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So I've been brainstorming about a champion of Irori build recently and here are some things that I've come across.
1.) You can get wis to hit instead of strength with either sensei (bad because you give up flurry) or the guided hand feat (hmm...), BTW, good catch Loreseeker!
2.) You need to channel to get the guided hand feat, so you could either take 4 levels of paladin (urrgh, forever) or one level of cleric (hmmm..., but you do give up one BaB though).
3.) One level of cleric isn't bad because Irori has the strength domain which means enlarge person which is good for damage based monks. (With theologian you can prep it in regular slots and the domain slot which is 3x casting at 1st level)
4.) With a ring of ki mastery you can smite evil for 1 ki point (ditto lay on hands), basically smite evil all day long if you want.
So a build looking something like:
Aasimar (for the stats) Clr 1(Theologian)/ Pal2 (?) / Monk 3 (? Maybe hungry ghost monk for steal ki) / CoI X
Stats (20 point buy) would look like this:
Str 12
Dex 12
Con 11
Int 10
Wis 18
Cha 16
Now what feats would be good for this build?
Need:
Channel Smite
Guided Hand
Would be nice:
Dodge
Crane Style
Crane Wing
Crane Riposte
Extra Ki (If I can fit it in)
?
prototype00
The scion of humanity racial trait fixes the humanoid angle as it makes them count as humanoid(human).
Hmm, wisdom in the flesh, I had missed that trait, it's not bad, but I was leaning towards Quain martial artist for the extra damage.
prototype00
Giving up flurry isn't really that bad as long as you don't go Monk 5 (which is a terrible level anyways...), both Paladin and CoI are full BAB. It also conflicts with smite if you fight outsiders, aberration, fey, dragons or undead, as smite's extra damage only applies to the first hit.
Eh, it's three feats for free (TWF, ITWF and GTWF), and while the extra extra damage only applies to the first hit, the regular extra damage applies to every hit (which is a lot of hits from flurrying).
I honestly think a wis dumping charisma focused champion using a Sohei entry (Going by the RAI that Sohei keeps monk abilities in light armor) has potential. It lets you use Brawling armor and makes it so you aren't MAD as hell.
Thing is you have to hit with a stat, it can either be str, dex or wisdom, but not charisma. By dumping wis, you have to bulk up either str or dex and thus cha doesn't really benefit that much (at most you get a +1 bonus from 18 cha vs my current 16 cha). Sohei also gives up increased monk damage, while the brawling armor is nice, I'd rather be doing 4d8 damage eventually, personally.
Regardless of all that, remember Ring of Ki Mastery (UE) is mandatory for a CoI, as it reduces the cost to gain an extra smite to 1 Ki.
Oh yeah, I didn't miss that. Its what gives this build it's real umph.
Besides using a wyroot weapon and a ki mat, what other ki regaining tricks are there? Drunken master is out on account of still mind.
prototype00
Edit: Oh yeah, another good feat to have, Osyluth guile. If I could figure out how to get the ki flowing in better I could take bewildering koan as well.
3 really, really crappy feats.
TWF is crappy? News to me. Especially since you're eventually going to be doing a bunch of bonus damage from smite evil/chaotic or am I missing something?
Why can't you hit with Charisma? Once you have some method of restoring your Ki Pool, you can have as many smites as day as you can keep up the ki. 2d8 is 9 average and only at ECL 18 at the minimum, 1d8 (4.5)+2 is there from level 6 and has a +2 to hit on top of it.
Ah right, yes smiting, I had forgotten. 4d8 is at CL 20 (or 15 with a monk's belt, 17 if you take into consideration levels in paladin) with enlarge person cast. Large 20th level monks do 4d8 damage, right?
Still not sure charisma is the way to go, though. Especially since it'll take quite a while to get going (1 level of paladin isn't going to get you very far in smites, and it'll be at earliest lvl 5/6 before you get your first level in champion of Irori.
As for Ki restoration, there are Ki Leech spell (not recommended) and Bronze Gong/Meditation Crystal channel foci (requires a party member of the right class, but note that dippers and even Necromancers can power it. Taking Oath of Vengence would be better than using Paladin 4 to power it)
Ah the bronze gong sounds like a good idea, this character is already a dipper worshipper of Irori after all, and should have 6 uses of channel energy straight off the bat from the level of cleric. Sweet, 6 extra ki points/day.
Oath of vengence seems like a good idea, though this character probably won't get paladin 4th until much later. Still not bad, especially since he already gets channel energy from the cleric level.
prototype00
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Wisdom in the Flesh trait allows you to use wisdom for a Dex or Str based skill.
You can go Inquisitor, and use wisdom for initiative, and with the available Inquisitions and Archetypes, use your wisdom for many things.
You can easily get x2 wisdom to Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Stealth.
With the Channel, or Familiar granting Animal/Terrain Domains, you can get Channel Smite, and Guided Hand.
Things like the Marid and Efreet will allow you to add wisdom to damage.
The Guided enchantment is best for wisdom to attack rolls and damage, but is in the 3.5, but also Pathfinder era, so a bit of a gamble for DM approval.
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I say stick with base Paladin/Monk. Most Monk archetypes replace Still Mind which is required for Champion of Irori. And I wouldn't dump Cha for a couple of reasons.
First, Paladin 2 for Divine Grace and Lay on Hands is a solid boost defensively. Even a 14 Cha adds another +2 to your saves, and also grants more Lay on Hands uses (which do get better after Champion level 2).
Second, your biggest damage boost will be smites and the higher your Charisma, the better your chances of hitting. And since you're going to be smiting many things with the Ring of Ki Mastery, you'll want to make the most of each one.
I suggest going Dex, Wis, and Cha focused. This is a build I want to use for PFS.
Aasimar (regular for +2 Wis/Cha)
Str 12
Dex 14
Con 13
Int 12
Wis 14+2
Cha 13+2
Boost Cha to 16 at level 4, then go Wis or Dex.
You are part knowledge guy and can then go party face or agile guy (use Wisdom in the Flesh to make a skill like Climb, Swim, or Stealth as a Wisdom skill). If you want to simplify your stats, either convince your DM to let you use the Guided weapon property, or just go Weapon Finesse/Agile.
Go Paladin 2/Monk 3/Champion X.
My thoughts on this anyway.
EDIT: and BBT ninja'd some stuff, but just means my thoughts are valid :)
I say stick with base Paladin/Monk. Most Monk archetypes replace Still Mind which is required for Champion of Irori. And I wouldn't dump Cha for a couple of reasons.
There are a couple of decent monk archetypes that don't dump still mind. But even for the good ones, you give up stunning fist and it takes a while to get it back. So point taken.
First, Paladin 2 for Divine Grace and Lay on Hands is a solid boost defensively. Even a 14 Cha adds another +2 to your saves, and also grants more Lay on Hands uses (which do get better after Champion level 2).
Second, your biggest damage boost will be smites and the higher your Charisma, the better your chances of hitting. And since you're going to be smiting many things with the Ring of Ki Mastery, you'll want to make the most of each one.
This character isn't dumping Cha at all. It's 16, which is really quite decent for this kind of build. And of course it will be raised along with wisdom with enhancements and the like. I see it ending up at around 22.
I suggest going Dex, Wis, and Cha focused. This is a build I want to use for PFS.
** spoiler omitted **
My thoughts on this anyway.
EDIT: and BBT ninja'd some stuff, but just means my thoughts are valid :)
So two things I'd like to ask. If you could have your to hit based on wisdom, such that you'd only have to raise cha and wis, why wouldn't you do so and skip dex? (Nice for reflex saves and init, but no need to invest heavily in it) Its less MAD for one.
Two, is a 12 in int really a req for this kinda build?
I might be a bad person for suggesting this, but after reading champion of Iori for the first time, I really have to say something jumped to mind.
The monastic legacy feat specifically adds half of your non monk levels to your monk level for the purpose of unarmed damage. Champion of Iori levels, while they add to unarmed damage, are not monk levels. So... a 12th level champion of Iori who went Monk 4/Paladin 1/CoI 7 has unarmed strike class feature level of 11 normally. With that feat you add +4 effective levels (from the eight levels of not monk), and throw on a monk's belt... voila! 20th level unarmed damage at 12th level, and it only cost you a single feat. You could get close enough eventually without it, and it's not really doing a whole lot, but the feat gets you there sooner, which is nice, since I've never actually played in a game that went past 12-13th level.
Yeah, I saw that too when it came out. Problem is not everyone agrees with that interpretation. I don't see JJ springing for it either.
Remember that CoI is only 10 levels. Once you get to Monk 4+CoI 10, you have to lose BAB to progress unarmed damage, which is a bad deal.
True enough. For PFS it's a lot more cut and dried, but the proper balance of monk levels is probably important for a 20th level build.
You can go Inquisitor, and use wisdom for initiative, and with the available Inquisitions and Archetypes, use your wisdom for many things.
You can easily get x2 wisdom to Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Stealth.
Are there any available for inquisitors that grant you the channel energy class feature? I'm not sure whether inquisitors are a better fit for a one level dip than clerics are (though to be sure, I haven't tinkered with inquisitors much).
prototype00
Are there any available for inquisitors that grant you the channel energy class feature? I'm not sure whether inquisitors are a better fit for a one level dip than clerics are (though to be sure, I haven't tinkered with inquisitors much).
Can always go with oracle of life. gets 1/day channel
Also going dual cursed gets you the solid gold misfortune revalation.
well i assume the reason for wanting channel is for the Guided hand feat.
So qualifying fot the feat as well as forcing every thing you fight to reroll 1/day is pretty good. (also give all allies 1/day reroll is great)
Inquisitors can get a weaker domain granted channel, or take the Adept Channel feat if they have a domain granted familiar.
Its a good idea but problematic for two (I think) reasons:
1. I don't think Irori actually has any domains that grant you a weaker domain channel.
2. The champion of Irori isn't allowd to have any hangers on so that nixes the familiar idea.
prototype00
I think you are providing yourself with restrictions that don't exist.
Irori has a more free form religion.
The Animal/Terrain domains can be applied with appropriate flavoring.
Expand your mind, imagination, and options.
As much as I setting my mind free, I also would like to provide an iron-cast build that no DM can argue with by RAW.
Besides, really I don't think you can take a domain if your deity doesn't offer it, (I think the seperatist can but they have their own set of issues), and thus besides Law, strength, Rune, healing and knowledge, Cleric of Irori are plumb out of luck.
prototype00
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You have DM who argue flavor? Even if you provide imaginative details?
That's rough.
Currently no, but in the past yes. Mostly because they perceive (perhaps rightly) my imaginative details as an attempt to accrue even more power for my PC.
So these days, I stick to making builds that strictly follow the RAW, and Irori is sadly restricted (though not really, 5 domains is quite a choice) in his domains.
prototype00
Keep in mind that getting Wis-based attacks doesn't apply to damage, so you'd lose out on that if you lower Strength too much.
Another approach that I quite like: dumping Strength and Dexterity, take one level of Oracle of Lore (with the side step secret) to use Charisma instead of Dexterity for AC. Then levels of monk and paladin as normal. This grants ridiculous saves from paladin's divine grace along with strong social skills that are traditionally a weak point of monks. Since you now give up Strength and Dexterity - it means that age categories tend to benefit you more, so if your GM allows you to be middle-aged or older, you can stack the stats in your favor.
All that said, "building" your own flurry with Two-Weapon Fighting has lots of advantages. You don't reaally need more than the basic TWF feat. The Improved TWF and Greater TWF are mostly overkill as you don't really care that much about -5 and -10 attacks. That means as a Sensei it costs you 1 feat (TWF) to have a basic flurry and Wisdom-attacks. As opposed to 4 levels paladin/1level cleric and 2 feats (Channel Smite and Guided Hand).
It's a matter of trade-offs.
Keep in mind that getting Wis-based attacks doesn't apply to damage, so you'd lose out on that if you lower Strength too much.
True, it's an enduring bugbear of the wisdom based builds. This character will have to depend on enhancement bonuses and smite for damage.
Another approach that I quite like: dumping Strength and Dexterity, take one level of Oracle of Lore (with the side step secret) to use Charisma instead of Dexterity for AC. Then levels of monk and paladin as normal. This grants ridiculous saves from paladin's divine grace along with strong social skills that are traditionally a weak point of monks. Since you now give up Strength and Dexterity - it means that age categories tend to benefit you more, so if your GM allows you to be middle-aged or older, you can stack the stats in your favor.
This is in part why I would like to take osyluth guile for this character, with that you get to add both your dex and cha to your ac (albeit it at a penalty to your to hit which isn't great).
Oracle is an interesting angle, but they don't get channel energy and I am loath to give up the enlarge persons from the strength domain.
All that said, "building" your own flurry with Two-Weapon Fighting has lots of advantages. You don't reaally need more than the basic TWF feat. The Improved TWF and Greater TWF are mostly overkill as you don't really care that much about -5 and -10 attacks. That means as a Sensei it costs you 1 feat (TWF) to have a basic flurry and Wisdom-attacks. As opposed to 4 levels paladin/1level cleric and 2 feats (Channel Smite and Guided Hand).
It's a matter of trade-offs.
True, something to think about. Though the 15 dex for TWF gives a bit less leeway in terms of stats.
Hmm, 1 level of cleric and 4 levels of paladin will give you two separate pools of channel positive energy (since they don't stack per the faq) each consisting of 3+cha uses of channel energy, which can be translated into ki points using the bronze gong.
6+2xCha extra ki points per day on top of the monk progression and the frankly rediculous wisdom equals a lot of smites per day. (Also might have some leftover for bewildering koan, which is nice).
prototype00
The paladin does not get 3+cha uses of channel energy. He just gets to spend 2 lay on hands to get a use.
Enlarge person is not something I'd go out of my way for. Its a 50gp potion, and there are other ways to get enlarge person via items.
Alternatively, if you going 4 levels of paladin anyway, you can take Unsanctioned Knowledge and get enlarge person on your spell list (which you can extend to multiple castings via cheap pearls of power 1.
Another alternative, is to be the Sacred Servant (paladin) archetype from the APG, which grants you domain spells too. You don't really care about what you're giving up, as it is overcome by the prestige class.
Another alternative, is to be the Sacred Servant (paladin) archetype from the APG, which grants you domain spells too. You don't really care about what you're giving up, as it is overcome by the prestige class.
Indeed. From what I've seen, the Sacred Servant archetype doesn't lose much, but gives you a good ability in exchange for what it does take.
The paladin does not get 3+cha uses of channel energy. He just gets to spend 2 lay on hands to get a use.
Ah, my mistake.
Enlarge person is not something I'd go out of my way for. Its a 50gp potion, and there are other ways to get enlarge person via items.
Alternatively, if you going 4 levels of paladin anyway, you can take Unsanctioned Knowledge and get enlarge person on your spell list (which you can extend to multiple castings via cheap pearls of power 1.
Basically I wanted to combine the following:
1.) Channel for extra ki points and guided hand
2.) Enlarge person castable from level 1 three times/day
3.) Early access to the previous two (Instead of waiting until paladin level 4)
So while I do give up one bab, I don't think 4 levels of paladin will offer all of the above, personally.
From what I've seen, the Sacred Servant archetype doesn't lose much, but gives you a good ability in exchange for what it does take.
Without the extra uses of channel energy (as provided with the cleric) there is no real reason to delay levels in CoI to pursue extra levels in paladin past level 2 (for divine grace). I mean I might come back to paladin later after I'm done with CoI, but its not a given.
prototype00
Consider that enlarge person is neat for reach, but not so much otherwise, as bonus strength will add +1 to damage; but you take -1 to attack and -2 to AC (-1 to attack from being large, not compensated by higher Strength as you use Wisdom for attacks; -2 to AC from large and loss to Dexterity). It's really a pretty horrible trade-off.
Given that it is a horrible trade-off, having 2 potions of enlarge on you for those rare special occasions when you actually want it would be adequate and the cost is irrelevant after level 4.
Consider that enlarge person is neat for reach, but not so much otherwise, as bonus strength will add +1 to damage; but you take -1 to attack and -2 to AC (-1 to attack from being large, not compensated by higher Strength as you use Wisdom for attacks; -2 to AC from large and loss to Dexterity). It's really a pretty horrible trade-off.
Given that it is a horrible trade-off, having 2 potions of enlarge on you for those rare special occasions when you actually want it would be adequate and the cost is irrelevant after level 4.
And channel energy to qualify for guided hand that also contributes to ki points via the bronze gong?
I'm not saying enlarge person is the only benefit, you have to look at the one level of cleric as the sum of its various benefits.
Also for the first couple of levels (1 and 2) that you don't have guided hand for yet, the boost to strength will help this character's to hit, so that isn't minor.
Also 4d8 damage with unarmed strikes, people seem to keep forgetting that.
Enlarge person is not a panacea, but its nice to pull at low levels and at high levels when the increase to unarmed damage makes it worth it.
prototype00
Certainly, it is a matter of trade-offs. But I wouldn't lose a level over this (i.e. taking a cleric level) which delays everything else by a level. Then again, I would also take Sensei over Guided Hand, so the channeling issue would be redundant.
At high levels I can spill some money for a potion or a wand.
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Somethings to consider when fleshing out your build;
There are some pretty good traits you can take. Wisdom in the Flesh is pretty cool - especially for a WIS based character. No Rogue in the party? Select this trait and choose Disable Device.
Honoured Fist of the Society is a great trait for Monks as it boosts your Ki Pool.
So a couple of relevant things from the ask James Jacob thread:
1.) You get one ki pool from being monk lvl 4 and one ki pool from CoI, which means double wisdom on ki points, apparently. Thats a not inconsiderable number of extra ki points.
2.) You don't actually have to attack with an allying weapon to benefit from it, (as Grick was arguing, as I recall), you just have to be holding it in such a way that you could attack with it. Useful.
prototype00
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So a couple of relevant things from the ask James Jacob thread:
1.) You get one ki pool from being monk lvl 4 and one ki pool from CoI, which means double wisdom on ki points, apparently. Thats a not inconsiderable number of extra ki points.
I recall), you just have to be holding it in such a way that you could attack with it. Useful.prototype00
Been enjoying this thread, since I am considering building a Champion myself for PFS.
I've been wrestling with Monk4/Paladin1 vs. Monk3/Paladin2. It seemed ki pool and unarmed advancement vs. divine grace and LoH. This makes me think 4/1 is the way to go, or maybe even going 4/2, and waiting an extra lvl of the PrC.
My only question is that the Champion of I text reads, "At 2nd level, a champion of Irori gains a ki pool equal to 1/2 his class level + his Wisdom modifier; this functions like the monk ability of the same name, and levels in this class stack with levels in other classes that grant a ki pool." So they both stack and yet you have two pools? That doesn't make sense to me.
It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either Bristor, but James said that the Ninja (which uses that method of determining ki points) is different from all others (where there are multiple ki point pools) I half expect him to change his mind though.
So whats your to hit stat going to be? Wis? Dex? Str?
prototype00
Just noticed something, there is a racial archetype for aasimars called immortal spark that allows you to cast lesser age resistance once per day (in place of daylight).
Which means that you can start play at middle age for basically no penalty. If you're using point buy, you basically get a whole lot more to put in your ability score (especially if you're going high for cha and wis, that extra +1 is each is worth quite a bit).
prototype00
Ah, right. Well, I guess for PFS this character can't benefit from that, but it is a legit choice for home games.
prototype00
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16
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I say stick with base Paladin/Monk. Most Monk archetypes replace Still Mind which is required for Champion of Irori. And I wouldn't dump Cha for a couple of reasons.There are a couple of decent monk archetypes that don't dump still mind. But even for the good ones, you give up stunning fist and it takes a while to get it back. So point taken.
First, Paladin 2 for Divine Grace and Lay on Hands is a solid boost defensively. Even a 14 Cha adds another +2 to your saves, and also grants more Lay on Hands uses (which do get better after Champion level 2).
Second, your biggest damage boost will be smites and the higher your Charisma, the better your chances of hitting. And since you're going to be smiting many things with the Ring of Ki Mastery, you'll want to make the most of each one.
This character isn't dumping Cha at all. It's 16, which is really quite decent for this kind of build. And of course it will be raised along with wisdom with enhancements and the like. I see it ending up at around 22.
I suggest going Dex, Wis, and Cha focused. This is a build I want to use for PFS.
** spoiler omitted **
My thoughts on this anyway.
EDIT: and BBT ninja'd some stuff, but just means my thoughts are valid :)
So two things I'd like to ask. If you could have your to hit based on wisdom, such that you'd only have to raise cha and wis, why wouldn't you do so and skip dex? (Nice for reflex saves and init, but no need to invest heavily in it) Its less MAD for one.
Two, is a 12 in int really a req for this kinda build?
Sorry, I for some reason saw your Cha as 12. 16 is good, but I'd go a touch lower at first just to buy points that could be used elsewhere. As far as keeping points in Dex, your Reflex save, while good, will still be your lowest save. Also you'll need it for AC and the Init that you mentioned.
As far as Int goes, you need to push a lot of skill points into Kn: Rel and either another Kn or Linguistics to become a Champion. For your Paladin levels, that's all of your skill points! The 12 Int gives a skill point to put into something else useful, like Acrobatics, Perception, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, etc. Also, many of your class skills are Int based and makes better use of the Skill Mastery ability you get later.
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So whats your to hit stat going to be? Wis? Dex? Str?
prototype00
I don't know, probably dex, but I hope you report back about how your plan goes!
Also, given what JJ said, doesn't that mean it would be best to take 4 lvls in monk in order get both ki pools? Maybe it's even worth it to go Monk 4/Pally2? What do people think?
I don't know, probably dex, but I hope you report back about how your plan goes!
So whats your to hit stat going to be? Wis? Dex? Str?
prototype00
Unfortunately I'm not in any games at the moment. I just enjoy making optimized characters for when I am in a game.
Also, given what JJ said, doesn't that mean it would be best to take 4 lvls in monk in order get both ki pools? Maybe it's even worth it to go Monk 4/Pally2? What do people think?
Certainly, its only one level on from Monk 3 that is required to get into the PrC. Personally, since I'm using the level of cleric and thus have 6 extra ki points the moment I can channel ki (bronze gong), I'd rather hold off on the monk level and get into CoI as soon as I can.
So something like:
Cleric 1
Cleric 1 / Paladin 1 (Take a level of Paladin)
Cleric 1 / Paladin 1/ Monk 3 (Take 3 levels of Monk for still mind)
Cleric 1 / Paladin 1/ Monk 3/ Coi2 (Take two levels of CoI for ki pool)
Cleric 1 / Paladin 1/ Monk 4/ Coi2 (Take a level of Monk for ki pool)
Cleric 1 / Paladin 2/ Monk 4/ Coi2 (Take a level of Paladin for divine grace)
prototype00
Another option for the cleric is of course to take the crusader archetype for the free weapon focus (unarmed), you don't get as many spells but pearls of power are cheap.
prototype00
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Another option for the cleric is of course to take the crusader archetype for the free weapon focus (unarmed), you don't get as many spells but pearls of power are cheap.
prototype00
Which apparently doesn't work as Cleric 1 does not have the BAB for Weapon Focus. BAB, according to the Author of that Arcetype, is neither a class or level based pre-requisite and thus the Crusader still has to have BAB +1 before taking Weapon Focus.
Which seems completely incongruent to the purpose of the Arcetype as far as I'm concerned.
At any rate take a level of Paladin first and you're golden.