Do epic weapons bypass DR/-? I think that they would, but I can't find anywhere that talks about epic weapons and DR.
Nope. Nothing bypass DR/- except Smite that I know of.
PS:PF does not have epic level weapons yet, but they didn't do it in 3.5 either.
I ask because the Tarasque has DR/Epic so his natural attacks should count as epic. If epic weapons do not bypass DR/-, then an armor master fighter in heavy adamantine armor with freedom of movement renders the tarasque almost useless.
How would it be almost useless? I'm pretty certain the Tarrasque will deal far more damage than the fighter's DR even on a minimum damage roll (especially once you factor in Power Attack), so it will always be able to deal a good chunk of damage if it hits.
Edit: The armor master will have DR 15/- at 19th level. A power attacking Tarrasque gets +16 damage to all of its attacks (except only +8 to the tail slap). So even with minimum damage rolls, the Tarrasque will deal 89 damage to the armor master if it hits with all attacks during a full attack.
I am pretty sure that is an overstatement. The highest DR I have been able to muster up is with a barbarian, and that was over 13. I am sure Big T can do more than 13 points of damage per hit.
I could have gotten it to 20 most likely, and Big T still could have hurt the barbarian.
Greater Penetrating Strike. It bypasses 10 points of typed DR and up to 5 points of DR/-.
Of course, its also a 16th level fighter feat, so...
The armor master in heavy adamantine armor has DR 15/-. The tarrasques attacks:
bite +37 (4d8+15/15–20/×3 plus grab) [Avg: 33 damage)
2 claws +37 (1d12+15), [Avg: 21.5 damage]
2 gores +37 (1d10+15), [Avg: 20.5 damage]
tail slap +32 (3d8+7) [Avg: 20.5 damage]
All attacks, with an average damage roll, will still damage the fighter, even with his DR 15/-.
Nope. Nothing bypass DR/- except Smite that I know of.
Lantern archons do.
And then you can subtract 8 from the attack rolls and add 16 damage to everything for power attack.
The real bonus the armor master has is being immune to crits, since Big T can crit on 15-20 with his bite.
The armor master in heavy adamantine armor has DR 15/-. The tarrasques attacks:
bite +37 (4d8+15/15–20/×3 plus grab) [Avg: 33 damage)
2 claws +37 (1d12+15), [Avg: 21.5 damage]
2 gores +37 (1d10+15), [Avg: 20.5 damage]
tail slap +32 (3d8+7) [Avg: 20.5 damage]All attacks, with an average damage roll, will still damage the fighter, even with his DR 15/-.
If you have the improved stalwart feat, couldn't you get up to DR 25/-?
And with DR 15/-, it reduces the damage from 137.5/round to 47.5/round. That's a huge difference.
Nope. Nothing bypass DR/- except Smite that I know of.Lantern archons do.
Those are magical attacks which bypass DR anyway. I was speaking of nonmagical attacks which is what DR is designed to protect you from.
The armor master's ability says it doesn't stack with any other form of DR except that of adamantine armor.
But even if you did have DR 25/-, a power-attacking Tarrasque dealing average damage would still get through with 77.5 damage per full-attack (if it hits with all 6 attacks).
Stalwart doesn't stack with armor, but it does stack with class DR, so you would end up with DR 22/- and eliminate even more damage.
And with DR 15/-, it reduces the damage from 137.5/round to 47.5/round. That's a huge difference.
You forget the power attack.
If you have the improved stalwart feat, couldn't you get up to DR 25/-?
Even if you could, the tarrasque does have power attack, making the damages:
bite +29 melee, 4d8+31 [Avg: 49]
2 claws +29 melee, 1d12+31 [Avg: 37.5]
2 gores +29 melee, 1d10+31 [Ave: 36.5]
tailslap +24 melee, 3d8+15 [Avg: 28.5]
Still overcomes the damage reduction.
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Yes, 20th level PCs that are specialized with gear and abilities can do impressive things.
Now show me how many rounds it would take him to drop Big T, considering he also can't bypass its DR and Big T regens 40 per round. And the fact that he can't actually kill it at all. Or that it can just run around him and eat the wizard/cleric/archer.
I'm not saying that he's not going to get hit. I'm saying that he can negate 90 damage a round.
I ask because the Tarasque has DR/Epic so his natural attacks should count as epic. If epic weapons do not bypass DR/-, then an armor master fighter in heavy adamantine armor with freedom of movement renders the tarasque almost useless.
I think I remember reading once that an epic weapon had an enhancement bonus of +6 or higher, or something like that. I can't remember where I read it,
That fighter has also give up all of his armor and weapon training. With Big T's regeneration I am sure it will die before the fighter will.
As for Improved stalwart, yeah you can if you can get a +10 dodge bonus to your AC. That feat trades out the dodge bonus for DR.
So the ORIGIONAL question, do you think that epic weapons should bypass DR/-?
I'm not saying that he's not going to get hit. I'm saying that he can negate 90 damage a round.
And he would still take an average of 93.5 damage per round from a power attack tarrasque. Even with DR 22/-, the best the fighter does is halve the average damage.
So the ORIGIONAL question, do you think that epic weapons should bypass DR/-?
No. Of course not. That is what DR/epic is for. DR/- is not supposed to overcame with manufactured or natural weapons. That is the whole point of it.
I ask because the Tarasque has DR/Epic so his natural attacks should count as epic. If epic weapons do not bypass DR/-, then an armor master fighter in heavy adamantine armor with freedom of movement renders the tarasque almost useless.I think I remember reading once that an epic weapon had an enhancement bonus of +6 or higher, or something like that. I can't remember where I read it,
It's in Universal Monster Rules:
A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons—that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures' natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
But that is not really relevant to the original question.
Yes, 20th level PCs that are specialized with gear and abilities can do impressive things.
Now show me how many rounds it would take him to drop Big T, considering he also can't bypass its DR and Big T regens 40 per round. And the fact that he can't actually kill it at all. Or that it can just run around him and eat the wizard/cleric/archer.
You most definitely can kill Big T. A 20th level party should have little to fear from Big T.
So the ORIGIONAL question, do you think that epic weapons should bypass DR/-?
No. I don't think a paladin's smite should bypass DR/- either (I know it does).
***
By the way, I don't believe stalwart can stack with the armor master. While stalwart says it stacks with class abilities, the armor master specifically says it only stacks with adamantine armor.
You most definitely can kill Big T. A 20th level party should have little to fear from Big T.
Actually, there is no (known) way to kill the tarrasque in Pathfinder.
Regeneration (Ex) No form of attack can suppress the tarrasque's regeneration—it regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect. If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains. It can be banished or otherwise transported as a means to save a region, but the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered.
Wish or Miracle works in 3.5, but not in Pathfinder.
No I don't think epic weapons "should" bypass DR either.
Are has a point. It seems the rules are colliding. It is worth an FAQ.
I think lantern archond can do that too.Nope. Nothing bypass DR/- except Smite that I know of.
Someone already mentioned that, and I explained why I did not mention it. :)
You most definitely can kill Big T. A 20th level party should have little to fear from Big T.Actually, there is no (known) way to kill the tarrasque in Pathfinder.
Regeneration (Ex) No form of attack can suppress the tarrasque's regeneration—it regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect. If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains. It can be banished or otherwise transported as a means to save a region, but the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered.Wish or Miracle works in 3.5, but not in Pathfinder.
There are a few ways. One that I know of is killing it with a death effect- which makes it count as dead for those three rounds- and then raising it as a skeleton or zombie, which strips it of its special abilities like regeneration. Then smash the weak undead creature and your tarrasque problem is gone forever.
Those are magical attacks which bypass DR anyway. I was speaking of nonmagical attacks which is what DR is designed to protect you from.Nope. Nothing bypass DR/- except Smite that I know of.Lantern archons do.
Technically it's extraordinary xD
Technically it's extraordinary xDThose are magical attacks which bypass DR anyway. I was speaking of nonmagical attacks which is what DR is designed to protect you from.Nope. Nothing bypass DR/- except Smite that I know of.Lantern archons do.
OK, fair enough.
How about they are not conventional weapons that use slashing bludeioning or peircing. :)
Regarding the original question, no. DR / - cannot be overcome save by Greater Penetrating Strike. Epic weapons can overcome DR / Epic, any materials, and any alignment-based DR.
Technically it's extraordinary xDThose are magical attacks which bypass DR anyway. I was speaking of nonmagical attacks which is what DR is designed to protect you from.Nope. Nothing bypass DR/- except Smite that I know of.Lantern archons do.
Not to derail the thread, but this got me curious - if a character has an anti-magic field up, can a lantern archon hover 30 ft. above his head and blast him with light rays, since they are an extraordinary attack?
Not to derail the thread, but this got me curious - if a character has an anti-magic field up, can a lantern archon hover 30 ft. above his head and blast him with light rays, since they are an extraordinary attack?
Yes. There is nothing magical about the lantern archons attack. Antimagic Field can only negate Spell-like (Sp) and Supernatural (Su) abilities. Extraordinary (Ex) abilities are always unaffected.
You most definitely can kill Big T. A 20th level party should have little to fear from Big T.Yes, 20th level PCs that are specialized with gear and abilities can do impressive things.
Now show me how many rounds it would take him to drop Big T, considering he also can't bypass its DR and Big T regens 40 per round. And the fact that he can't actually kill it at all. Or that it can just run around him and eat the wizard/cleric/archer.
My point was more that the armor master is a defensive specialist, so he himself does not have any method of significantly overcoming the T's defenses. Nor does one party member being hard to kill really give much of an edge for the rest of the party. If a full caster had a method of delivering touch spells through the fighter, it would be a good character for the fight.
It seems like the OP is posting this with the opinion that the Armor Master is broken, because a monster that relies on multiple natural attacks might have some difficulty with it. I don't think that's a problem, even if that monster is iconically powerful.
You most definitely can kill Big T. A 20th level party should have little to fear from Big T.Yes, 20th level PCs that are specialized with gear and abilities can do impressive things.
Now show me how many rounds it would take him to drop Big T, considering he also can't bypass its DR and Big T regens 40 per round. And the fact that he can't actually kill it at all. Or that it can just run around him and eat the wizard/cleric/archer.
My point was more that the armor master is a defensive specialist, so he himself does not have any method of significantly overcoming the T's defenses. Nor does one party member being hard to kill really give much of an edge for the rest of the party. If a full caster had a method of delivering touch spells through the fighter, it would be a good character for the fight.
It seems like the OP is posting this with the opinion that the Armor Master is broken, because a monster that relies on multiple natural attacks might have some difficulty with it. I don't think that's a problem, even if that monster is iconically powerful.
Oh, in that case I agree entirely. I personally dislike a good 90% of the fighter archtypes for being worse than core Fighter 90% of the time. DR 15/- is nice IF things are beating on you using non-magical physical attacks, but is useless against virtually anything that so much as looks like magic, and again requires enemies to be hitting you with physical attacks.
For your efforts, you pretty much lose all your offensive bite for being a Fighter and go from being a slaughtermeister who also has good physical defense to having great physical defense but effectively becoming the Warrior NPC class. What's worse is most of the archtype can be replicated with some armor enhancements (a +1 heavy fortification buckler gives you the majority of the archtype's abilities, and the archtype's DR doesn't function under certain conditions which is painful).
IMHO, it's a bad archtype. A core fighter could beat the tarrasque into submission, DR and regeneration be damned. It would take a few rounds, but a core Fighter can definitely do it if he's buffed properly. Heck, so can a Ranger or Paladin (BAB +20, +10 Str, +8-10 class features, before buffs like greater heroism, haste, enlarge person, and/or Inspire Courage puts him in auto-hit range of the Tarrasque's 40 AC with all attacks, and having easily +30 or more damage per hit).
Once the Tarrasque has been beaten into submission, the Fighter then coups it every round until it fails its save and dies (not difficult since the core Fighter's coup can easily hit for around DC 177 or die). Then you have one of the party's casters cast animate dead on the Tarrasque while it is dead (the tarrasque's special regeneration allows it to die for up to 3 rounds and then it comes back to life). By turning the Tarrasque into a skeleton or zombie the Tarrasque looses all of its special powers (including its near unbeatable regeneration) and becomes a big skeleton, and only around CR 10 and under your control. That or trap the soul works pretty good too.
EDIT: For those curious if the fighter could just stand there and take a beating from the Tarrasque, the answer is a resounding yes. We can mostly ignore the Fighter's AC at the moment (wielding a shield and using some feats, the Fighter can get an AC in the low 60s, but we're trying to kill the Tarrasque so our Fighter is two-handing it at the moment) but we can apply a 50% miss chance due to a displacement buff on the Fighter (either via the 3rd level spell or via a magic item like the cloak of displacement), which halves the incoming hits of the tarrasque (and thus halves his DPR to around 70 damage), easily allowing the Fighter to survive the Tarrasque's attack routine (if the Tarrasque swallows the Fighter then he basically just gave the fighter the win, since his internal AC is only 27, the Fighter will hit with all attacks at full power attack while only taking about 30 damage per round while inside the tarrasque (the acid damage is largely irrelevant due to a CL 11 resist energy either by a 1st-2nd level spell or a CL 11 potion).
A shield-based fighter is even harder for the Tarrasque to kill. Shield based Fighters can reach ACs high enough to render the Tarrasque impotent AND have the displacement effect on top of that (and even without two-handing the weapon can enjoy a nice +25 to damage and auto-hit territory on attacks).
That is also before we assume that the party will be debuffing the tarrasque, or healing the fighter. While the Fighter is carving his way through Big T, a telekinesis spell combined with a bag of holding full of liquid ice will turn Big T into a T-Cicle (a wizard can conjure 5 Vrocks who can each violently hurl 12 flasks of liquid ice at Big T, which equates to 210 no-save no-DR no-Spell Resistance damage each round).
Since the Tarrasque has 512 Hp and Regent 40, the wizard and Fighter could 2-man Big T with nothing more than brute force. At which point Big T is a goner. Against a full 20th level party of Fighter/Ranger/Paladin + Bard + Cleric + Wizard, Big T doesn't have a snowball's chance.
One perk for finishing off a Tarrasque (aside from insane experience gains) is that you get to look like a badass tearing the skeleton out of a massive creature.
One perk for finishing off a Tarrasque (aside from insane experience gains) is that you get to look like a badass tearing the skeleton out of a massive creature.
Prestidigitation for some cleaning and polishing and he'd look smashing next the fountain in the garden. Especially if you grew some rose-ivy on it. *sips non-alcoholic wine*
One perk for finishing off a Tarrasque (aside from insane experience gains) is that you get to look like a badass tearing the skeleton out of a massive creature.Prestidigitation for some cleaning and polishing and he'd look smashing next the fountain in the garden. Especially if you grew some rose-ivy on it. *sips non-alcoholic wine*
Well almost, it would be this spell instead.
If the tarrasque is still trying to hit you, sooner or later, it should just switch to trying to Combat Maneuver your face. (It has a +53 CMB, +57 if grapple)
Suddenly, 60 AC doesn't sound so cool :(
Also, REGENERATION OF UNSTOPPABLENESS!!!
EDIT: I just realized if you have slayed the Tarrasque, the bad guys should just shut up, cut their losses, and live the rest of their lives. If your nemesis can defeat the Tarrasque, he most likely can defeat you.
Also, onto the subject, asides from things that explicitly overcome DR, nothing overcomes DR. There really isn't rules for Epic weapons yet except those from 3.5 . Also, unless homebrewed, smite will do squat against a tarrasque (Smite Neutral! MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!!)
Displacement doesn't help that much against the Tarrasque, since it has scent and Blind-Fight.
However, let's assume the Tarrasque actually decides to use its advantages: Instead of full-attacking, on its turn it sends the fighter flying prone with Awesome Blow, then moves back 15 ft (currently 25 ft from the fighter). AoO when the fighter stands, and another AoO when the fighter moves in for his single attack. Rinse and repeat. Tarrasque gets 3 damage-dealing attacks per turn, the fighter only one.
The Tarrasque can also do this nice little "jump 100 ft, plus run 50 ft, then cleave the casters" trick, leaving the fighter stranded in its wake. Alternatively, it can charge 300 ft and only demolish one caster.
However, let's assume the Tarrasque actually decides to use its advantages: Instead of full-attacking, on its turn it sends the fighter flying prone with Awesome Blow, then moves back 15 ft (currently 25 ft from the fighter). AoO when the fighter stands, and another AoO when the fighter moves in for his single attack. Rinse and repeat. Tarrasque gets 3 damage-dealing attacks per turn, the fighter only one.
Why would the fighter even get an attack? Move action to stand, move action to approach, and his turn is over (unless he's also a monk with Ki Stand).
A Tarrasque has an INT score of 3. Just saying. Maybe it shouldn't be a tactical mastermind. :P
So it's a tactical mastermind by using the abilities it has?
I'd say the Tarrasque would know better than anyone else what it can actually do. Since both Awesome Blow and Combat Reflexes are among its pre-selected feats, it should certainly know very well what it can do with both of those, including with both of those in combination.
Fair point. Perhaps it's against the nature of an almost-mindless beast of destruction, but it might resort to that kind of strategy if it was losing the fight.
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Animals in the wild do everything they can to maximize their chances for winning a fight. Why wouldn't the Tarrasque do the same?
I will grant that it would begin the fight with a full-attack with power attack from 30 ft away, but as soon as it realized its opponent could hurt it, I would assume it would quickly switch to the awesome blow/combat reflexes tactic.
Intelligence has nothing to do with combat-instincts. I would put my money on virtually anyone who failed every test in high school over Einstein in a fight :)
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"Although far from intelligent, the tarrasque is smart enough to understand a few words in Aklo (though it cannot speak). Likewise, it isn't mindless in its rampages, but instead focuses on targets that threaten it, and is difficult to distract with trickery."
Just felt like throwing that in there :)
Displacement doesn't help that much against the Tarrasque, since it has scent and Blind-Fight.
However, let's assume the Tarrasque actually decides to use its advantages: Instead of full-attacking, on its turn it sends the fighter flying prone with Awesome Blow, then moves back 15 ft (currently 25 ft from the fighter). AoO when the fighter stands, and another AoO when the fighter moves in for his single attack. Rinse and repeat. Tarrasque gets 3 damage-dealing attacks per turn, the fighter only one.
The Tarrasque can also do this nice little "jump 100 ft, plus run 50 ft, then cleave the casters" trick, leaving the fighter stranded in its wake. Alternatively, it can charge 300 ft and only demolish one caster.
Blessing of Fervor takes care of getting up. Mobile fighter moves at least 40 ft. and can full attack as a standard action, and will gladly eat the one AoO the Tarrasque gets while she moves into melee range.
(I'm not trying to start a back-and-forth about strategies, I just saw and excuse to pimp my favorite fighter archetype.)
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By the way, I just realized that my Awesome Blow/Combat Reflexes "trick" would look very similar in action to how my cat looks when he plays with his favorite mouse-like toy:
He'll frequently begin by throwing it in the air and swatting it away, then back away a little bit, lie in wait until just the right moment, then pounce on it and throw it halfway across the room while charging after it and continuing to swat it every time he gets within reach :)
As an aside, mobile fighter is a cool archetype.