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There are no dragons on the Summon Monster lists. Is this an intentional omission based on balance, or is it more a matter of flavor?
If the latter, what CR of dragon would folks say is appropriate for Summon Monster VII, VIII, and IX?
What about Gate? >.>
Most summon monsters are in a certain CR range. I would look at the other monsters. One issue however is that monsters are basically put together by the uses(typically the GM), and having summon allow you to custom make monsters would make it too good. You could say that if the book only has a CR 7 red dragon that is all you can choose, but I then you have to ask why you can't summon an equal dragon of a different color. As an example you can summon all of the large elementals with one spell of a certain level. I don't think it was an oversight to not include dragons. I can just see the questions being asked if it was allowed.
Gate has its own rules since it is not a summon spell. I would just modify it to say you can call dragons also. Now that I think about it, IIRC, Gate can call the extraplanar dragons.
A lot of it is because they need to be extraplanar. Summon spells pull creatures from other planes.
The shadow caller summoner archetype for fetchlings can summon a young umbral dragon with SM VIII.
It seems strange to me that even at level 20 of Dragon Shaman you STILL cannot summon dragons. I think it's reasonable to suggest that a Draconic bloodline sorcerer or a Dragon Shaman should eventually be able to summon dragons.
However, since the dragons are intelligent you would NOT be able to control them at all once summoned (have the GM control them instead.) If you summon a black dragon, expect that the next thing you see is your own eyes melting from a face full of acid. In fact, it would be reasonable to say that even with the summon spell, you would still have to convince the dragon to be summoned (which could involve a diplomacy check, or if you're feeling really bold, a bluff check.) This would take ~1 minute instead of a round, and if you fail the spell slot is lost.
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Outsiders are intelligent and you can control them. If a summon spell allowed the creature to attack me I would never summon a dragon. It is better to use planar ally or planar binding and use an outsider.
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There are no dragons on the Summon Monster lists. Is this an intentional omission based on balance, or is it more a matter of flavor?
If the latter, what CR of dragon would folks say is appropriate for Summon Monster VII, VIII, and IX?
What about Gate? >.>
We have actually put together 23 separate theme-based Monster Summoning lists (players have to choose which they will use at the time of character creation. Dragons are one of them:
MS I:
Kobold
MS II:
Pseudodragon
MS III:
Faerie Dragon
Tatzlwyrm
MS IV:
Fire Drake
Forest Drake
Ice Drake
River Drake
MS V:
Wyvren
MS VI:
CR 7-8 Chromatic or Metallic Dragon
(depending on caster alignment)
MS VII:
Dragonkin
MS VIII:
CR 11-12 Chromatic or Metallic Dragon
(depending on caster alignment)
MS IX:
CR 13-14 Chromatic or Metallic Dragon
(depending on caster alignment)
We have also placed Gate on the Summoner spell list and removed it as a class ability, replacing it instead with 'Perfect Summoning: Creatures you summon appear with maximum hit points'.
Part of the problem with that is that not all dragons are made equal. A CR 8 white dragon isn't even possible, because a juvenile is 7 and a young adult is 9. A juvenile black dragon is CR 8, but there is no entry for such a dragon in the Bestiary, meaning the GM must write a stat block or use another source. A CR 8 red dragon is just a very young red dragon. Once again, not a stat block in the Bestiary.
Dragons are more nuanced than any other creature in the bestiaries. They do not make good summoning fodder because of that.
Part of the problem with that is that not all dragons are made equal. A CR 8 white dragon isn't even possible, because a juvenile is 7 and a young adult is 9. A juvenile black dragon is CR 8, but there is no entry for such a dragon in the Bestiary, meaning the GM must write a stat block or use another source. A CR 8 red dragon is just a very young red dragon. Once again, not a stat block in the Bestiary.
Dragons are more nuanced than any other creature in the bestiaries. They do not make good summoning fodder because of that.
There's a pretty good bit here to work with:
And this doesn't even include the Imperial Dragons or the Primal Dragons...
The way we play it - and this is just us - is that the Summoner has 1 specific dragon available to be summoned, one that advances as appropriate with his power level... should it die, he will then summon another.
Thanks for all the responses so far. The reason I asked the question was that I've an opportunity to possibly pick up these spells eventually with my magus, but he's not really a summoner in theme or practice, concentrating more on swordplay and evocation.
However, I also plan on having him develop a strong dragon theme, so being able to call forth a dragon would definitely be in fitting with his character.
Based on the things I've read here, I think I'm going to talk with my DM about creating a variant spell that only calls dragons, and dragons from a specific organization at that (the Chamber, for those familiar with Eberron) at that. I think it should be very flavorful and balanced at the same time.
An added bonus is that dragons in Eberron aren't necessarily bound by traditional alignments, so it's entirely possible he could call chromatic dragons that match his alignment.
Dragonstorm!
School Summoning (conjuration); Level Sorcerer/Wizard 9
This functions as a summon monster spell, except that it summons one dragon from the following list. At the beginning of each of your turns after the first dragon arrives, another of the same type is summoned until the end of the spell's duration or it has summoned 1 dragon per 3 caster levels, whichever comes first:
Juvenile Black Dragon
Young Green Dragon
Very Young Red Dragon
Juvenile Brass Dragon
Young Copper dragon
Very Young Silver Dragon
:P