Im my homeland over here, much more people than i myself believed can´t read and understand english that well it seems. So they want to buy the books in german to play and understand the rules, what is fine, but most stuff i and some friends own are english, so this is a problem for aquiring new players and also for going into PFS direction.
There are some other points.
First i have to say, the translations are really weird in some parts and many things were translated badly, with old-fashioned language and odd terms. It has some similarity to a certain german RPG which many people don´t like because of its medieval/renaissance weirdness and special style.
Then the pricing.
Of course if i buy something here, i have to play shipment.
But i can also buy it on amazon for example and not pay shipment.
And then, the price in € is the same numbers as in $, while 1$ is about 0,7€? That´s not so cool somehow, while the books need eternities to get translated it seems. Ultimate Combat is still not out in german.
Also pdf´s are not available there, what would be really nice.
Is there any chance that there will be german pdf´s coming?
That would really be a great help in making the game more popular here and also expanding PFS.
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Paizo really isn't responsible for the german pdfs, that would be Ulisses Spiele.
Regarding the pricing: in printing business you can generally say: the bigger the print run the lower the cost per book. You probably realize that the print run of german books is far, far smaller than the print run of paizos original books which results in higher prices per book - that is the same with different rpgs by different companies.
As far as I know (perhaps one of them will chime in here, too) the translators are not working full time for Ulisses (again, Germany is too small a market to pay a full time translation team for Pathfinder) so they take their time for the translations - especially for rules heavy hardcovers, since it is far more difficult to translate new rules (avoiding naming pitfalls, chosing the right words so everyone understands the rule and there is not too much leverage for interpretation).
Regarding the translation: First, taking a lot of the allready translated rules terms from 3.5 was important to keep Pathfinder accessible for old time players. The language for the 'fluff' is probably a matter of taste - I would find it much more irritating if the overall feel of the translated books was to modern (the english terms may be used in contemporary english, but some of them are old-fashioned, too) - and the German roleplaying game thet 'many people don't like' is still the most succesful German rpg - and considering the fact that more gritty, more semi historic rpgs like harn are and were more succesful in germany than most incarnations of D&D I doubt the medieval/renaissance feel is a problem for most german customers (the high cost for said rpg as well as the rather clunky and inaccessible mechanics might be, as might be the suffocating metaplot, but I digress).
Overall, I think you should take your complaints to Ulisses Spiele, unless they really blow it, it is unlikely that paizo would get involved.
Da du geschrieben hast, dass du das englische nicht so gut verstehst, sehe ich keinen Grund, das du dir mein geseier auf englisch durchlesen musst :-)
Paizo ist für die veröffentlichung deutscher PDFs nicht verantwortlich, sondern ausschließlich Ulisses Spiele.
Was die Preise angeht: Im Druckgewerbe ist es generell so, daß gilt: je höher die Auflage, desto niedriger der Preis des einzelnen Buches. Du weisst wahrscheinlich, daß die Auflage der deutschen Bücher aufgrund des sehr viel kleineren Marktes sehr, sehr viel kleiner ist, als die von Paizos Originalen - daher ist der Preis entsprechend höher - das ist auch bei anderen Spielsystemen von anderen Herstellern so.
Soweit ich weiss, ist keiner der Übersetzer fest bei Ulisses angestellt - ein Übersetzerteam Vollzeit zu beschäftigen gibt der deutsche Markt einfach nicht her - darum brauchen die Übersetzer auch mehr Zeit für ihre Arbeit - das gilt besonders für Regelintensive Hardcover, schließlich müssen sie darauf achten, möglichst eindeutige Begriffe zu verwenden und die Regeln so klar zu übersetzen, dass kein zu großer interpretationsspielraum bleibt.
Was die Übersetzung angeht: zunächst gilt es, Regelbegriffe aus der 3.5 Übersetzung weitestgehend zu übernehmen, um Pathfinder ffür altgediente Spieler zugänglich zu halten. Was die Sprache für Stimmungstexte angeht, so ist das sicherlich Geschmacksache. Ich fände es viel irritierender, wenn die Übersetzung zu modern klingen würde.
Auch einige der englischen Begriffe sind eher altmodisch, selbst dann, wenn sie durchaus auch in modernem Ausdruck verwendung finden. Das andere Rollenspiel (nennen wir es ruhig DSA, Paizo hat keine Probleme damit, Konkurrenzprodukte zu benennen, anders als Ulisses ;-), mag bei einigen unbeliebt sein, aber es ist immer noch das erfolgreichste deutschsprachige Rollenspiel. Und in Anbetracht der Tatsache, dass pseudohistorische Rollenspiele wie Harn in Deutschland meist
erfolgreicher laufen/liefen, als die diversen D&D Inkarnationen, scheint es nicht die altmodische Sprache zu sein, die auf dem deutschen Markt ein Problem darstellen könnte (hohe Kosten, mangelnde zugänglichkeit, klotzige Regeln und ein erstickend dichter Metaplot schon eher, aber das ist ein anderes Thema ;-)
Insgesamt denke ich, Du wärst mit deiner Kritik bei Ulisses Spiele besser aufgehoben, ich glaube, Paizo wird sich nict einmischen, solange Ulisses nicht irgendetwas total versaut oder Vertäge bricht.
I don't think the OP has problems understanding the English versions - but potential candidates (s)he encounters while "advertising" for our hobby, i. e. the hurdle drawing new people to the gaming table is set quite high - higher than (s)he believed - due to the language.
Ruyan.
Good luck, Hayato. I lived in Germany for a couple of years and noticed that most products were 1$/1€ (except beer). It's too bad that the translations are old fashioned; I know most Bavarians and many Hessens speak English very well (ok, young Bavarians and Hessens) and I would imagine that most of the rest of the country does, too. I would have guessed that a less awkward translation would have been easy to make happen with English being a mandatory schule subject.
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I don't think the OP has problems understanding the English versions - but potential candidates (s)he encounters while "advertising" for our hobby, i. e. the hurdle drawing new people to the gaming table is set quite high - higher than (s)he believed - due to the language.
Ruyan.
Urghh. Sorry, blame that (along with most of the spelling errors ;-)) on the fact that after a nightshift I run on reserve power right now. Perhaps the bilingual text will be of use anyway.
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As a member of the Translation team for the German Pathfinder, I can only confirm most things, Feytharn has said.
1) With the Campaign Setting line we are under the American price (17,95€ to 19,95$). The French editions use 1USD to 1€ as conversion rate, but you also have to pay for the Player's Guide of the Adventure Paths (3 to 5 Eurosfor the PDF). The Italian books are more expensive than the German ones (i.e. an AP volume 22,90€ to 24,90€ and 40 USd Hardcover rulebooks for 44,90€). The main thing that makes or breaks the price for a book, is the size of the print run and we can only dream of Paizo's numbers (or even a small percentage of these numbers). They play in a whole different ballpark.
2) Lots of online shops do not charge for shipping when you order more than a specified amount (for some shops this amount is 100 Euros, but for others the limit is 20 Euros or even less - Magierspiele, Sphaerenmeister, f-shop).
3) PDF's are available at ulisses-ebooks.de
4) Most of the translation of glossary terms have been discussed at length in our weekly Skype conferences. Our translation glossary now accounts for more than 20000 terms. If a new rules term comes up it has to compete with many many others that have already been used in previous books. Even Paizo makes errors with their own glossary using the same rules term for two different things in two different books.
5) Ultimate Combat is in layout (copy editing and printing still to be done), Rise of the Runelords is in the finishing stages of translation and Bestiary 3 is well underway in translation. We publish 2 books a month (plus hardcovers, 3-4 per year), that is more than 200 pages per month, about 500 glossary terms per month, plus web enhancements, blogs. In addition, every book issued for Pathfinder has been converted to Pathfinder (the Falcon's Hollow modules or Into the Darkness and many many more).
6) If you take these books and read them, they are actually fun to read (maybe not so much the rules heavy stuff, but the adventures and setting descriptions are). Sure, there may be some terms that may not fit your own style, but that is always in the eye of the <<Insert IP-protected monster here>>. In the years we have done the translations we have learned a LOT about quality and I think I can say, that our efforts (in addition to our day job) have reached a quality level that has not been seen in German translations of D&D for a long long time.
And now in German:
Ich kann die meisten Dinge von Fethyrn nur bestätigen.
1) Mit den Kampagnenbänden liegen wir allerdings unter den amerikanischen Preisen (17,95 € gegenüber 19,95$). Die Französische Ausgabe hat dengleichen Preis, allerdings musst du dort für einen Spielerleitfaden eine Abenteuerpfades drei bis fünf Euro bezahlen. Die italienischen Bücher sind teurer als die deutschen Bände (d.h. ein AP-Band kostet 22,90€ bis 24,90€ und 40 USD Hardcover-Regelbände für 44,90€). Das, was den Preis eines Buches bestimmt, ist die Auflagehöhe. Wir können von den Zahlen Paizos nur träumen (oder auch nur geringen Anteilen davon) Paizo spielt in einer komplett anderen Liga.
2) Viele Onlineshops berechnen keine Frachtgebühr, wenn su mehr als einen bestimtmen Betrag bestellst. Bei ienigen liegt die Grenze bei 100 Euro, aber bei anderen liegt die granze bei 20 Euros oder weniger (Magierspiele, Sphärenmeister oder der F-Shop).
3) PDF's erhälst du bei www.ulisses-ebooks.de
4) Fast alle Begriffe werden in einer Skypekonferenz besprochen (die wöchentlich 2-3 Stunden in Anspruch nimmt... (oder mehr). Die Begriffe, die nicht besprochen werden, sind durch Bücher der Edition 3.5 festgelegt (daher gibt es nach wie vor den Hexenmeister). INzwischen hat das Überstzungsglossar mehr als 20.000 Begriffe. Wenn also ein neuer Regelbegriff auftaucht, steht er in Konkurrenz mit den Umengen an Begriffen, die es schon gibt (daher heißt der Summoner z.B. nicht Beschwörer, da dieser Begriff schon vom Conjurer vorbelegt war). Inzwischen macht auch Paizo Fehler mit ihrem eigenen GLossar, wo sie den selben Regelbegriff in zwei verschiendenen Büchern für zwei verschiedene Dinge verwendet haben. Bei uns sind diese Fehler bisher noch nicht aufgetreten und ein professioneller Übersetzer (so richtig mit Studium und Abschluss) hat uns wegen der Qualität unseres Glossars über den Klee gelobt.
5) Ultimate Combat (Ausbauregeln II: Kampf) ist im Layout (Korrektorat und Drucken fehlen noch), Rise of the Runelords (Das Erwachen der Runenherrscher) befindet sich im Endspurt der Übersetzung und das Bestiary 3 (MHB III) ist auch schon gut unterwegs in der Übersetzung. Wir veröffentlichen 2 Bücher pro Monat (plus Hardcoverbände, 3-4 im Jahr), eine Veröffnetlichungsrate, von der D&D-Fans bisher nur geträumt haben. Das sind mehr als 200 Seiten pro Monat, mehr als 500 Glossarbegriffe, dazu Web-Erweiterungen, Blogs und mal ein freies Modul dazu (D0 und D1.5) Außerdem sind alle Bände auf deutsch für Pathfinder konvertiert.
6) Wenn du dir die Bücher nimmst und liest, wirst du merken, dass es Spaß macht sie zu lesen (vielleicht sind die Regelbände etwas trocken, aber definitiv die Abenteuer und Weltenbeschreibungen). Natürlich wird es immer mal einen Begriff geben, der nicht deiner Meinung entspricht, aber so etwas liegt immer im Auge des <<Hier bitte ein durch IP geschütztes Monster einfügen>>. In den Jahren, wo wir jetzt übersetzen haben wir eine MENGE über Qualität gelernt und ich kann (hoffentlich) behaupten, dass die Pathfinder-Übersetzugnen durch unseren Einsatz (zusätzlich neben unserem eigentlichen Beruf) einen Qualitätsstandard erreicht haben, den es schon seit langer Zeit nicht mehr bei deutschen D&D-Übersetzungen gab.
7) Egal, ob du des Englischen mächtig bist oder nicht. Es macht eine Menge aus, ob du beim Beschreiben eins Raumes oder einer Situation auf einen Text in deiner Muttersprache zurückgreifen kannst, oder parallel dabei mit übersetzen musst. Entweder machst du dir diese Arbeit dann selber, um es richtig vorbereitet darstellen zu können, oder es gibt ein denglisches Radebrechen am Tisch, welches komplett die Atmosphäre tötet.
PS: I think, it would be better to continue this discussion on the web page of Ulisses Spiele in German (i.e. www.ulisses-spiele.de).
Wow, i didn´t expect so much attention here.
Most of my problems stem from the fact, that potential new players are scared by the english or some just plainly lack the language skills (even with university background).
I see your points and credit them. Especially point number 4 of Mr von Speckelsens argumentation might explain a lot of stuff.
Also i searched for the pdf´s on f-shop, didnt know about the ulysses site. I will take a look at it later.
Right now im playing with a group who comes from 3.5 and they own CRB, APG and Beastiary in german. We have some issues in communication, because quite often i don´t know what they are talking about. They say a name of something and i don´t know what it is, because i didn´t read the german versions in big parts yet (no time) and just can´t grasp what it is in english although i know most of the english content.
I will also look at the ulisses-spiele forum.
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As one who is a native English speaker, I find this thread fascinating. I forget that there are nuances of the language that don't translate well into other languages. I'm curious to know some of these terms that, for us English speakers, is obvious but when translated makes the non-English speaker look at us like we're Bat S!+& crazy.
PS - The German name for Rise of the Runelords just sounds totally awesome!
Schön Dich hier zu treffen. Du solltest das nicht als persönliche Beleidigung oder Anschuldigung auffassen, so ist es nämlich keinesfalls gemeint. Einfach kommen mir manche Begriffe komisch bis belustigend vor und da bin ich nicht alleine. Dass so eine Übersetzung natürlich nicht einfach ist ist klar, das mit den älteren D&D Sachen war mir auch so nicht bewusst, macht aber Sinn. Auch war mir die Web-Präsenz nicht bekannt.
Ich würde einfach hier in Süddeutschland eine größere Fangemeinde aufbauen und wenn es meine zeit erlaubt auch PFS einführen, bzw etablieren. Bei den Versuchen dabei bin ich auf oben genannte Probleme gestossen.
Nach den bisherigen Erklärungen kann ich die vorliegende Situation schon besser sehen und zumindest teilweise verstehen. Bißchen meckern darf man ja wohl trotzdem, ist ja was menschliches. Anbei danke für die Hinweise mit den Webseiten und so, das wird mir in Zukunft einiges erleichtern.
Es ist auch klar, dass Übersetzungen Geld kosten und kleine Verlage nicht so billig drucken können. Trotzdem kann man $=€ schon etwas kritisch betrachten. Das muss aber nicht nur an euch liegen, das könnte genauso an Paizo liegen. Schließlich bekommen die auch was von dem Kuchen ab und müssen sich halt fragen wie sie mit Leuten in Übersee umgehen.
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** spoiler omitted **
You should've written this post in english as well!
Anyway, I am a member of the german translation team, and just to say it again, we do this in our spare-time!
In the last years the quality of our translations got far better than at the beginning.
You really should check out the german messageboards @ Ulisses Forum
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@Thread starter:
As mentioned above: Better to keep this topic to german rpg forums. This is the wrong place and the wrong adressee. You talk about Ulisses products, and it looks somewhat strange if you complain about the German version in the American forum.
And referring to pricing of German Pathfinder products: Please read carefully Oliver's comments about other translations - the German version is less expensive than the other translation versions.
Regarding translation quality: Former D&D translations did partially suffer from bad quality. So yes: Of course we feel addressed by your criticism. Besides we welcome precise criticism helping us to further increase translation quality - so please head to the forums at www.ulisses-spiele.de and share your observations.
Kind regards,
Günther
---
Head of German PF translation team
Ok i will join the ulisses forums in the next days.
I do think this was the right place for this though.
I didn´t even know german forums existed and probably there are others who don´t know, so this should be linked here somehow. In a way that other players can find.
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What am I to respond? Nearly every major RPG company sports its own customer forum - also in Germany. And Ulisses isn't exactly the smallest fish in the German rpg pond, even though the pond is considerably smaller than in the U.S.. ;)
This is a direct link to the Pathfinder section of the Ulisses forum.
See you there,
Günther
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I am pretty damn impressed how many members of the translation team came to this board the explain the situation – and agree that the German board is the better place to discuss these things.
I am very surprised that they do all the translation in their spare time – of course some quick google searches show, that they do have real jobs.
As someone who trained to translator for several years it doesn't really surprise me that the work is done by a small number of motivated individuals – it would be next to impossible to pay professional translators.
I personally prefer the original English versions, since I started with them (there are other reasons, like impatience and easier access to third party material), but since about half of my gaming group prefers to read the material in a German Version, we own several books in both languages.
From what I gathered from one of my players who ran Serpents Skull out of the German books, he noticed no problems (ok one but it faithfully translated from the English version).
I haven't noticed problems with the translation (ok it's longer most of the time... but I blame the German language for that). And if you somehow think that Ulisses is slow when it comes to the translations... they are actually way quicker than the Feder and Schwert (the publisher of D&D 3.5 and 4 till ...well).
Of course the translations will never be perfect for someone who can read the original, but there are some very good reasons:
they pretty much have to use most of the translations used for German editions of D&D to keep the consistency
the German language sometimes doesn't have enough words in various areas (translation the Names of the various types of ghosts comes to mind)
some names sound great in English, but the direct translations to German sound terrible
tl:dr The translators are doing a great job, and if Ulisses starts to offer book+pdf subscriptions, it would pretty much double my pathfinder subscriptions (they did this with the DSA magazine).
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Yes, in my group we also use the english version of the books (because we do so since the red box, when germany didn't even know what D&D was :), with two persons using the german books.
We also use the english terms, like AC, HIT POINTS, etc.
I love to use foreign names, so I mostly also stick to the original names - still saying Sandpoint, not Sandspitze. :)
But for the translations we decided to go all the german way. I had people at conventions telling me, that our translations suck, because we translated Wizard into german. Or, that some monsters names suck as well. Well, I think you can't please every single customer...
Our glossary of german terms is a huge monster of an excel-file, getting bigger every week, after our Skype-Sessions, where we discuss terms. That's the hardest part of the work, because german is a language, were you need much more words to get the same thing said (which I like sometimes, because its a very expressive thing). BUT - there are times, where we have english terms, where there is only one term for it in german, which makes coming up with names for feats, monster abilities, etc., very, very hard. Sometimes we hit the nail on its head, sometimes, we have to take a huge detour, to get the point across.
Well, we try our best, and don't take it lightly - promised! Mistakes that find their way into a final product hurt us more than the german customers...
Most of us are long-time players, having a playing experience of 20+ years. You can also see in our messageboard names here, that most of us have big subscriptions here at Paizo and we have many guys who love the system and Golarion, trying their best to bring this world to life in german and Germany as well!
I often wondered about that price gap myself. Now that it has been explained it seems kinda obvious though :P
Most people I play with prefer the English original books even though we all speak German in-game. this results in an odd English/German mix that sounds very strange to an outsider.
The reason is that it is far easier to search for stuff if questions arise (or to look for feats/spells) and the English terms are often better fitting.
Also it is true that some of the German terms sound really corny or odd, but in most cases I would not have found a better term describing it. Many German terms have much narrower definitions than the English equivalent and in a fantastic setting/system like this you probably need more open-ended terms.
Anyway, interesting thread :)
Proud to be part of a legendary thread bringing RPG-related concerns of ROW to the US *smirks*
Ruyan.
ROW = Rest of World
Yeah, that issue came up when people asked for extra PFS forums for each US state and I asked them to not forget the rest of the world.
BTW: Keep up the good work, guys! I pointed one of my players to the forums of Ulisses, hoping he will compilate our own little list of translations for use in our games, hehe.
Ruyan.