I was told by my GM that I have to make an archer character. I don't know why that I have this requirement, but I wanted to be in the game so I said sure.
I am only allowed feats from the core rulebook and advanced players guide. I can only use classes from the core rulebook, though I can use archetypes from the advanced. I am also allowed to use anything from the adventurer's armory
Of course, the expectation is to go full fighter or Zen archer. Usually full fighter is expected.
However, I want to try something different that would feel a bit different and open up more diverse option
I don't have the ability rolls yet, I keep on waiting to do it so that way I can know exactly what I can do.
I do have a general idea. I thought that I might want to make an archer cleric, but the thing is that I'm supposed to specialize as an archer, as they said they didn't need a cleric. So sacrificing a bit of cleric usefulness isn't really a big deal to me.
I thought I might take human so that way in case if i get bad rolls I can make up with that with choosing my ability increase and also for that bonus feat and extra skill points.
I plan to play a lawful neutral and base it off of acting the role of the justicar. Not the class, but the duties of one. I would take the lawkeeper aspect though and if i violate it, it requires an atonement in order to keep cleric abilities. He hasn't mastered magic yet, but still takes on the duties. My god is Abadar of course
My plan so far is channel negative energy so that way the other players don't try to force me into the healer role, as the best healing I have learned is to kill your enemies faster. Thus he takes on the role of harming those who have broken laws and have been judged to be sentenced to death.
Zen archer 1: Point blank shot, precise shot, bonus(rapid shot), (free) Improved unarmed combat
Zen archer 2: free(weapon focus) bonus (deflect arrows)
Zen archer 3: Free(point blank master), zen archery, deadly aim
ZA 3/ cleric 1
ZA 3/ Cleric 2: Snatch arrows
ZA 3/ Cleric 3
ZA 3/ cleric 4: Skill focus (perception)
ZA 3/ Cleric 5:
ZA 3/ Cleric 6: Manyshot
I chose deflect arrows and snatch arrows to protect myself from any other ranged characters who target me.
Eventually I want Improved precise shot of course, but I am not sure what to select as my domain. Anything past 9 I haven't decided on, as it takes a long time to get to that point.
I don't exactly expect to do an extremely optimized character, but could the character remain useful with the dip in zen archer? Or is it harmed to the point that it can't really keep up with fellow party members who might be more optimized?
Zen archers can't use rapid shot or manyshot with their flurry so there is basically no value in taking rapid shot as a bonus feat. I would either take dodge for the AC boost or I would suggest taking a non-combat feat at first level since both precise shot and point blank shot are options for zen archers as bonus feats.
I play a half-elf zen archer / Druid and took skill focus (perception) from level 1. At level 7 my perception is 24 (and frequently 29) depending on conditions (due to the eagle domain I choose as my nature bond he has an eagle familiar as well as magic items that boost his perception plus lots of ranks into perception)
If you had access to ultimate combat or ultimate magic I would suggest you consider the Evangelist or Theologian archetypes for clerics - both would offer features that seem to fit your character. In any case I'd look at options that emphasize mobility - if you take the Travel domain you will have a very high movement from early on.
I'd also suggest taking a 4th level of Zen Archer - having a ki pool unlocks a lot of power for a zen archer (flurry for 3 attacks) combined with the right composite bow (and decent STR) plus deadly aim (pay attention to how deadly aim may change when you flurry if your effective BAB changes while flurrying) means you dish out a lot of damage quickly.
Plus with monk fast movement, travel domain and a ki pool you could spend a ki as a swift action and have a movement speed of 70 at level 5 - that means easily closing to the enemies and either charging & unarmed strike or 70' & one shot w/deadly aim without provoking (point blank master).
Consider taking feats like Step Up.
And don't forget that monks can used unarmed strikes even when your hands are full - ie you can wield your bow and still threaten adjacent enemies (making you really helpful as a flanker)
I would also encourage you to really emphasize WIS - you will get AC, to-hit, ki, and bonus spells (and spell DC) all from one stat. You should aim for 22 or higher by the mid-levels (try to start at 19, put a point in at level 4 and get a headband).
Personally I tend to play my zen archer as a front line melee - taking full advantage of point blank master so I would emphasize dodge over deflect arrows/snatch arrows. I would also suggest reserving at least one perhaps two feats for non-combat feats to help your cleric abilities - at higher levels you will want spell penetration or perhaps spell focus or selective channeling (whether you channel positive or negative you will want to exclude folks). This also means you can't dump CHA too much.
That sounds like an interesting build. The first 3 levels of Zen Archer are the most powerful, so that's good dip for an archer character.
For your cleric deity and domain, I think Erastil has bow as a favored weapon, so you might see what domains and feats fit with that. (Channel smite might be one you could look at, too.)
A couple of things you might consider:
The 4th level of Zen Archer gets you the ki pool (+4 AC, +1 arrow in a full attack action, +10? jump check). You might think about picking that up later on.
You can get Improved Precise Shot as a bonus feat at Zen Archer 6 (no pre-requisites), which is probably the fastest way to get it.
I'm not sure if you'll need the Skill Focus on Perception. Assuming you have a high-ish Wisdom for both Zen Archer and Cleric, you might find something more useful for that feat.
If you're allowed to use feats from Ultimate Combat, Clustered Shots is the Holy Grail of archery feats: add up damage from all the shots that hit in a single round before applying damage reduction.
I'd love to see what you finally decide to do. This sounds like a really fun character.
I agree with losing the Multi/Many Shot, use Flurry of Blows.
Also, if you follow Irori, you can take the Wisdom of the Flesh trait, using Wisdom in place of a physical stat for any one physical skill.
As for Domains, I would look into the rest of the group and work on filling holes .
Since you are using Wis in place of Dex, Dwarf is not a bad choice. nor would Human, Half-Elf, or Half-Orc.
Gwen Smith wrote: That sounds like an interesting build. The first 3 levels of Zen Archer are the most powerful, so that's good dip for an archer character.
For your cleric deity and domain, I think Erastil has bow as a favored weapon, so you might see what domains and feats fit with that. (Channel smite might be one you could look at, too.)
A couple of things you might consider:
The 4th level of Zen Archer gets you the ki pool (+4 AC, +1 arrow in a full attack action, +10? jump check). You might think about picking that up later on.
You can get Improved Precise Shot as a bonus feat at Zen Archer 6 (no pre-requisites), which is probably the fastest way to get it.
I'm not sure if you'll need the Skill Focus on Perception. Assuming you have a high-ish Wisdom for both Zen Archer and Cleric, you might find something more useful for that feat.
If you're allowed to use feats from Ultimate Combat, Clustered Shots is the Holy Grail of archery feats: add up damage from all the shots that hit in a single round before applying damage reduction.
I'd love to see what you finally decide to do. This sounds like a really fun character.
I unfortuantly am not allowed feats from ultimate combat or magic, or else I'd pick up Evangelist for a cleric archtype and get the inspire bravery.
Skill focus perception is mainly there because I really can't see much to use at that level. The other possiblity is dodge, combat reflexes, and quick draw. Quick draw might let me switch to a shield at the end of the turn if I decide to wear armor.
Perception is just really useful. I guess I could also do improved initiative.
If I get that 4th level, it kinda kills the spellcasting and I might as well stick to zen archer then. Not only that, but i'd no longer be able to obtain 9th level spells at 20.
I could grab Erastil, but then I would be forced into positive channeling and my team might look at me like a healer. Of course. I could just refuse to be the healer and still channel positive energy for other uses.
The other reason why I wanted to grab some Zen archer is that he is always considered armed and can respond to a sunder attempt to the bow with an elbow. A normal fighter would have their hands full with the bow and couldn't do an attack of opportunity.
So either my choice is to go for that extra level in Zen archer to grab the pool or to stick to cleric and get the full spellcasting list by the end and keep up somewhat to a normal cleric.
I could swap out rapid shot and many shot for other things. Maybe skill focus peception early on
I actually had this same idea a few months ago even did a thread on it, and just got to start using it in a jade reagent campaign. I chose samsaran for my race taking first level as cleric and then three zen archer with the rest going into cleric. Good luck with it so far it, I'll try to link you my thread later there was a lot of good info in there.
I prefer Sorcerer with that bloodline that makes you based off wisdom (Seeker too if you want it), as Arcane Archer exists.
Nebraskaslim wrote: I actually had this same idea a few months ago even did a thread on it, and just got to start using it in a jade reagent campaign. I chose samsaran for my race taking first level as cleric and then three zen archer with the rest going into cleric. Good luck with it so far it, I'll try to link you my thread later there was a lot of good info in there. I'd certainly look forward to seeing this other thread. I unfortuantly can't take cleric as first level due to if i do that then I suspect the GM will call foul.
It is a bit tricky, but if i give the right perception that I am an archer and not a cleric then I can get it past him, as I don't have to show my full plan.
Zen archer is so good through the low levels, it's hard to drop out of it. If you go 3, you really must go to 4, because ki is too good to just ignore. Then once you're 4, you might as well stick around til 6 for two free feats and 3 attacks per turn. Then go into cleric at 7. This is what I did with mine (though rogue instead of cleric). I tried to get out of ZaM earlier but there's just too much good stuff to get out before 7. At least for me...
Vestrial wrote:
Zen archer is so good through the low levels, it's hard to drop out of it. If you go 3, you really must go to 4, because ki is too good to just ignore. Then once you're 4, you might as well stick around til 6 for two free feats and 3 attacks per turn. Then go into cleric at 7. This is what I did with mine (though rogue instead of cleric). I tried to get out of ZaM earlier but there's just too much good stuff to get out before 7. At least for me...
It is really tempting. The only thing holding me back from that is that it delays my spellcasting by 4 levels, making me 2 spell levels behind where I should be and locking me out of 8th and 9th level spells. I guess it isn't a completely horrible thing seeing as how many of the really good debuff and buff spells are available in levels before that. Not to mention that I wouldn't really get bonus spells of 8 or 9 unless I had an insanely high wisdom score. So I wouldn't really have many 8th or 9th level spells anyhow. It would kinda hurt the ability to use metamagic, but you have rods for that
It is kinda sad to not have things like restoration earlier, but at the same time there is another cleric for that. And missing out on Miracle too.
But at the same time you make up for it by being able to put out some serious damage with your archery
If they don't need a Cleric and need an Archer, straight Zen Archer is a fun & fantastic class.
Read This Guide for some helpful hints & tips.
I also second the Wisdom in the Flesh Trait as well as Honoured Fist of the Society (if permitted) for an extra Ki pool point.
Krodjin wrote: If they don't need a Cleric and need an Archer, straight Zen Archer is a fun & fantastic class.
Read This Guide for some helpful hints & tips.
I also second the Wisdom in the Flesh Trait as well as Honoured Fist of the Society (if permitted) for an extra Ki pool point.
I may just stick to zen archer, but i wanted to try something different that would surprise people.
I thought that a zen cleric as an archtype of the cleric in a way that delays spellcasting. Basically i want to be a cleric, but the GM says we have a dedicated cleric. I figure they probably want this person to heal, so a cleric dedicated to other stuff than healing might be useful and fun.
Trying to be creative and develop something that would surprise people in how it works. I hate being relegated to a single task of archer. It meant that I didn't get to play like how i wanted to, so this would be a compromise.
I don't like being told to play a certain thing. But if Zen archer is a lot of fun, i may just stick to that
lucien pyrus wrote: It is really tempting. The only thing holding me back from that is that it delays my spellcasting by 4 levels, making me 2 spell levels behind where I should be and locking me out of 8th and 9th level spells. I guess it isn't a completely horrible thing seeing as how many of the really good debuff and buff spells are available in levels before that. Not to mention that I wouldn't really get bonus spells of 8 or 9 unless I had an insanely high wisdom score. So I wouldn't really have many 8th or 9th level spells anyhow. It would kinda hurt the ability to use metamagic, but you have rods for that
It is kinda sad to not have things like restoration earlier, but at the same time there is another cleric for that. And missing out on Miracle too.
But at the same time you make up for it by being able to put out some serious damage with your archery
Yeah, it really depends on what you want. If you want to be an archer who supports himself with a bit of spellcasing, stick with ZAM longer. If you want to be a caster who shoots a bow, I honestly would go Fighter or Ranger 1 then cleric for the rest. If you want to be a caster, losing 3 caster levels really, really hurts. On the other hand, if you just want to support yourself, you really don't need that much. (even one level gets you access to wands) And if you want just a few tricks for thematic stuff, there's a lot of cool stuff you can pick up through Qingong
You can always go back and pick up the 4th level of Zen Archer after a few levels of cleric, if it seems like you're missing the ki pool features. (You might not, if your spellcasting works out like you want it too.) Same thing with any of the higher-level feats: you'll have a lot of time to decide if you need them.
Too bad about not being able to use Ultimate Combat: the best archer feats are in that book (Clustered Shots, Hammer the Gap, Snap Shot, etc.). I think all the Monk styles are in there, too. (Since archers only need two hands when they're actually firing the bow, they have one hand free to defend themselves with Crane Style through the rest of the round.)
There are two issues in your current plan:
Manyshot requires Rapid Shot, and both of those are wasted with Flurry of Blows: your attack bonus will be higher with FoB than with a regular attack using Rapid Shot and/or Manyshot. If you're going for "front line melee" archer, you might want to look at Shot on the Run (requires Dodge and Mobility) in place of Manyshot. Or just spend that feat slot on some cool Cleric trick.
Improved Precise Shot is the other potential problem: it requires a Dex of 19 unless you pick it up as a Zen Archer 6th or 10th level bonus feat. (It's possible you'll get a 19 Dex in addition to your Cleric-required stats: if you do, go buy a lottery ticket immediately!)
And again I would emphasize the zen archer gets basically nothing from either rapid shot or multishot. Flurry is far superior. And as a likely high WIS character you should probably plan on being unarmored - with a few items and the right feats (and later buffs) you will have an AC that rivals most fighters (my 7th level zen archer /Druid had 25 AC for most of the last fights he was in)
If you go Abadar then definitely look at travel domain.
Vestrial wrote: lucien pyrus wrote: It is really tempting. The only thing holding me back from that is that it delays my spellcasting by 4 levels, making me 2 spell levels behind where I should be and locking me out of 8th and 9th level spells. I guess it isn't a completely horrible thing seeing as how many of the really good debuff and buff spells are available in levels before that. Not to mention that I wouldn't really get bonus spells of 8 or 9 unless I had an insanely high wisdom score. So I wouldn't really have many 8th or 9th level spells anyhow. It would kinda hurt the ability to use metamagic, but you have rods for that
It is kinda sad to not have things like restoration earlier, but at the same time there is another cleric for that. And missing out on Miracle too.
But at the same time you make up for it by being able to put out some serious damage with your archery
Yeah, it really depends on what you want. If you want to be an archer who supports himself with a bit of spellcasing, stick with ZAM longer. If you want to be a caster who shoots a bow, I honestly would go Fighter or Ranger 1 then cleric for the rest. If you want to be a caster, losing 3 caster levels really, really hurts. On the other hand, if you just want to support yourself, you really don't need that much. (even one level gets you access to wands) And if you want just a few tricks for thematic stuff, there's a lot of cool stuff you can pick up through Qingong Basically a caster who can support himself. Kinda some tricks too. Main thing is archery, but i want some things that could break the mold of being shooty guy. I feel that quite a few cleric stuff has some potential for out of combat and you can even do some neat things to yourself in combat.
Kinda a gimmick, but i'm not looking for optimization or greatest class ever. Just something fun and different.
What I lose are the 10th level bonus feats, trick shot, ki focus bow, reflexive shot, 2 attacks and 4 BAB.
A pretty high cost. But in return I get channeling (though at a lesser ability to a normal cleric, but still good out of battle), Spell progression -2 levels, aura, and domains. The travel domain looks especially great.
So yeah. It really hurts to do this multiclassing, but it adds in some flavor to the character, adds in some more options, and i feel it opens up for you to be able to do more things out of combat.
Of the things I would miss would be the two extra attacks. However, that really doesn't matter too much. I still have the same amount of attacks that a rogue, ranger, or pure cleric would have. I'd have one less than a paladin though. The final BAB would be while flurrying 14/14/9/3/-1
Compared to the pure cleric's or rogue's 13(x2)/13/8/3
Not only that but you still get that 16 flurry BAB to get one more notch of deadly aim than the rouge, cleric, or ranger.
Not to mention that you still can use that ki point to get one more attack at 14, something those three can't do. Flurry is also better because each attack gets their critical damage multiplied, compared to manyshot only getting one of them multipled.
With spending ki, the zen archer 6/cleric 14 has 4 less BAB than a fighter, the same amount of attacks, and only missing greater weapon specialization and weapon training while having all the other key archery feats. The only difference is that the zen archer can't wear armor, but has ways to make up for that.
I think it matches up somewhat archery wise with a fighter archer, but still far behind the zen archer.
It has better saves than the fighter and can cast 7th level spells, giving the ability to give himself some serious buffs and some situational use outside of combat. Not to mention great saves.
So I think it can pull its weight. It won't be the awesomeness that the zen archer pure is, but still should be interesting and diverse.
If i could convince the person to do ultimate magic archtypes, i could do zen archer 9/empyreal sorcerer 1/ arcane archer 10
19 flurry BAB, one less attack than a zen archer, no 10th bonus feat, no 10th level perfect strike, no ki focus bow or trick shot. only 5th level sorcery, but you do get hail of arrows. arrow of death doesn't seem that useful unless you lower their fortitude saves first. you do get to assign any element or alignment to bypass DR. and you can do a +2 arcane strike.
I'd need to clear it with the GM to allow me to use the archetype in UM
If your DM allows subdomains I would suggest that you choose:
the Travel domain (the regular one) -gives you increased speed, free action ignore all difficult terrain for a round 3 + WIS times a day, at 8th level a move action non-provoking teleport (great for getting out of grapples or pits etc) as well as a LOT of spells either that aren't on the regular cleric list (longstrider, fly, teleport/greater teleport, dimension door, phase door), one spell a full level early (Locate Object) and only one spell at the same level you get it anyway - Find the Path (which can be a great spell)
and
Protection (Defense subdomain) which basically saves you gold - scaling resistance bonus (which doesn't stack with cloak of resistance but means you could wear a different cloak), a once a day burst of deflection bonuses to all your allies (not horrible but not great) and at level 8 a better, larger aura that grants deflection bonuses and perhaps more usefully an array of resistances. All okay and situational but not horrible but the subdomain also gives you spells that mean you probably don't need armor - shield at first level is fantastic for an archer/cleric, barkskin at 2nd level is also pretty decent, deflection at level 7 is simply fantastic (and defense subdomain is the only non-sorcerer/wizard that can get it) . The spells of the base Protection domain aren't quite as fantastic but still quite decent
The two combined are pretty potent - you move around, have more buffs than a normal cleric, and have lots of surprises you can use as needed.
Neat thing about Zen archer is that you have improved unarmed strike so you can aoo with your foot if you have to.
This build of punishing the lawless would be so tasty for a zen archer/inquisitor too bad you cant take inquisitor.
Sorry about how long it took me to get back to this. Anyway the thread I had before was this http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz62fr?Cleric-archer-build-idea#1
If you're trying to make it a decent spell caster and archer you shouldn't really go past 3 levels of Zen archer, if you take only 3 levels you can still get 9th level spells and for this build you only need a high wisdom, a high dex helps till you can take the third level of zen archer but you'll be pumping wisdom from then on.
Domain wise I was lucky and got my gm to ok taking the druid hawk domain so I get aspect of the falcon as a domain spell. So see if your gm will ok that if not try and find another archery friendly domain.
Nebraskaslim wrote: Sorry about how long it took me to get back to this. Anyway the thread I had before was this http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz62fr?Cleric-archer-build-idea#1
If you're trying to make it a decent spell caster and archer you shouldn't really go past 3 levels of Zen archer, if you take only 3 levels you can still get 9th level spells and for this build you only need a high wisdom, a high dex helps till you can take the third level of zen archer but you'll be pumping wisdom from then on.
Domain wise I was lucky and got my gm to ok taking the druid hawk domain so I get aspect of the falcon as a domain spell. So see if your gm will ok that if not try and find another archery friendly domain.
I decided that I want a archer with some spell casting utility. Not really a spellcaster, but someone who can buff themselves and cast some stuff out of combat. Get some situational advantages and less full casting power.
There is a dedicated cleric and a wizard for the real spellcasting, this is just some interesting flavor .
I think the 6th zen/ 14th cleric looks pretty good. Not as powerful as a pure zen archer, but plenty useful.
Why not straight Cleric? Choose a god with a bow as a favored weapon, and nab Guided Hand.
Full spellcasting, wear armor, and use wisdom for attack rolls with bows.
Pick up a Adaptive Composite Bow as soon as possible.
blackbloodtroll wrote: Why not straight Cleric? Choose a god with a bow as a favored weapon, and nab Guided Hand.
Full spellcasting, wear armor, and use wisdom for attack rolls with bows.
Pick up a Adaptive Composite Bow as soon as possible.
Guided hand is an Ultimate combat feat.
Not only that, but i'd lose out on one attack, one notch of deadly aim, and delayed archery feats and maybe being locked out of some due to requiring higher dex to qualify for feats like manyshot and rapid shot. Making it way more MAD. A requirement for 17 dex isn't a small requirement and you will end up having to sacrifice something.
Then you lose out with having no zennish elbow to defend yourself.
You lose two feats trying to get Guided hand and when archery is so feat intensive already, that really hurts.
I want more utility stuff rather than full spellcasting. If I can get ultimate combat or ultimate magic, I could class zen 8/ archaeologist 12. Then I would get trap finding and a nice +3 boost to my attack and damage plus arcane strike.
That would put the damage and attack bonus on par with a fighter and give you 4th level bard abilities. Not to mention evasion, increased ki pool, improved evasion, and even further improved perception.
17 BAB when flurrying for one extra attack over the fighter when you use ki points. You also get +3 to make it equal to the fighter or full zen archer.
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Rapid Shot requires Dex 13. Manyshot, while nice, is nonessential (a word that sums up most archery feats that require more than 13 Dex).
As a general rule, if your GM is flat refusing an option that simplifies everyone's life (as being able to get the job done on a single-classed Cleric does instead of multiclassing) merely because it's printed on the wrong piece of paper, no appeals, when it is in no way complex or ridiculous? Then it's time to sit down and talk with your GM, because that's a rather closed-minded stance to take. Very controlling, and a red flag.
At any rate, while you do lose out on a bit of stuff, in general, nothing's worth more than your next level of spells. Being up a level or two of spellcasting can free up the buffs to more than make up the difference.
It's worth considering more seriously and, if you decide it an option, bringing up with the GM.
And folks who inevitably take exception to the "time to sit down and talk" conditional, please make that another thread.
Zen Archers, like monks, can ignore the requirements for their bonus feats. So they don't technically need a 13 Dex for Rapid Shot.
But that said, there is nearly no reason to take Rapid Shot for a Zen Archer - both are full round actions but the Flurry will always be better. Maybe if you were planning on using many different ranged weapons or if you really wanted a feat that requires Rapid Shot as a prerequisite but that's mostly unnecessary for Zen Archers. (Clustered Shot and Deadly Aim are the main archery feats a Zen Archer may want but can't get as bonus feats)
A Zen Archer may want STR for a composite bow to add to his damage output - though even without a composite bow a zen archer of at least 6th level (with Weapon Specialization) + Deadly Aim will do a lot of damage.
Rycaut wrote: Zen Archers, like monks, can ignore the requirements for their bonus feats. So they don't technically need a 13 Dex for Rapid Shot.
But that said, there is nearly no reason to take Rapid Shot for a Zen Archer - both are full round actions but the Flurry will always be better. Maybe if you were planning on using many different ranged weapons or if you really wanted a feat that requires Rapid Shot as a prerequisite but that's mostly unnecessary for Zen Archers. (Clustered Shot and Deadly Aim are the main archery feats a Zen Archer may want but can't get as bonus feats)
A Zen Archer may want STR for a composite bow to add to his damage output - though even without a composite bow a zen archer of at least 6th level (with Weapon Specialization) + Deadly Aim will do a lot of damage.
It was really for an archer cleric who only took zen archer up until level 3.
with flurry you would end up with 13/13/8/3. without flurry you would end up with 13 (x2)/13/8/3. You would end up with one more attack and that would be hard to pass up.
Not only that, but you could wear armor then and not have a problem
That's only if you don't go to 4th as a zen archer and get a ki pool. Personally I don't like taking feats at low levels I can't actually use to enhance my character until many levels later but that's my personal perspective. I've never played a home game that last to max levels.
Viletta has the right idea. With good reason a DM can put restrictions on what classes or alignments are available to be played, e.g., You guys are saving the world and going to be dealing with good deities, no evil alignments.
Telling you what to play is a huge red flag. If your character dies are you going to have to roll up *another* archer? I know you said you agreed to it because you want in the game, but I'd wager the game isn't going to be worth playing if he's going to be that constricting. I'd talk to him and at least get an explanation as to why he's being the way he is. Even if you show up to a PFS game with no character you still get a choice of what you want to play out of like, a million pre-gens.
Corren28 wrote: Viletta has the right idea. With good reason a DM can put restrictions on what classes or alignments are available to be played, e.g., You guys are saving the world and going to be dealing with good deities, no evil alignments.
Telling you what to play is a huge red flag. If your character dies are you going to have to roll up *another* archer? I know you said you agreed to it because you want in the game, but I'd wager the game isn't going to be worth playing if he's going to be that constricting. I'd talk to him and at least get an explanation as to why he's being the way he is. Even if you show up to a PFS game with no character you still get a choice of what you want to play out of like, a million pre-gens.
For some reason this DM has in his mind that there has to be a sword and board fighter, a cleric, an archer, a rogue and a wizard.
A party in pathfinder doesn't work like that. Enemies will ignore someone they can't hit and go for someone that they can hit.
Clerics being healers in battle are incorrect in my opinion. They can do all sorts of healing outside of battle and can remove ailments inside battles, but their tiny healing won't compare with killing the enemy faster. You can get by just fine with potions.
Rogue isn't needed if you have all the books as you can find other ways to deal with traps or you can play something like an archaeologist. You don't need a rogue to play.
A wizard is useful, especially for batttlefield control. Sure he can do the blaster and be fairly good at it, but a physical class can handle damage just fine
So there isn't this clearcut you need certain classes/ certain roles. I had a party once made up of a ninja, rogue, a summoner, and an alchemist.
It was fun in game and we had the ninja and rogue flanking to give eachother sneak attacks. The summoner would help with flanking with his eidolon.
It was quite fun and we didn't have a wizard, a cleric, or a sword and board fighter.
For the first few levels, we didn't even have the alchemist. The DM decided that he wanted to help us out of combat to supply potions. There was no in combat healing
A good DM should be able to accommodate whatever mix of characters his players want to play. Often people like having distinct roles - but a party of all melee types is just as possible as a party of all rogues or all arcane casters. Gaps in the party in terms of traditional roles or skills are just one more challenge for the players to overcome. It may mean that some encounters are harder for one party than for another (ie a single channel focused cleric can singlehandedly take out or at least seriously weaken a group of low level undead that a party without a channeling cleric may find a tough fight at low levels.)
But this is a feature of the game. Part of what makes it fun - at times every player at the table should have a chance to shine and to contribute. I mostly run PFS these days and part of what I enjoy about running the same scenarios multiple times for different people is seeing how different groups play out different choices and abilities.
I agree with everyone above that this DM seems overly fixated on a very specific party structure - makes me suspect he has a strong tendency towards railroading.
lucien pyrus wrote: For some reason this DM has in his mind that there has to be a sword and board fighter, a cleric, an archer, a rogue and a wizard. Maybe the DM wants to recreate the Gauntlet video game?
lucien pyrus wrote: A party in pathfinder doesn't work like that. Enemies will ignore someone they can't hit and go for someone that they can hit. This is not a true statement. If the DM (who is playing the enemies) has it in his mind that they are going to act a certain way, rest assured they are going to act that way.
In the DM's defense the party composition he is asking for would (or should) equal a well balanced party that can probably tackle any of the challenges placed in front of it. But even better (from his perspective anyway) it means he doesn't have to any tweaking of pre-made encounters to make up for a Party lacking a specific aspect (such as Arcane magic or Healing).
Do a quick search of these boards and you'll see lots of threads from DM's asking for help modifying encounters to suit a Party of 3 Fighters and another Fighter or what have you...
Rycaut - while I don't disagree with your assessment it could also be that the DM is inexperienced or doesn't have a lot of time to prep ahead of time... Just trying to be Devils Advocate here.
Rycaut wrote: A good DM should be able to accommodate whatever mix of characters his players want to play. Often people like having distinct roles - but a party of all melee types is just as possible as a party of all rogues or all arcane casters. Gaps in the party in terms of traditional roles or skills are just one more challenge for the players to overcome. It may mean that some encounters are harder for one party than for another (ie a single channel focused cleric can singlehandedly take out or at least seriously weaken a group of low level undead that a party without a channeling cleric may find a tough fight at low levels.)
But this is a feature of the game. Part of what makes it fun - at times every player at the table should have a chance to shine and to contribute. I mostly run PFS these days and part of what I enjoy about running the same scenarios multiple times for different people is seeing how different groups play out different choices and abilities.
I agree with everyone above that this DM seems overly fixated on a very specific party structure - makes me suspect he has a strong tendency towards railroading.
It is really really frustrating because he isn't allowing ultimate magic or combat and can't be any class that isn't found in the core rulebook.
I'd love to be a halfling archer cavalier that is able to charge in when he sees an opportunity. Or a gunslinger. Or a zen monk/ inquisitor combination. Possibly a myrmidarch. Though I could be a Kensai and do wonderful things as well.
It is hard to fill a role when many archetypes that would be really good or would be fun flavor aren't allowed. I would love to have guided hands, but I can't because ultimate magic isn't involved.
I think if i recall right it is because he ordered books, but that didn't include ultimate magic or ultimate combat.
It really doesn't help that I only have contact with him once every two months maybe until the game actually starts. I can't discuss anything. All i was told was to make an archer and that i couldn't use UM or UC
Rycaut wrote: A good DM should be able to accommodate whatever mix of characters his players want to play. Often people like having distinct roles - but a party of all melee types is just as possible as a party of all rogues or all arcane casters. Gaps in the party in terms of traditional roles or skills are just one more challenge for the players to overcome. It may mean that some encounters are harder for one party than for another (ie a single channel focused cleric can singlehandedly take out or at least seriously weaken a group of low level undead that a party without a channeling cleric may find a tough fight at low levels.)
But this is a feature of the game. Part of what makes it fun - at times every player at the table should have a chance to shine and to contribute. I mostly run PFS these days and part of what I enjoy about running the same scenarios multiple times for different people is seeing how different groups play out different choices and abilities.
I agree with everyone above that this DM seems overly fixated on a very specific party structure - makes me suspect he has a strong tendency towards railroading.
It is really really frustrating because he isn't allowing ultimate magic or combat and can't be any class that isn't found in the core rulebook.
I'd love to be a halfling archer cavalier that is able to charge in when he sees an opportunity. Or a gunslinger. Or a zen monk/ inquisitor combination. Possibly a myrmidarch. Though I could be a Kensai and do wonderful things as well.
It is hard to fill a role when many archetypes that would be really good or would be fun flavor aren't allowed. I would love to have guided hands, but I can't because ultimate magic isn't involved.
I think if i recall right it is because he ordered books, but that didn't include ultimate magic or ultimate combat.
It really doesn't help that I only have contact with him once every two months maybe until the game actually starts. I can't discuss anything. All i was told was to make an archer and that i couldn't use UM or UC. Also only core classes
lucien pyrus wrote: It was really for an archer cleric who only took zen archer up until level 3.
with flurry you would end up with 13/13/8/3. without flurry you would end up with 13 (x2)/13/8/3. You would end up with one more attack and that would be hard to pass up.
Remember, flurry uses monk level for BAB, but otherwise you use standard monk BAB.
So flurry vs. rapidshot attack bonus progression (manyshot damage indicated by *), build given in first post:
Level 4 - ZA3/Cleric 1: +1/+1 vs. +0/+0
Level 5 - ZA3/Cleric 2: +2/+2 vs. +1/+1
Level 6 - ZA3/Cleric 3: +3/+3 vs. +2/+2
Level 7 - ZA3/Cleric 4: +4/+4/-1 vs. +3/+3
Level 8 - ZA3/Cleric 5: +4/+4/-1 vs. +3/+3
Level 9 - ZA3/Cleric 6: +5/+5/+0 vs. +4(x2)/+4/-1
Level 10 - ZA3/Cleric 7: +6/+6/+1 vs. +5(x2)/+5/+0
Level 11 - ZA3/Cleric 8: +7/+7/+2 vs. +6(x2)/+6/+1
Level 12 - ZA3/Cleric 9: +7/+7/+2 vs. +6(x2)/+6/+1
Level 13 - ZA3/Cleric 10: +8/+8/+3 vs. +7(x2)/+7/+2
Level 14 - ZA3/Cleric 11: +9/+9/+4/-1 vs. +8(x2)/+8/+3
Level 15 - ZA3/Cleric 12: +10/+10/+5/+0 vs. +9(x2)/+9/+4/-1
Level 16 - ZA3/Cleric 13: +10/+10/+5/+0 vs. +9(x2)/+9/+4/-1
Level 17 - ZA3/Cleric 14: +11/+11/+6/+1 vs. +10(x2)/+10/+5/+0
Level 18 - ZA3/Cleric 15: +12/+12/+7/+2 vs. +11(x2)/+11/+6/+1
Level 19 - ZA3/Cleric 16: +13/+13/+8/+3 vs. +12(x2)/+12/+7/+2
Level 20 - ZA3/Cleric 17: +13/+13/+8/+3 vs. +12(x2)/+12/+7/+2
So, you spend two feats and -1 to attacks to get the Manyshot damage bonus.
Comparatively, flurry progression from a ZA4-then-cleric build that uses a ki point to gain an attack in a flurry:
Level 4 - ZA4/Cleric 0: +2/+2/+2
Level 5 - ZA4/Cleric 1: +2/+2/+2
Level 6 - ZA4/Cleric 2: +3/+3/+3
Level 7 - ZA4/Cleric 3: +4/+4/+4/-1
Level 8 - ZA4/Cleric 4: +5/+5/+5/+0
Level 9 - ZA4/Cleric 5: +5/+5/+5/+0
Level 10 - ZA4/Cleric 6: +6/+6/+6/+1
Level 11 - ZA4/Cleric 7: +7/+7/+7/+2
Level 12 - ZA4/Cleric 8: +8/+8/+8/+3
Level 13 - ZA4/Cleric 9: +8/+8/+8/+3
Level 14 - ZA4/Cleric 10: +9/+9/+9/+4/-1
Level 15 - ZA4/Cleric 11: +10/+10/+10/+5/+0
Level 16 - ZA4/Cleric 12: +11/+11/+11/+6/+1
Level 17 - ZA4/Cleric 13: +11/+11/+11/+6/+1
Level 18 - ZA4/Cleric 14: +12/+12/+12/+7/+2
Level 19 - ZA4/Cleric 15: +13/+13/+13/+8/+3
Level 20 - ZA4/Cleric 16: +14/+14/+14/+9/+4/-1
see wrote: lucien pyrus wrote: It was really for an archer cleric who only took zen archer up until level 3.
with flurry you would end up with 13/13/8/3. without flurry you would end up with 13 (x2)/13/8/3. You would end up with one more attack and that would be hard to pass up.
Remember, flurry uses monk level for BAB, but otherwise you use standard monk BAB.
So flurry vs. rapidshot attack bonus progression (manyshot damage indicated by *), build given in first post:
Level 4 - ZA3/Cleric 1: +1/+1 vs. +0/+0
Level 5 - ZA3/Cleric 2: +2/+2 vs. +1/+1
Level 6 - ZA3/Cleric 3: +3/+3 vs. +2/+2
Level 7 - ZA3/Cleric 4: +4/+4/-1 vs. +3/+3
Level 8 - ZA3/Cleric 5: +4/+4/-1 vs. +3/+3
Level 9 - ZA3/Cleric 6: +5/+5/+0 vs. +4(x2)/+4/-1
Level 10 - ZA3/Cleric 7: +6/+6/+1 vs. +5(x2)/+5/+0
Level 11 - ZA3/Cleric 8: +7/+7/+2 vs. +6(x2)/+6/+1
Level 12 - ZA3/Cleric 9: +7/+7/+2 vs. +6(x2)/+6/+1
Level 13 - ZA3/Cleric 10: +8/+8/+3 vs. +7(x2)/+7/+2
Level 14 - ZA3/Cleric 11: +9/+9/+4/-1 vs. +8(x2)/+8/+3
Level 15 - ZA3/Cleric 12: +10/+10/+5/+0 vs. +9(x2)/+9/+4/-1
Level 16 - ZA3/Cleric 13: +10/+10/+5/+0 vs. +9(x2)/+9/+4/-1
Level 17 - ZA3/Cleric 14: +11/+11/+6/+1 vs. +10(x2)/+10/+5/+0
Level 18 - ZA3/Cleric 15: +12/+12/+7/+2 vs. +11(x2)/+11/+6/+1
Level 19 - ZA3/Cleric 16: +13/+13/+8/+3 vs. +12(x2)/+12/+7/+2
Level 20 - ZA3/Cleric 17: +13/+13/+8/+3 vs. +12(x2)/+12/+7/+2
So, you spend two feats and -1 to attacks to get the Manyshot damage bonus.
Comparatively, flurry progression from a ZA4-then-cleric build that uses a ki point to gain an attack in a flurry:
Level 4 - ZA4/Cleric 0: +2/+2/+2
Level 5 - ZA4/Cleric 1: +2/+2/+2
Level 6 - ZA4/Cleric 2: +3/+3/+3
Level 7 - ZA4/Cleric 3: +4/+4/+4/-1
Level 8 - ZA4/Cleric 4: +5/+5/+5/+0
Level 9 - ZA4/Cleric 5: +5/+5/+5/+0
Level 10 - ZA4/Cleric 6: +6/+6/+6/+1
Level 11 - ZA4/Cleric 7: +7/+7/+7/+2
Level 12 - ZA4/Cleric 8: +8/+8/+8/+3
Level 13 - ZA4/Cleric 9: +8/+8/+8/+3
Level 14 - ZA4/Cleric 10: +9/+9/+9/+4/-1
Level 15 - ZA4/Cleric 11: ... Thanks for the info.
After weighing things, I think I could be an excelent archer with a ZA6/ cleric 14 build.
If I can get permission to do the archetype, then i'll end up doing a ZA 9/ Empyreal sorcerer 1/ Arcane Archer 10
Grant me access to gravity bow and some tricks with sorcerer. Better yet it would be based off of wisdom. Then I would have normal progression for BAB with arcane archer and be able to choose the element of my arrows to overcome damage reduction.
The other thing i thought about was ZA 8/ Archaeologist 12. Give me a self buff, some bard spells up to 4th level, and rogue abilities. Evasion, improved evasion, and uncanny dodge. Very nice stuff
lucien pyrus wrote: It is really really frustrating because he isn't allowing ultimate magic or combat and can't be any class that isn't found in the core rulebook.
I'd love to be a halfling archer cavalier that is able to charge in when he sees an opportunity. Or a gunslinger. Or a zen monk/ inquisitor combination. Possibly a myrmidarch. Though I could be a Kensai and do wonderful things as well.
It is hard to fill a role when many archetypes that would be really good or would be fun flavor aren't allowed. I would love to have guided hands, but I can't because ultimate magic isn't involved.
I think if i recall right it is because he ordered books, but that didn't include ultimate magic or ultimate combat.
It really doesn't help that I only have contact with him once every two months maybe until the game actually starts. I can't discuss anything. All i was told was to make an archer and that i couldn't use UM or UC. Also only core classes
All I can say to this is, DANGER WILL ROBINSON! DANGER! DANGER!
So many red flags...
(Also, why in the world should it matters which books he owns? There's the SRD.)
BBT, where did you find that adaptive composite bow?
All i found was the guided property, which allows attack roll and damage based on WIS. Makes the cleric feat kind of redundant.
But now that i saw this weapon property (which is none-core, but still paizo as it seems) and also that feat, i really don´t understand the fuzz about weapon finesse anymore.
Adaptive is in the Ultimate Equipment book.
It allows a Composite Longbow(or Shortbow) to automatically match it's strength rating to your strength.
Uh nice. So a adaptive guided composite bow is really the way to go for clerics and monks and all other WIS guys hehe.
lucien pyrus wrote: If I can get permission to do the archetype, then i'll end up doing a ZA 9/ Empyreal sorcerer 1/ Arcane Archer 10 I really like this build, though I would go less ZA and more Sorc.
Dragonamedrake wrote: lucien pyrus wrote: If I can get permission to do the archetype, then i'll end up doing a ZA 9/ Empyreal sorcerer 1/ Arcane Archer 10 I really like this build, though I would go less ZA and more Sorc. ZA 8 would work well because you get that second delicious attack. Your main focus is the bow, so you don't want to lose that extra flurry. So ZA8/Sorcerer 2/AA 10. This ends up with 8 levels of sorcerer, BAB flurrying of +17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+2. Which matches up with the fighter.
You lose greater weapon proficiency and one notch of deadly aim in exchange for the AA abilities and 4th level spells.
Leaving at 6 gives you +16/+16/+11/+6/+1
One less attack than the fighter, though honestly manyshot suffers in the crit department. But then you gain 5th level spells. Which is a nice bonus for not losing too much BAB
Don't really know which one to take there
lucien pyrus wrote: Dragonamedrake wrote: lucien pyrus wrote: If I can get permission to do the archetype, then i'll end up doing a ZA 9/ Empyreal sorcerer 1/ Arcane Archer 10 I really like this build, though I would go less ZA and more Sorc. ZA 8 would work well because you get that second delicious attack. Your main focus is the bow, so you don't want to lose that extra flurry. So ZA8/Sorcerer 2/AA 10. This ends up with 8 levels of sorcerer, BAB flurrying of +17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+2. Which matches up with the fighter.
You lose greater weapon proficiency and one notch of deadly aim in exchange for the AA abilities and 4th level spells.
Leaving at 6 gives you +16/+16/+11/+6/+1
One less attack than the fighter, though honestly manyshot suffers in the crit department. But then you gain 5th level spells. Which is a nice bonus for not losing too much BAB
Don't really know which one to take there Yeah but if you go ZA 4/Empyreal Sorc 6/AA 10 you get...
+16 BAB so with Manyshot/Rapid Shot you get +14(+14)/+14/+9/+5/-1
All the ZA goodies
And you have 13th level caster (6th level spells)
Id do that and forget Flurry and go with Rapid/Manyshot. But your build is solid too. Probably hit more.
I was going to suggest the Paladin bow archetype until I read that your GM, who has FORCED you to pick a certain class and LIMITED your sourcebooks to near crippling, isn't allowing you to have much fun.
Other than simply telling this control freak to roll your character for you, there are many ideas here worth pursuing. The ZA/AA combinations are pretty insane.
Kudos to all who have suggested viable builds in this extreme environment. That's why I always come to these boards with ideas...
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