Quick version: How would you guys go about building a knight who rides a griffon? Per the Knights of the Inner Sea, to have a griffon mount you need to be 8th level and get it as a cohort from the Leadership feat. For my purposes that takes way too long. Is there any mechanical way of getting a "griffon companion" earlier?
Context: The players IMC have a small kingdom and they found some griffon eggs. They mean to hatch the eggs and nurture the pups. Their end result: a small order of cavaliers mounted on griffons. I'd like to have a lower-level mechanical way of dealing with that. Maybe a cavalier archetype that got an "animal companion"-like griffon (that started at a smaller size with less HD and progressed from there)? Would the griffon's Magical Beast dice prove too powerful compared to a regular animal companion?
Skills. Ride + Animal empathy (or whatever it's called) + Exotic mount.
They only difference is that they're not bonded mounts or anything. Just mounts. Like fancy horses.
I was planning on running an spin-off campaign that featured low-level characters and I'm pretty sure at least one of them will want to play one of those griffonriders (thus why I was working on this). A 1st-level dude with a full-on Bestiary griffon at his side makes for a very weird party dynamic.
Beastmaster Cavaliers can gain access to nearly anything for a mount.
Hunt down a griffon nest steal the eggs wait for them to hatch, handle animal to tame and then train it. viola!
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This blog post about the Sable Company might help. Okay, they use Hippogriffs instead of Griffons, but you'd probably just need to tweak the stats a bit.
I think the griffon's Magical beast dice could indeed prove to powerful. I would take the stats of the animal companion that comes close and adjust them, you could change to the normal griffon when the dc's maceh (or when you think it's as strong as other mound would be.)
(I'd also rule that Knight has to raise there own griffon, since griffon's have verry strong bonds acording to the bestiarie)
This blog post about the Sable Company might help. Okay, they use Hippogriffs instead of Griffons, but you'd probably just need to tweak the stats a bit.
It helped indeed, although it brought a couple more doubts: Do the Hipogriff companion uses Animal HD or Magical Beast? Apparently it's the former, which generates a weird end result.
I'll probably end up using the animal companion rules (including animal HD) and chalk the difference out to domestication diminishing a bit of the creature's natural instincts.
Beastmaster Cavaliers can gain access to nearly anything for a mount.
Sadly, not a griffon. Or any flying mount whatsoever.
A beast rider cannot choose a mount that is not capable of bearing his weight, that has fewer than four legs, or that has a fly speed.
Hunt down a griffon nest steal the eggs wait for them to hatch, handle animal to tame and then train it. viola!
The PCs did just that. Except they killed the mated pair of griffons that were ranging into their kingdom and harassing farmers. The griffon eggs have hatched and the pups are being trained (although the handler is going to have a good surprise when he notices the true extent of the griffon's intelligence).
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CotCT 4th level Ranger Feat "Sable Company Marine" allows a hippogriff as a mount for a ranger (PF cavalier wasnt invented yet but would be the same) So convert feat. Use Hippogriff stats for a "younger griffon in training" once they get to 8th level use full griffon stats.
Don't use "young" template for a Griffon because technically it would be to small to ride then.
Just use the hippogriff in the same way dragons use age categories, so a hippogriff stated griffon would be large enough to ride but not fully "griffon ized" like a juvenile dragon.
This would be a teenager Griffon.
Think of it like Eragon, the dragon isn't fully capable when he first rides it. Needs more rest, walks more often, etc etc. By the time he actually fights the shade demon, the dragon is "battle ready"
So my answer is "mighty morphin hippogriffs" Hiam Saban style! Find the secret to unlock their full griffon hood! (right about level 8)
As far as an order of cavaliers, TPP "advanced options cavalier orders" (i thinks its 4 or 5 bucks in PDF form here on Paizo) has an "Order of the griffon" cavalier order already written up.
Enjoy.
(we have a Ronin in our game, we are currently playing CotCT and she wants to eventually become an Order of the Griffon Samurai...In my world there is no such thing as a hippogriff, basically because I feel they over lap too much with a pegasus, so I use the hippogriff stats for the sable company marines as "Griffons bred in captivity" they aren't a full griffon because they are stabled and trained as mounts and not "wild griffons")
First, let me say thanks to everyone that offered their counsel in this thread. And sorry that it took me so long to respond; I couldn't find it after the update.
I'll just hijack Little Skylark's comment to explain the actual goal I'm trying to achieve.
(I'd also rule that Knight has to raise there own griffon, since griffon's have verry strong bonds acording to the bestiarie)
That's along the line I was thinking. To make this clear: The PCs in my main campaign have hatched the griffon eggs and are trying to organize some sort of griffon-aerial-cavalry (despite not one of them being a mounted-type). Normally I wouldn't worry about this and just let it remain on the background.
But then I have 2 goals with this:
1) I'd like to show the PCs that their actions can really impact the setting, and their determination has spawned a whole new order, complete with their ethos, traditions, etc.
2) As we're starting a level 1 campaign in this very kingdom and I know for a fact one of the players intends to play a griffonrider, I'd like to have a balanced mechanical way of dealing with this.
Now, for that reason (and the detailed description on the Revisited line) I thought about a Cavalier archetype that got a Medium griffon pup at first level. At around 7th (when most companions become Large-sized) or 8th (when a regular griffon would be available as a Leadership cohort) that "Griffon Companion" would grow to Large and be suitable as a mount.
What would you guys suggest for such an archetype to trade off for a griffon companion? I'm thinking the mount and maybe the cavalier's charge and/or expert trainer.
What could a griffon companion offer without breaking the balance and overshadowing the character?
First, let me say thanks to everyone that offered their counsel in this thread. And sorry that it took me so long to respond; I couldn't find it after the update.
I'll just hijack Little Skylark's comment to explain the actual goal I'm trying to achieve.
(I'd also rule that Knight has to raise there own griffon, since griffon's have verry strong bonds acording to the bestiarie)That's along the line I was thinking. To make this clear: The PCs in my main campaign have hatched the griffon eggs and are trying to organize some sort of griffon-aerial-cavalry (despite not one of them being a mounted-type). Normally I wouldn't worry about this and just let it remain on the background.
But then I have 2 goals with this:
1) I'd like to show the PCs that their actions can really impact the setting, and their determination has spawned a whole new order, complete with their ethos, traditions, etc.
2) As we're starting a level 1 campaign in this very kingdom and I know for a fact one of the players intends to play a griffonrider, I'd like to have a balanced mechanical way of dealing with this.
Now, for that reason (and the detailed description on the Revisited line) I thought about a Cavalier archetype that got a Medium griffon pup at first level. At around 7th (when most companions become Large-sized) or 8th (when a regular griffon would be available as a Leadership cohort) that "Griffon Companion" would grow to Large and be suitable as a mount.
What would you guys suggest for such an archetype to trade off for a griffon companion? I'm thinking the mount and maybe the cavalier's charge and/or expert trainer.
What could a griffon companion offer without breaking the balance and overshadowing the character?
See my above response a third party product already has an order of the griffon.
But you could have a ranger or a druid or an oracle with griffon mounts too. Anyone could train to RIDE a griffon as well they just wouldnt be companions.
You could have the griffon be trained through the character progress and start out like a pseudodragon, then become like a dog/wolf, then move up to something cheetah/leopard/panther sized and finally become a mount. So for a time, it would be like a druids animal companion, but would move to mount around level 8 (or you could run ti like my above suggestion)
Ah, right. Super Genius Games' Cavalier order book has the griffon order already, good call. I don't recall if they actually get a griffon, but that could just be because it's in the first pdf, which I haven't read yet.
I was going to recommend using the Dragonrider by the same company as a basis for a base class. But a cavalier order would work well too. And I mean hey, at the point where you're considering homebrew, may as well let someone else do the work for you since you're already breaking off from paizo-only :)
Keep in mind that giving fly from 1st level is actually pretty darn powerful. The dragonrider gets around it by requiring standard or move actions to get their flying mount to do anything other than just take a single move action each turn. This is a really good idea, and I'd recommend looking into how that would work with a griffonrider in the case where you don't go ahead and look at the Order of the GRiffon that Pendagast mentioned.
Lots of interesting stuff.
You gave me a lot of food for thought. I'll sleep on it and try to get a good comment tomorrow morning.
Thank you all for the suggestions and wise counsel; I'll let you guys in on whatever decision I take on this.
One last post before going to bed:
I agree wholeheartedly that a flying mount at 1st level is almost game-breaking. That's why I was trying a workaround based on the fluff of the creature.
So you have to approach them while they're young (at 4 or 5 they are adults and leave to seek mates) and establish a bond. I'm thinking a 1st-level character could have a Medium-sized young griffon (not with the simple template). At around 7th or 8th level the griffon would reach maturity, becoming Large and getting the appropriate bonuses.
IC, the rider and the griffon would go through a cerimonial fight. The rider has to try and saddle the griffon, that will fight back with tooth and claw. If the rider succeeds, he has shown the griffon his strenght, and it allows him to ride it. It would be a moment of major importance in that character's career with some pomp and ritual.
Leadership: Griffon Cohort.
Done.
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Ah, right. Super Genius Games' Cavalier order book has the griffon order already, good call. I don't recall if they actually get a griffon, but that could just be because it's in the first pdf, which I haven't read yet.
An Order of the Griffon cavalier from Super Genius Game's Advanced Options: Cavaliers' Orders does indeed get an actual griffon as his mount!
If you are looking for even more new orders, you can also check out Advanced Options: More Cavalier Orders :)
Yep, sable company.