I'll be taking a level 4 Vivisectionist / Ragechemist Alchemist into my local hobby store game tonight. The campaign is very combat-intensive, with an often large amount of players (8 to 10 at times) going up against some pretty tough encounters.
My question...how fast, round-wise, do those of you with experience in this type of build "hulk up"? I have the "Accelerated Drinker" trait to imbibe potions on a move action, but even still, having to 'cast' all of the following just seems to take a really long time:
0. Invisibility (Extract, Standard Action)
1. Feral Mutagen (Standard Action)
2. Alchemical Allocation (Extract, Standard Action)
3. Bull's Strength (Potion, Move Action retrieve, Move Action Drink)
4. Shield (Extract, Standard Action)
5. Enlarge Person (Extract, Standard Action)
and possibly:
6. Magic Fang (Potion if necessary due to DRs, on my Bite, Move action retrieve, move action drink)
I plan on dipping into a level of "Drunken Brute" Barbarian at level 5, for the Rage and the "No AoOs on Potion drinking" abilities. But, in this campaign, making it to level 5 is slow and not guaranteed, as the character death rate in the group is high. I figured having access to lvl 2 Alchemist Formulae such as Invisiblity and my second Discovery (Spontaneous Healing) were better than going 3 Alch. / 1 Barb. to start.
Any suggestions on how I can "hulk up" faster, or ways to get into the combat mix further?
Don't buff up so much in combat. If you foresee a combat coming, pre-buff with the min/level buffs. Otherwise, unless it's a particularly dangerous encounter, I wouldn't be buffing at all.
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My best advice is simply this "DO NOT PLAY A RAGE CHEMIST"
I know thats harsh, but think about this.
you take a -2 Int from Mutagen then a -2 damn close to every time you take dammage.
when you hit 0 Int your out.
God forbid you ever go to level 6 alch. at that point you are at -4 each time.
In order to make this work at all you need to invest HEAVY in Will save. At that point just take the feats you would have spent on will and make yourself better in combat.
Also remember as soon as your int drops below 11 you stop being able to use any extracts.
So really, this is just a BAD idea.
Rage Chem is just really, really bad.
Like worse then Titan mauler bad.
A few things:
Many of the encounters in this campaign come while the party is camped out for the night, with part of the group "on watch" while the others are asleep. I don't have many pre-battle moments to get off buffs, especially if I'm not on the 'awake' watch when the baddies show up. More often, we're into the combat mix pretty fast, or ambushed, etc.
So...more often than not, I am buffing when combat has already been joined.
My wife plays a battle Oracle with some Restoration ability, so I'm not tooooo worried about the -Int drain from Ragechemist. I've already taken "Iron Will" as a feat as well. My will save is currently a +3. Not great on a DC 15 / 20 save, but it is what it is.
Regarding the Extract use, I only have 6 available Extracts (4 lvl 1, 2 lvl 2). Odds are, I will have used both my lvl 2 formulae before I get hit, and most of my lvl 1's. I have about 38 HP, so getting hit twice will give me a lot more to worry about than the one or two lvl 1 Extracts I might have left.
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Steroids
...I resent that. My mutagens have no banned substances!
If you have 2nd level extracts, get a potion of greater magic fang, high as you can get it. Use alchemal allocation, swish gmf potion, and bam, you have + up to 5 for up to 20 hours to a single natural attack, use 2x if you have 2 attacks etc. Use high mage armor potion in same manner. Use barbaraian with rage. Move action drink a bull's strength for final battle, if you need to shine. Good luck. I'm looking forward to playing visectionist my next character.
Reynard: Yeah, I came to the same conclusion, that there's just some times I'm going to have to go with the Mutagen alone, or with one other buff, and wade on in in order to get my XP.
Kahn: Great idea, unfortunately, picking up a CL20 GMF potion is a bit out of my starting price range as a level 4 character with a little over 1K GP total (Rich Parents trait + start GP roll). Fully plan on acquiring one, however, if I survive long enough to acrue the GP and the opportunity, to use with Alchemical Allocation.
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Also remember as soon as your int drops below 11 you stop being able to use any extracts.
Actually, that's not entirely true I believe. If your Int drops to 11, while you can no longer prepare extracts for the day, I belive you can still drink the extracts that you have prepared before the INT dropped below 11 for as long as the extracts remain viable.
Run from a lot of leshys they only do one damage but dang that can be a lot of will saves. Run even more if they have the young template for more to hit. A young leaf leshy is cr 1/3 so you could face 9 of them for a Cr 4 encounter and they have +5 to hit touch and do one damage. That is enough to make you take a will save.
Hm, that could be a problem for my future character too, having enough loot to buy the super sweet potions. I think I'll try and use his alchemal skills at potions, poisons, and alchemal items to hopefully scratch up some more loot.
This is the problem with vivisectionists, they have no options outside of wading into melee. I much prefer having the bombs as a fallback for when they can't be mutated or their mutations and buffs have expired.
Yea that will be a problem. I think you still get throw anything though, so you could use alchemist fire, acid, holy water etc in a crunch.
My best advice is simply this "DO NOT PLAY A RAGE CHEMIST"
Quoted for truth. Also don't forget each failed will save makes the next one harder. Or that there is no RAW legal way to terminate your mutagen early (aside from drinking a new mutagen), so if you find yourself in a death spiral, you can't just hit eject.
Friends don't let friends play Comatose Chemists.
This is the problem with vivisectionists, they have no options outside of wading into melee. I much prefer having the bombs as a fallback for when they can't be mutated or their mutations and buffs have expired.
Eh, at level 6 you get the Wings discovery to use when you need it. On top of Beastmorph's level 6 flight option to sustain you outside of the minutes the discovery does.
Before then, you still have +int to damage w/ splash weapons and can just use a ranged weapon and be a reasonable threat. If you're able to sneak attack, you're pretty deadly at range, too.Not that big an issue. Overcoming DR when you can't sneak attack...that is a bit of an issue.
Ranged options only need to be relevant until level 6, because from that point on, you have tactical flight. Is what I'm saying.
Assuming a typical str-based Viv. alchemist, a sling gives you a 50 ft range increment, a respectable enough to hit bonus, and does something around 1d4 +6 with the mutagen running. That is decent enough for the first 5 levels of play, and costs practically nothing. If you want to invest in masterwork and/or a composite bow (there's a trait for proficiency, iirc), even better.
Or, I could just rely on my 8 to 10 other group members to do things, too.
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If you can swing it with your GM try a couple of 'spring-loaded wrist sheaths' from the Adventurer's Armoury with a potion vial in each. Used to be an immediate action to draw the item into hand, but last I checked it'd been re-conned into a swift action. Still, it helps a little. Technically the description talks about holding 'one light weapon, ranged weapon, or wand that weighs less than 1 pound' or 'up to 1 pound of ammunition', but potions vials in the game are described as '1 ounce of liquid' and 'no more than 1 inch wide and 2 inches high' so should fit. With accelerated drinker that'd at least let you quaff a potion and an extract in one round (sort of... accelarated drinker does state 'if you start the turn with the potion in your hand' so you may need to swift action it into hand at the end of the previous round... which may not be as much help, depending on what else is going on).
If you get to 8th level Alchemist the the combine exracts discovery springs to mind, but it sounds like that's a long stretch away for you... ;)
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Ranged options only need to be relevant until level 6, because from that point on, you have tactical flight. Is what I'm saying.
Assuming a typical str-based Viv. alchemist, a sling gives you a 50 ft range increment, a respectable enough to hit bonus, and does something around 1d4 +6 with the mutagen running. That is decent enough for the first 5 levels of play, and costs practically nothing. If you want to invest in masterwork and/or a composite bow (there's a trait for proficiency, iirc), even better.
The point is it isn't just about ranged. It's about having a completely different way to approach a problem. Just as an example, there are creatures you are far better off never approaching in melee. A sling with a mediocre dexterity and medium BAB gets you a pitiful rate of fire and lots of misses.
How do I hulk up? Here's my secret.
It is going to be an issue for me when the monsters start having dr. That's one of the things that the bomb ability really has going for it.
Why are people suggesting that bombs are good versus Damage Reduction?
Because they generally ignore it entirely, perhaps?