| Mir |
I'm trying to find out how these interact by raw, if people house rule this, and if there is any agreement about how they should work.
I looked through some of the old threads and mostly what I found was by raw if you take a prestige class you probably don't get any of the benefits of your wizard school(other than those you have already gotten). There was some statement though that this wasn't completely clear and reading it myself I found in very unclear. Given the threads were fairly old I thought I'd check and see if there has been any more discussion of the issue.
How I see things is:
All wizards take a school though it may be the Universalist School.
The Universalist School should be equal in power to those that specialize.
If you specialize you get an extra spell added to your spells for the day from your school.
As a Universalist if you take a prestige classes you keep all your schools, your starting ability (Hand of the Apprentice) you get. You only loose the 8th level ability (assuming you started before 8th lv)
As a specialist if you take a prestige class you loose the extra spell a day (other than for those levels you have actual wizard levels in). You still have lost 2 schools of magic. You do not get any increases in abilities that go up by level. You gain none of the new abilities.
The universalist here has given up one thing, the specialist has given up almost everything except mostly starting abilities that are not effective at higher levels (which is why they increase in abilities as they go up in level.)
While I agree it would be overpowered for the specialist to keep all their abilities it would seem that they should keep the extra spell they get from their school as this is part of their spells for the day.
It also seems like maybe their starting abilities should continue to grow as to remain relevant for play.
Anyone have any thoughts on this? Or anyone know if Pazio has chipped in somewhere on this subject that I have missed.
| Grick |
Do the extra spells per day include the extra spell given from there school? This seems by definition part of their spells per day.
Spells per Day is the value in the "Spells per Day" column in Table: Wizard.
However, the Arcane School class feature is gained at level 1. That class feature gives you an additional spell slot of each spell level you can cast.
Since the increase in caster level can allow you to cast higher level spells, you're still granted those spell slots, since the only thing preventing you from using them at level 1 is the inability to cast spells of that level.
So I think you should still get your extra spell slot from your school, but it's not because of spells per day, it's because you are able to cast spells of that level.
| Zoukiji |
I have been looking all over to find out what the thoughts of arcane school power progression is like with prestige classes and although this place seems to be a little old I find it appropriate for the following.
It is my understanding that as long as someone has 1 level of wizard, they will gain their respectable arcane school powers when they arrive at the necessary level requirement to unlock them. Whether it be with wizard levels, multiclass levels or prestige class levels.
The reason why I am stating this, is that under every school power, the requisite for unlocking the 8th level powers all state that "At 8th level, you can use this ability..", meaning that it doesn't require you to be an 8th level wizard, like for example with bonus feats, where the text reads: "At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, a wizard gains a bonus feat". Arcane school is an ability which is given to the wizard and thereby unlocked at 1st level. Though, almost every 8th level arcane school power effectively uses the character's level of wizard to determine how powerful the power will be. This I consider as a balancing tool. Take for example the conjuration school's dimensional step power at 8th level. It goes as follows:
"At 8th level, you can use this ability to teleport up to 30 feet per wizard level per day as a standard action. This teleportation must be used in 5-foot increments and such movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You can bring other willing creatures with you, but you must expend an equal amount of distance for each additional creature brought with you."
Thus, if someone were to only take 1 level of wizard, this ability would be considerable nerfed, as the 1st level power of the conjuration school's teleportation alternative, known as Shift is almost as good and available at 1st level.
Summing up:
Arcane school is an ability at 1st level
Arcane school powers do not mention required wizard levels to attain them, but instead just levels, i.e. Character Level.
This is balanced due to 8th level powers being "powered" by wizard levels only.
What are your thoughts on this, people?
- Zoukiji
| Whale_Cancer |
Because reasons:
Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character's level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class.
| Zoukiji |
Because reasons:
Quote:Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character's level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class.
Not to nitpick, but I read "most of which" in that quote, which technically makes my statement valid, as it doesn't state the requirement of actual Wizard levels and the fact that it is unlocked at 1st level
| Whale_Cancer |
Whale_Cancer wrote:Not to nitpick, but I read "most of which" in that quote, which technically makes my statement valid, as it doesn't state the requirement of actual Wizard levels and the fact that it is unlocked at 1st levelBecause reasons:
Quote:Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character's level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class.
Devs have chimed in on this. This is the way it has always been done and as it shall always be done. The game assumes you aren't multiclassing because pathfinder hates multiclassing.
You will find it very hard to find a class ability that doesn't simply say 'level'; that is to say, 'most' class abilities use class level (I can't think of any off the top of my head that don't).
If all class abilities use this same language, isn't this the 'most of which' the rules speak of?
| Zoukiji |
Also, can you imagine how absurd multiclassing was if abilities that said 'level' meant character level? Everyone would dip into classes just far enough to get these scaling abilities.
A fair point, but I did take this into consideration if you read my initial post. The 8th level arcane school power may not need you to be 8th level wizard, but the power still relies on your wizard level to determine its potential. This I believe is a good way of balancing things. Additionally, there are other things which make multiclassing a bad idea which most people know about. Such as missing favored class benefits and total attack progression and so forth.
This is why I am actually bringing this up. I understand it as I read it and I don't think it's imbalanced. I would like to hear some more thoughts about this issue though
| BillyGoat |
The phrasing of the statement
Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that reply on a character's level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or hit dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class.
To parse this through the English language:
1- Effects and prerequisites depend on the character's total level or hit dice. = Unless otherwise noted, assume that Hit Dice determine effectiveness.
2- Except class abilities. = Class abilities do not use Hit Dice to determine effectiveness.
3- Most class abilities are based on the number of levels in the relevant class. = Unless otherwise noted, assume that class abilities use class level to determine effectiveness.
Any other reading of that paragraph is difficult to justify and will be shot-down by any GM with more than a day's experience.
| Whale_Cancer |
Change Shape (Sp): At 8th level, you can change your shape for a number of rounds per day equal to your wizard level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive. This ability otherwise functions like beast shape II or elemental body I. At 12th level, this ability functions like beast shape III or elemental body II.
Bonus Feats: At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, a wizard gains a bonus feat. At each such opportunity, he can choose a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, or Spell Mastery. The wizard must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including caster level minimums. These bonus feats are in addition to the feats that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. The wizard is not limited to the categories of item creation feats, metamagic feats, or Spell Mastery when choosing those feats.
Notice how they use the same language? If things worked the way you suggest, if you had 1 level in wizard you would get bonus feats at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th character levels.
Since all class abilities are worded like this, you would end up only needing one 1 level in each class to get all the abilities of each class.
Anyway, this is a pretty settled issue as far as I'm concerned, so I'll leave it at that. Let other people chime in.
| Darkwolf117 |
Class features = reliant on class level.
Look at this way: If it says 'most' class features are reliant on class levels, and the class feature doesn't say otherwise, then it does fall under the most.
As for not thinking its unbalanced... it pretty much is. That would mean you could take a 1 level dip in every class, get all the features that don't specify class level (pretty much only through meticulous reading) and, yes, they'd all be nerfed if they're reliant on class levels for their capability, but it still makes a complete mess of half-functioning powers, and gives a bunch of abilities the character should not really have access to. It's not a smooth way to go about things.
| Zoukiji |
I see valid points all across, but I do not see the wording being the same in the example of a wizard's bonus feats, since 1, they are clearly labelled across the wizard's level table on specific levels and 2, the wording is "At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, >a wizard< gains a bonus feat"
I still see the overall ability to be a level one ability, unlocking at 8th level seperately for one of the powers, although I do realize that the wording doesn't specify that there is talk of an exception of the rule in this case. I think the wording is pretty spot on with most classes in this regard, clearly specifying the class which is required for the ability.
All in all, I think that this issue should be better clarified, as any situation like this, where definition is a problem, hurts the game.
As for if it's unbalanced and there's a chance that people would dip into all classes with 1 level, I do not think that would be very wise, as it comes with a lot of multiclassing penalties
| Darkwolf117 |
As for if it's unbalanced and there's a chance that people would dip into all classes with 1 level, I do not think that would be very wise, as it comes with a lot of multiclassing penalties
Certainly. It's more the general idea though. Why would it make sense to get the abilities, functioning at weird levels, rather than just always being contingent on actual class levels? Just seems like a really complicated and messy way to go about it.
And most certainly not the intent on how the powers are unlocked/used.
| Quandary |
Guess what? It has been clarified, by Paizo posts here on the boards. Search JB or SKR's post history.
If it worked otherwise, PrCs like Rage Prophet wouldn't need to say that Rage Prophet levels count for scaling of abilities you have.
I can't think of any examples off hand, but it is possible for Class Abilities to scale off total levels (all class levels and any other HD), but in that case they will say 'character level' to distinguish from levels of that class (which is the assumption when 'level' is referenced within a class description, as BillyGoat's quote of the rules makes clear: CRB pg. 31).
-----------------------------------
To the original topic, the standard caster PrC language doesn't specify from which class feature or table you gain spells per day or spells known, so if your base casting class gains those from some differently named ability but that still is an additional spell slot per day or spell known (spontaneous), you get that when advancing the PrC (albeit the PrC may not have full 1:1 casting progression). E.g. even though Rage Prophet grants a few new Spells Known of it's own, you still get the Spells Known from the Base Casting Class, both from the standard table and from the Mystery Spells, since both are 'Spells Known' (thats the only way you can cast them as a Spontaneous Caster).
| Zoukiji |
I have DMed a lot and am currently a PC in a campaign, playing as a wizard, wanting to prestige class into Diabolist (Yes :) An evil campaign) And I found that if arcane schools only unlock with wizard levels, why would anyone try to prestige class before the 8th level. I understood the rules as already mentioned but I could see the inclarity too. I personally think that if you need to take 3 levels beyond the 5th just to get that ability and then prestige class, it makes prestige classing for wizards just that more less viable.
I'm not trying to power game, just trying to look at it from a balance perspective, and the way it is written is really unclear. It's just a shame that prestige classes are so difficult to settle into imho. Oh well, guess I'll have to wait 3 long levels or just dip 1 level into the prestige class and back to wizard. It all just seems like it is counter intuitive.
| Quandary |
So what? It works the same way for Martial classes, you need the Class Levels to get Class Abilities, and to scale Class Abilities. Mixing Fighter and Barbarian is a trade-off. If you like the Wizard abilities, you should probably stay Wizard. If you like the PrC abilities more, you can go PrC. Dipping into PrC, back into Base Class, and back into PrC is more than legit, I often recommend considering that with PrCs like Rage Prophet.
Look at Paizo's commentary on the Archmage PrC concept, they clearly consider that there is a reason to stay in the Base Class all the way, and while Favored Class is an additional benefit, it's not really that prime reason: Class Abilities are. Generic stats like BAB and Caster Progression are really just part of the meal in Pathfinder, so PrCs that advance those are inherently meant to give you only part of what you would get from the Base Class. Think of each Base Class as it's own PrC and that's how it's meant to be in Pathfinder. And yes, considering that you are giving something up, PrCs are (generalizing) not as clear-cut 'higher powered' as they were in 3.5... Again, Paizo's specific goal with Pathfinder.