I would drop dodge and pick weapon focus on whatever weapon you're planning to use.
It's ridiculous (the prerequisite), and should be changed, but rogues don't qualify for weapon finesse at first level due to the base attack bonus +1 requirement.
Argh what a miss. It's been ages since I statted a rogue.
It's ridiculous (the prerequisite), and should be changed, but rogues don't qualify for weapon finesse at first level due to the base attack bonus +1 requirement.
No prerequisite for weapon finesse at all in Pathfinder...just one of the improvements over 3.5
It's ridiculous (the prerequisite), and should be changed, but rogues don't qualify for weapon finesse at first level due to the base attack bonus +1 requirement.No prerequisite for weapon finesse at all in Pathfinder...just one of the improvements over 3.5
Huh. Your right, but was this always the case? I don't have my CRB on hand to check, but I remember looking this up and seeing the same prerequisite.
What feats do you think this character might want to pursue in the future? I don't know that I would take Dodge unless I planned to follow it up with Mobility and Spring Attack.
If you think he might like to do Two-Weapon Fighting with the character, I would take that feat. Otherwise, you could take Toughness, or see about increasing his INT and picking up Combat Expertise - with the intent to then move into Improved Feint and Greater Feint.
You also have the option of taking one of the saving throw feats. Rogues tend to have low will saves, and so Iron Will would be a great boon, especially at low levels when the +2 is likely to make a more significant difference.
You can pick up Weapon Finesse as a rogue talent at second level, so I wouldn't spend a feat on it. I would suggest Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Initiative as good starting feats.
Reactionary is a good rogue trait (+2 initiative bonus.
I've been corrected about weapon finesse, but now that I know, I'm going to have to defend taking it at 1st. Rogue talents in general are worth more than a feat, especially the feats available to a first level rogue.
In my opinion, trap spotter and minor magic (good on it's own, but qualifies you for Major magic too) are far superior choices.
Huh. Your right, but was this always the case? I don't have my CRB on hand to check, but I remember looking this up and seeing the same prerequisite.It's ridiculous (the prerequisite), and should be changed, but rogues don't qualify for weapon finesse at first level due to the base attack bonus +1 requirement.No prerequisite for weapon finesse at all in Pathfinder...just one of the improvements over 3.5
Don't have my books here, but just checked my beta playtest files on my computer, and even they didn't have the +1 BAB prerequisite.
I would use a half-elf and take Ancestral Arms (scimitar)
Change your stats to
Strength 10
Dexterity 18 (16 base +2 race)
Constitution 11
Intelligence 14
Wisdom 12
Charisma 12
at lvl 4 add the +1 stat to con
Add Perform (dance)
lvl 1 pick up weapon finess
lvl 2 use rogue trick for combat trick and pick Dervish Dance
lvl 3 you can gain another feat or pick up Extra Rogue Talent for the rogue talent you used at lvl 2.
At first level he will be using his dex mod to hit instead of str.
from second level on he will be using his dex to hit and damage.
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I would use a half-elf and take Ancestral Arms (scimitar)
Change your stats to
Strength 10
Dexterity 18 (16 base +2 race)
Constitution 11
Intelligence 14
Wisdom 12
Charisma 12at lvl 4 add the +1 stat to con
Add Perform (dance)
lvl 1 pick up weapon finess
lvl 2 use rogue trick for combat trick and pick Dervish Dance
lvl 3 you can gain another feat or pick up Extra Rogue Talent for the rogue talent you used at lvl 2.At first level he will be using his dex mod to hit instead of str.
from second level on he will be using his dex to hit and damage.
You can do the same without making yourself a half-elf by using the swashbuckler archetype. Of course, losing Trapfinding may be intolerable if the base concept is 'thief'.
...Any chance you want to try an archaeologist instead? :D
I used the half elf because he wanted to be a thief. this will keep the class simple and easy to play well maintaining the ability to do the job.
The archaeologest is a fantastic class but he wants to keep it simple for his friend who will be playing the class the archaeologist can get complicated with spells and luck bonus and you need a few feats to make the class work right.
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That's a fair point.
I used to not like the rogue, believing it was a redundant class, what with all of the other ways to do the rogue's job better. However, I've discovered that it's one of the best starter classes around. There are a lot of skills for the player to experiment with, and sneak attack gets them thinking tactically.
Rogues for new players is a good bet.
Don't have my books here, but just checked my beta playtest files on my computer, and even they didn't have the +1 BAB prerequisite.Huh. Your right, but was this always the case? I don't have my CRB on hand to check, but I remember looking this up and seeing the same prerequisite.It's ridiculous (the prerequisite), and should be changed, but rogues don't qualify for weapon finesse at first level due to the base attack bonus +1 requirement.No prerequisite for weapon finesse at all in Pathfinder...just one of the improvements over 3.5
Strange. I guess I just had a mental glitch then.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-catfolk/cat-bu rglar-rogue-catfolk
Not the Archetype itself, but the suggested Rogue Talents and Advanced Talents: fast stealth, quick disable, convincing fakes, dodge trap, fast picks, terrain mastery, another day, fast tumble, and hide in plain sight.
Skill Focus (Slight of Hand) or (Disable Device) would also be nice, for either pick-pocketing or breaking into a locked container. I suppose the Improved Steal and Greater Steal feats would be possible choices as well.
the thief needs to disable traps as well the lore warden can not fill that role.
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If this guy is new to PF from original D&D, don't start him off with an archetype-- let him get used to the concept first.
I'd say Dodge is a fine feat, as rogues get a lot of use out of Mobility. I'd say you're good as is, but be sure to point your friend towards the Steal combat maneuver, and suggest Agile Maneuvers if he likes the idea.
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Really, where does this "OH Lordy! The Traps, the Traps, the TRAPS!" thing come from?
It's like a boogeyman that never shows up.
As much as I agree with you, the OP said his friend specifically asked for "a thief". I take that to mean that he wants a character that feels like the rogues of earlier editions, and that means disabling traps and fistfuls of sneak attack D6's.
I'd say the OP's friend should buy a bear trap (APG? AA?) and then if he doesn't find any traps to disable he can set his own.
I think everything you put there is fine.
I'd like to throw in the Archaeologist archetype for the Bard, just for consideration. Its a real gem of a character and an ideal rogue if you're more concerned about being a thief than being a backstabber.
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Common misconception is that the Rogue is the only class that can fit this role.
This is wrong.
Not only can others do it, but many do it better.
You are not defined by the name of your class.
I especially like to bring this up in those cases where multi-classing takes place. Yes, there are classes that seem to have a particular motif or flavor tied to the class and mechanics, but that's not to say that particular individuals that are a native of Andoran or Katapesh, for example, can't adopt self-training or disciplines that are similar or normally indicative of another culture, namely a ninja or samurai.
If the fellow doesn't want to be overwhelmed on his first go in PF, by all means, give him the core rogue. However, he should be nudged towards the other materials and options for the sake of creative freedom. The more involved he becomes in character creation, the more likely he'll stick around.
sry. Early morning pre-coffee rant. Hate seeing someone say: "I wanna play class 'X'" and seeing a million "why don't you play class 'Z' with two dips in class 'M', one dip in class 'S' (using archetype 'D', of course) and drizzle chocolate on the whole thing.
I guess it just seems like a ton of effort when it is just easier to take three levels of "X" give some advice on feats, skills and traits and be done with it.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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If you really want that 1e/2e thief "feel" you might switch around some skill points to give the character Linguistics and Use Magic Device. Those skills are based off of the old thief class abilities Read Languages and Scroll Use. I'd trade out Sense Motive for UMD personally.
Sarcasm: clearly the best feat is Skill Focus: Climb, in order to replicate 1e theives being super good at climbing and nothing else./sarcasm.
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sry. Early morning pre-coffee rant. Hate seeing someone say: "I wanna play class 'X'" and seeing a million "why don't you play class 'Z' with two dips in class 'M', one dip in class 'S' (using archetype 'D', of course) and drizzle chocolate on the whole thing.
I guess it just seems like a ton of effort when it is just easier to take three levels of "X" give some advice on feats, skills and traits and be done with it.
Except that's not what anyone was saying. It's a sad fact that the rogue is a subpar class, and that the archaeologist takes all the best aspects of it while also bringing bard spells and a better Disable Device and Perception score.
The bard is a better thief.
sry. Early morning pre-coffee rant. Hate seeing someone say: "I wanna play class 'X'" and seeing a million "why don't you play class 'Z' with two dips in class 'M', one dip in class 'S' (using archetype 'D', of course) and drizzle chocolate on the whole thing.
I guess it just seems like a ton of effort when it is just easier to take three levels of "X" give some advice on feats, skills and traits and be done with it.
The main reason is that we want to break people out of the mindset that you can't play a certain type of character without a certain word on your character sheet. You can play an up-front type without "fighter" on your sheet, and you can play a thief without "rogue" in just the same way.
Encouraging outside-the-box thinking is a good thing.
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The bard is a better thief.
I see lots of people argue this point, but bards don't get sneak damage, which a player of an older versions of D&D (and a lot of us that play Pathfinder) consider a core "thief" function.
Ninja, on the other hand, is almost always a better rogue than the Rogue - but I would stick with the base rogue for your this Pathfinder newbie's first character.
To the OP: I would suggest finding a way to get your friend's CON to 14, especially if you are aren't going to invest in Toughness (especially early on). I've played in a lot of PFS games where the unpredictable nature of the tables will leave one or two melee people and the rest ranged classes or casters. Being able to survive a situation where your rogue might have to fill in for a "front line" character, hit points are priceless.
Having said that, I'd suggest both 14 CON AND Toughness for a melee rogue.
;)
Note: adding a CON of 14 and taking toughness at level 1 gives you 14 hit points, instead of 10. That's a 40% increase at first level - and enough hit points to survive a (small?) critical hit, if he get's unlucky.
Suggested stat block:
STR:12 DEX:18 CON:14 INT:13 WIS:10 CHA:10
Note: A 12 STR (versus say a "10") isn't going to make much of a difference for a finesse rogue. The 2 points that you put into STR could be put into INT, WIS or CHA instead - however your friend wants to customize his tertiary stats.