My character got killed last time and I need a new one. I'm considering an Eldritch Knight because I always liked the idea.
Available Sources: Core & APG
Party consists of a crossbow-wielding Urban Ranger/Skirmisher, a fighter using polearms with reach (no archetype), a Dwarven Cleric of Torag who will most likely go for Holy Vindicator and an Admixture Evoker who likes to blow up stuff (not realy the controler-type). We are currently level 6 and playing an AP that will probably run to about level 15 or so.
Here's the build as I plan it at the moment. Feel free to point out any possible improvements. Thank you in advance!
STR 15 (+2 racial, all increases go here)
DEX 12
CON 14 (+2 from Transmuter)
INT 16
WIS 10
CHA 7
Feats and [Bonus Feats]:
1 - Additional Traits (Reactionary, Magical Knack), [Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Falchion)]
3 - Arcane Strike
5 - Furious Focus
6 - [Still Spell]
7 - Iron Will, [Improved Initiative]
9 - Weapon Specialisation (Falchion)
11 - Quicken Spell, [Improved Critical (Falchion)]
13 - Greater Wapon Focus (Falchion)
15 - Dazing Assault, [Critical Focus]
As you can tell from the feats, I'm going for heavy armor + still spell. I plant to use a Spell Storing Falchion filled with Shocking Grasp (and later Vampiric Touch).
Our GM doesn't like giving traits for free, hence the Additional Traits feat.
Things I'm unsure about:
1. Level 7 feat. Iron Will? Combat Casting? Something completely different?
2. Dazing Assault. Worth the investment with what's basically 3/4 BAB? If not: What else to take?
3. Opposing schools. Enchantment will be the first one but I don't know about the second one. I need pretty much every school in some form. It'll most likely be either Divination or Necromancy. Divination is mostly not needed because we got 2 more casters. But having True Strike would be very very good. Then again, I don't have much use for my level 1 slots (I mean, stilled acid splash?). So I could easily use to two or four of them for a few true strikes. It does get harder at higher levels because sacrificing two level 5 slots for a quickened true strike really hurts.
Personally I think it's pretty easy to live without necromancy, but you did say you want Vampiric Touch.
When are you level dipping for Fighter? It looks like you will be doing it at level 6. You won't be able to take Still Spell as the bonus figher feat. I'd also consider working towards getting the Spell Prefection feat by level 15, but that depends on how you want to play. Just going what with something - quickened True Strikes as a level 1 spell with the Dazing Assualt feat sounds like it might be fun, although I would be a little concerned about the DC.
Fighter is my first level. That's why I get 2 bonus feats at that level (second one is from human). It's also good for the maximized HD. Still spell at level 6 is the 5th level wizard bonus feat.
Necromancy is not only for Vampiric Touch, but also for Enervation and Blindness - the latter being one of the very few verbal only offensive spells. Won't work often, but I figure if an enemy with low fort save is out of reach so I couldn't do much anyway, it might be worth a shot.
I thought about Spell Perfection and having Quickened True Strikes in 1st level slots does sound awesome. But it would require another Meta-Magic feat. That would be either Extend (for buffs) or Intesify (for Shocking grasp, Magus-style). Also, only one level after Spell Perfection, I'd get Spell Critical, which sounds like an even better use for my swift action.
The magus combo works quite well for EKs if you are willing to invest in a spell storing weapon:
Intensified Spell
+ Magical Lineage
+ Shocking grasp
+ spell storing weapon
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CL * d6 on one strike per battle
keeps 1st level slots useable at high level
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Breiti: Magical Lineage is not really any good because an ElK needs his Magical Knack trait, and you can't take more than one trait from the same list.
Opposition schools: I'd pick Enchantment as one of them - you're not planning on upping your caster stat as you level, and have other things to spend Feats on, so you're never going to have a high save DC for your spells, and enchantments tend to be spells with saves. Illusion spells are in a similar boat, no matter how much I love 'em, so that'd be a reasonable second opposition school (and you can always pay the extra slots to prepare those Illusory Wall spells to liven up your home base...). Unless you're planning a lot of use of vanish and the like, of course. Losing True Strike as a 1 spell per spell slot spell (say that five times fast...) just seems extremely painful for an ElK.
I see you've not gone for the Arcane Armour Training and Arcane Armour Mastery Feats. While you won't be blowing a swift action every turn to use them, they do mean you can confidently cast on those rounds you are spellcasting without stripping off your armour. ElKs have to keep in mind they're not Magi - they generally don't cast and melee at the same time, they alternate casting and melee, and rely on self-bolstering spells (being a Transmuter I'm guessing that's at least part of the plan, right?). Still Spell helps, but you're losing out on a spell level every time, and most spells you cast will be on rounds when you aren't engaged in melee - so the swift action for AAT / AAM instead of Arcane Strike (or saving it for Spell Critical, when you get there) isn't really a big deal. You only really need Still Spell so you've got more options for when you do get Spell Critical, or for otherwise swift or immediate action spells, which you get to cast on the rounds when you're meleeing as well.
EDIT: While you're at it, I'd recommend either the Shapechange or Enhancement sub-schools for the Transmuter levels - TK Fist kinda' sucks, whereas Shapechange can give you an extra natural attack (always good for melee types), or Enhancement could let you grant +2 enhancement bonuses to any Ability Score or natural armour for a couple of rounds, which can be useful to your whole party in all sorts of situations.
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No AAT or AAM?
Generally speaking quicken spell is wasted for the EK. You don't have enough swift actions as it is BEFORE you toss in quicken spell. AAT and AS will be eating up your swifts. And if you crit after level 16, you will want a swift as well. Even if you skip out of AAT, it means you can only swift on actions where your casting and not when doing an attack (unless you don't use AS...which kinda means your not really maximizing your feats). Your plan to still spell everything, that means you will be 2 spell levels behind instead of just 1. That is gonna be painful. Still spell can be still helpful to maximize your action economy at higher levels...but for me, I find it not really worth the feat for a EK.
Dazing assault can work...you just need to be buffed to all hells to do it. Greater heroism + giantform 1 = +7 to hit. Even then, the save is still doable for many things you fight at those levels that are a challenge, so it is more of something you do to mooks then anything against bosses. Still DC 22-23 is failed sometimes even by bosses.... I generally like it because it's fun to do it before you shield bash something into a hungry pit.
On a side note, enhcantment barred will negate one of the better buff options you have for an EK...heroism and greater heroism. Hideous laughter, touch of idiocy, rage and the power word line ain't bad either. One of the reasons I make my EKs into a generalist is that you kinda need spells from all the schools and evocation is the easiest one to live without...but many people like to have blasty EKs for some reason. Besisdes which, I can never really pick the second opposite school. Divination is just too good. Knoweldge is power and this school makes most AP encounters a cake walk when used properly. Necro has vampiric touch (which I keep mutiples memorized of and kinda vital to survival for EK...kind of a meh spell for normal wizard tho...which is why necro is kind of a no brainer choice for normal wizards). Don't even think about conjuration or transmutation for opposite schools...that is just silly talk. Abjuration and illusion has a good chunk of your protective buffs. If I really wanted to specialize tho, I would pick from evocation, divination, abjuration.
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Thanks for the advice so far!
@ProfPotts: Illusion is totally not an option for my opposed school. Blur and Displacement are both verbal only spells and pretty good defensive spells. Even "just" stilled Mirror Image would be reason enough to keep that school.
As for AAT/AAM I have long thought about going that way. It's true that I won't have use for Arcane Strike and AAM in the same round (not before Spell Critical, anyway), but relying on AAM limits the use of Quicken Spell (via Critical or not) too much for my liking. Using Verbal only spells and Stilled Spells also has the advantage that I don't need to care about how much ASF my armor has. So I can easily wear heavy armor. In the end, I save two feats and my AC is improved by 3. I think that's well worth being one (more) spell level behind. And there are always a few useful spells without somatic component.
Still, I hadn't really conidered using AAM for regular casts and still spell for Spell Critical and other Quickened casts. I think I might give this another thought.
Oh, and I totally intent to take the Enhancement school. Forgot to mention that. Shapechange is nice but it would be yet another swift action I can't spare. But Enhancement looks like I might find the occasional use for the level 1 ability.
@Cold Napalm: Well, as I said, I've been thinking a lot about AAM. I can see the pros and cons and I'm not yet convinced either way. Fitting AAT and AAM into the build should not be a big problem, but making that decision is not so easy for me.
I think it mostly comes down to the spells I will use. If I use mostly buffs/defensive spells I don't mind being behind another spell level. I do have the advantage of starting at level 6, so the worst levels are already behind me and I could use still spell without much difficulty.
If however, I end up using more offensive spells falling another level behind would be not so great if only for the spell DCs.
Since we don't really have a "frontline" type of character, I wanted to fill that gap. That's why I aimed for heavy armor. In fact, my second idea for a new character would have been a Battle Oracle.
That being said, I'm also bothered by the fact that our Wizard doesn't do much else than Blasting and - thankfully - the occasional haste. I personally prefer the God-Wizard approach and if possible I would like to use battlefield control spells whenever needed. So I'm also thinking about switching STR and INT, leaving STR at 16 and increasing INT on all level ups. Should give me a few more spells per day and a DC high enough to at least hit some enemies with control spells. With that approach, I'd definitely take AAM but I'm not sure if it can even work.
As for the spell schools: I don't like Enchantment. Just a personal preference, really. Sure, losing Heroism sucks, but we still got another Wizard and a buff-happy cleric in the group so I think I can make do without heroism - or just spend two slots on it if I really need to. Likewise, Divination is good, but with two more full-casters in the pary, I don't think I need to cover that as well. Except for True Strike, of course.
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If EK is ur main shtick then i suggest 4 levels fighter, 6 sorcerer, and 10 Ek. The reason for the 4 levels of fighter so u can qualify for Critical Mastery. For feats get Critical Mastery, Critical Focus, Sickening Critical, Exhausting Critical, Tiring Critical, Improved Critical, Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dance, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Skill Focus, Eldritch Heritage, Improved Eldritch Heritage, and Greater Eldritch Heritage. Using the Heritage feats u can buy bloodline special abilities. The rest of the feats is to make ur crits insane. Ur crits will give the sicken condition as well as the exhausted condition along with being able to do weapon crit damage and EK's special ability of casting a spell as a swift action when u crit. With a crit of 15+ on a d20 this should be occurring very often.
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Psion-Psycho: OP said core & APG only, so Eldritch Heritage and Dervish Dance and the like aren't on the table.
Armour-wise, at level 6 you could have AAT, but you won't yet qualify for AAM - so it's mithral chain shirt territory. Of course, that only grants as much base armour bonus as a Mage Armour spell, so in many ways you'd be better off going un-armoured and casting that until you can qualify for AAM. You'll qualify at level 7, thanks to Magical Knack boosting your caster level, so it might be an idea to just start saving for that mithral full plate now. Or you could stick to AAT and go for a magical mithral chain shirt (a +3 mithral shirt costs you 10,100gp for a +7 total armour bonus Vs un-enhanced mithral full plate which costs you 10,500gp for a +9 armour bonus). It sounds like you're planning on making sensible use of various non-AC related defensive spells, so armour may not be that much of an issue anyway.
Personally I tend to use the rule-of-thumb that if you're planning on relying on your AC to protect you, you need to be aiming to have at least an AC of 20 higher than your level. That way a level-equivalent full BAB bad guy with no other bonuses needs a 20 to hit you; any bonuses (and what bad guy doesn't have any?) and they're hitting more often. With mithral full plate and a Dex of 12 you're hitting an AC of 20, with a Shield spell running you hit 24, so it's getting up there, but you'll still be taking plenty of hits. So, yes, defensive illusion spells - good choice! Of course 'mundane' steel full plate could be enchanted to +3 for 10,650gp (total) and be giving you an armour bonus of +12: with Dex and a Shield spell that's a much more respectable 27. So if ca$h is an issue, then your idea of forgoing AAT and AAM certainly has merit. Plus the usual amulet of natural armour and ring of protection adventurers seem to be issued with as standard, of course... ;)
What guidelines are you using for equipment anyway? If you take the Craft Magical Arms and Armour Feat can you enchant stuff for half price before play begins? That could be a big boon for an ElK, Feat-starved though they may be. Also, I'm assuming an Arcane Bonded object, rather than a familiar (because familiars which don't level with you kinda' suck) - so which type? I ask because of the whole bit about being able to enchant the thing as if you had the correct Feat - so a weapon (although prone to being disarmed and sundered) would (hopefully, if that's an option you're allowed before play begins) let you at least enchant it for half-price without needing the Feat. Or an amulet maybe (to enchant as an amulet of natural armour)?
Have you looked at the Hellknight Signifier as an alternative to the EK?
Quickened True Strike does not care bout somatic components and gives a +20 to one attack (specifically the secondary/tertiary one)
with the books youre using, I think Arcane Armor Training is not a bad idea. Simply because you can't rely on dervish dance, and still spell sets you back in spells.
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Quickened True Strike does not care bout somatic components and gives a +20 to one attack (specifically the secondary/tertiary one)
with the books youre using, I think Arcane Armor Training is not a bad idea. Simply because you can't rely on dervish dance, and still spell sets you back in spells. Also, remember you're going to be behind on BAB.
Consider this:
Fighter 1/Wizard 5/EK 9 (level 15 because that was the cap expectation)
Stats: Same as above
Level 1: Fighter: 3 feats (Additional Traits:Reactionary, Magical Knack, Weapon Focus (Falchion), Power Attack)
Level 2: Wizard 1, get the familiar (Compsognatus, if that's not available, Get something that flies like a raven), transmutation school, barring necromancy and enchantment (You lose out on Heroism and a couple spells though. Probably just prepare true strike and something with either a long duration, OR true strike. Alternatively, cast Mage Armor, and prepare whatever spell you want.
Level 3: Wiz 2, Toughness
Level 5: Wiz 4, Arcane Armor Training. At this point you should have enough gold to buy yourself a mithril chain shirt, possibly +1 (it's only 2100 with the enhancement). Your bonus feat can be a metamagic feat.
Level 6: Wiz 5, consider reach spell, piercing spell, or Heighten Spell
Level 7: EK1, you get 2 feats: with a BAB of 4, Power attack just scaled up. So get Furious Focus. For your second feat, Take Extend Spell (doubling the duration for the low investment of +1 spell level is pretty awesome, hell by this point Shield lasts for 14 minutes. You can cast it before you enter a dungeon)
Level 9: EK3, Take Improved Familiar
Level 11: EK 5, Take Weapon Specialization (Falchion), Also take Intensified Spell, use it for shocking grasp and the occasional blast spell.
Level 13: EK7 Take Quicken Spell.
Level 15: EK9 Take Spell Perfection (true strike). At this point you should be near the end of the campaign. You have a BAB of 12/7/2, but you can make the third attack of the turn a +20, before adding any bonuses due to stats, Greater Magic Weapon, whatever. Also, when you hit your opponent, you can choose to discarge your intensified Shocking Grasp for 10d6 extra damage. Also, take Greater Weapon Focus.
Level 16: Eldritch Knight 10. At this point You can do your first 2 attacks (at +14/9), then if you crit, use spell critical to use a power word (which cost 2 spell slots, but can end the fight), OR cast a perfect quickened true strike (costing you only a level 1 spell slot) and guarantee a hit.
This is off the top of my head. This is for a more balanced gish.
Personally, I'd do away with weapon spec and weapon focus spells, but I know that missing is very very bad
OH and if you don't care much for true strike, you can always take still spell and cast perfect intensified quickened shocking grasps, or use those 3 weapon focus/specialization feats to get Weapon focus + specialization (ray), and point blank master, and hit for 12d6+4 (or 12, depending on GM) Scorching rays as part of your full round attack actions.
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Quickened True Strike does not care bout somatic components and gives a +20 to one attack (specifically the secondary/tertiary one)
Wrong...it gives +20 on your NEXT attack. You do not get to pick when the bonus kicks in. Kinda why it is kind of a meh spell. Even for an EK, you generally still hit your first shot unless your completely unbuffed.
Wrong...it gives +20 on your NEXT attack. You do not get to pick when the bonus kicks in. Kinda why it is kind of a meh spell. Even for an EK, you generally still hit your first shot unless your completely unbuffed.Quickened True Strike does not care bout somatic components and gives a +20 to one attack (specifically the secondary/tertiary one)
But you can take a Swift Action during your full attack so you could actually just cast it before the second or third attack.
@ProfPotts: Even with only AAT, I'd definitely get a mithral breast plate right now. We've been level 6 for some time already so I expect us to go to 7 before long. Until then, I can live with 5% ASF.
I'm not quite sure why you suggest a Mithral Full Plate, though. Even with AAM, I'd still have 5% ASF in full plate unless I'm missing something? I'm not sure I can live with that for the rest of the AP. I'd rather stick with breast plate.
Our GM was very generous with equipment. I'm actually allowed to use the crafting feats of the group when buying my equipment. Our Wizard has CWI and the cleric got CMAA. So yeah, I can buy almost everything at half price. I won't get a ring of protection right now, because I have a ring as bonded item and I'll start enchanting it myself when I get to level 7.
Right now, IF I'm going the AAM route, I'm planning to get an Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Belt of Giant Strength +2, Mithral Breastplate +2, Cloak of Resistance +1, Falchion +1, Headband of Vast Intellect +2. With that, I have about 2900 gp left for scrolls and minor equipment. My AC would be 20, and could be increased to 26 with shield and protection from evil. Nothing to write home about, but solid enough when coupled with Mirror Image and/or Displacement.
For reference, the still spell variant of my character would replace the breastplate with a full plate +2 and probably add a ring of protection +1 right away and maybe boots of striding and springing. Leaves about 1700 gp. Total AC 24, with shield 28. Very solid.
@Son of the Veterinarian: Haven't looked at it because it's not in a source alloowed by my GM. And even if it was, I'd probably not take it. The AP is nowhere near any Hellknights so it wouldn't make any sense. Thanks for the suggestion, though :)
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But you can take a Swift Action during your full attack so you could actually just cast it before the second or third attack.Wrong...it gives +20 on your NEXT attack. You do not get to pick when the bonus kicks in. Kinda why it is kind of a meh spell. Even for an EK, you generally still hit your first shot unless your completely unbuffed.Quickened True Strike does not care bout somatic components and gives a +20 to one attack (specifically the secondary/tertiary one)
Geh...missed your talking about quickened. Yeah, that is assuming no AS tho. You can't AS and quicken the same round. Not sure spending a 5th level spell for one hit and not using AS is worth it.
@Zolthux: First of all, thanks for your excellent EK-guide. Did a lot to make me finally want to play the class :)
I must say, I'm not sure that getting AAT without AAM is worth it. I mean, the difference is just 2 AC (breastplate vs chain shirt) but still...
With AAT/M, I think I might go for a more caster-ish gish, simply because I won't be that much behind a "true" wizard. I might even increase INT instead of STR. Even at level 15, the difference is like -2 attack and -3. And yes, the minus attack hurts. But without the need for still spell, I feel like I can more freely use my spells for more offensive buffs like heroism (even as opposed school) or Twilight Knife (free flanking!).
My current plan for the AAM variant would look like this
STR 16
DEX 12
CON 14 (+2 from Transmuter)
INT 15 (+2 racial, all increases go here)
WIS 10
CHA 7
Feats and [Bonus Feats]:
1 - Additional Traits (Reactionary, Magical Knack), [Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Falchion)]
3 - Arcane Strike
5 - AAT
6 - [Some Meta Magic feat, probably Intensified*]
7 - AAM, [Furious Focus]
9 - Weapon Specialisation (Falchion)
11 - Quicken Spell*, [Improved Critical (Falchion)]
13 - Greater Wapon Focus (Falchion)
15 - Dazing Assault*, [Critical Focus]
*Not really sure about these. Quicken won't work with AAM, so I'd be limited to V only spells.
Geh...missed your talking about quickened. Yeah, that is assuming no AS tho. You can't AS and quicken the same round. Not sure spending a 5th level spell for one hit and not using AS is worth it.But you can take a Swift Action during your full attack so you could actually just cast it before the second or third attack.Wrong...it gives +20 on your NEXT attack. You do not get to pick when the bonus kicks in. Kinda why it is kind of a meh spell. Even for an EK, you generally still hit your first shot unless your completely unbuffed.Quickened True Strike does not care bout somatic components and gives a +20 to one attack (specifically the secondary/tertiary one)
I mentioned perfecting it so you only use up level 1 spell slots :O
but yeah i dont feel like doing math, so it boils down to asking if the damage from arcane strike > the damage from an extra guaranteed hit
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I mentioned perfecting it so you only use up level 1 spell slots :Obut yeah i dont feel like doing math, so it boils down to asking if the damage from arcane strike > the damage from an extra guaranteed hit
Spell perfection needs 3 feats in addition to quicken spell...and can't be done til level 15 which is the end of the game for him...so not really useful.
In addition to? Quicken spell counts as one, and you get one free metamagic feat at level 5.
But yeah, 15 is too high level to have it be that useful
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You're right on the Mithral Breast Plate - I'd generally consider that the best option for an AAT/AAM ElK. Just mentioned the full plate as you seemed keen on a bit of a tank up-thread, and ultimately you'd get more AC for just the 5% ASF chance (but it only has to crop up once to be too many times, right? ;) ).
but yeah i dont feel like doing math, so it boils down to asking if the damage from arcane strike > the damage from an extra guaranteed hit
It's probably circumstantial - if you're pretty sure those later attacks aren't going to hit, then True Strike, but if there's a good chance they'll hit without the boost, then Arcane Strike. Of course if you're talking combat maneuvers which get better results for every 5 you score over the target's CMD, then True Strike does indeed rock!
I used to have a paladin 2/Verdant sorcerer gish who used tanglevine and would do stuff like true strike -> tanglevine trip or disarm to get giant boosts
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It's probably circumstantial - if you're pretty sure those later attacks aren't going to hit, then True Strike, but if there's a good chance they'll hit without the boost, then Arcane Strike. Of course if you're talking combat maneuvers which get better results for every 5 you score over the target's CMD, then True Strike does indeed rock!
Hehe...very true...I do like true strike with my shield slams...especially right into a hungry pit :) .
you can take swift and free actions in between attacks