300 years of exploitation, repression with millions dead eh? Can you tell me how the west is directly responsible? If you go back to 1712 A.D. the region was under the thumb of the Ottoman Turks not the West. It was not until the 19th century that Europe got involved in the region.
To put it broadly various rulers wanted to modernized and adopt western aspects. They were happy to get rid of the Turks by welcoming European money & guns to do it.
I only have a university education on the topic so how did you come to your conclusions? What are your sources?You have a degree in European and/or Middle-Eastern history, with an emphasis upon the 20th century?
Forgive my scepticism but you don't post with obvious scholarship so I am a little surprised. Please, do fill us all in?
Cheers to the mild suprise.
I'll say aside from my major I minored in History just b/c I enjoyed it so much.Sometimes you have to say it how it is. That could be a little uncomfortable for some to hear and comprehend.
300 years of exploitation, repression with millions dead eh? Can you tell me how the west is directly responsible? If you go back to 1712 A.D. the region was under the thumb of the Ottoman Turks not the West. It was not until the 19th century that Europe got involved in the region.
To put it broadly various rulers wanted to modernized and adopt western aspects. They were happy to get rid of the Turks by welcoming European money & guns to do it.
I only have a university education on the topic so how did you come to your conclusions? What are your sources?You have a degree in European and/or Middle-Eastern history, with an emphasis upon the 20th century?
Forgive my scepticism but you don't post with obvious scholarship so I am a little surprised. Please, do fill us all in?
Cheers to the mild suprise.
I'll say aside from my major I minored in History just b/c I enjoyed it so much.
Sometimes you have to say it how it is. That could be a little uncomfortable for some to hear and comprehend.
So...we all have a right to your opinion?
I majored in The Classics an Ancient History and Minored in Paleoanthropology and Archaeology (with credits in going to parties and getting drunk alot), I work in IT for a big bad Bank.
What learned from my education is that there is no "how it is" history is always POV. If you accept anything you read at face value then you fail history.
Same with the articles you post, they are biased and not accurate. Go with Cicero when you are debating he says attack your own argument find the holes before you even engage your opposition.
All you are doing is posting articles from sources with 0 credibility and expecting us to agree. No history student should, the first thing you are taught is to question the source, and that the Primary source is more valuable than the secondary source.
I majored in The Classics an Ancient History and Minored in Paleoanthropology and Archaeology (with credits in going to parties and getting drunk alot), I work in IT for a big bad Bank.
What learned from my education is that there is no "how it is" history is always POV. If you accept anything you read at face value then you fail history.
Same with the articles you post, they are biased and not accurate. Go with Cicero when you are debating he says attack your own argument find the holes before you even engage your opposition.
All you are doing is posting articles from sources with 0 credibility and expecting us to agree. No history student should, the first thing you are taught is to question the source, and that the Primary source is more valuable than the secondary source.
I didn't expect anyone to agree, nor did I look to pick a fight.
I think the article has merit and credibility.It was short, to the point and gave an opinion.
Don't look for Herodotus when there is only graffiti on the wall-post.
I didn't expect anyone to agree, nor did I look to pick a fight.
I think the article has merit and credibility.
It was short, to the point and gave an opinion.
Don't look for Herodotus when there is only graffiti on the wall-post.
Part of having a discussion is a willingess to root your statements, or statements you propagate, in reality.
Part of having a discussion is a willingess to root your statements, or statements you propagate, in reality.I didn't expect anyone to agree, nor did I look to pick a fight.
I think the article has merit and credibility.
It was short, to the point and gave an opinion.
Don't look for Herodotus when there is only graffiti on the wall-post.
Responsibility is for other people, BNW. It says so on the, erm, on some thing that I totally did not just make up.
Any serious scholar of history is quite familiar with the works of people like Donna Harraway who explored how history has no one true answer.
Whatever happened to Citizen Fleshgrinder?
I go away and a possibly interesting conversation about the roots of European colonialism in the Middle East devolves into a "my-college-degree-is-bigger-than-yours?" argument?
How disappointing. In any case, I dropped out of college three times.
Also, link.
I go away and a possibly interesting conversation about the roots of European colonialism in the Middle East devolves into a "my-college-degree-is-bigger-than-yours?" argument?
How disappointing. In any case, I dropped out of college three times.
Also, link.
That's life sometimes. In fact, that's life most times.
Just because the dean had you catapulted off the campus and gravity subsequently took over does not mean you "dropped out"
And for the record my diploma is on leaves.
What kind of leaves?
What kind of leaves?
Not that kind unfortunately or it might be more useful...
I know downright ignorant PhDs, and brilliant high school dropouts. Degrees correlate far better with wealth than with intellect, in my experience.
In my field, there are people who have certifications but no degree. They know which button to push when, but they don't know why. An example of this would be a Microsoft Certified Professional Developer who has no clue how to optimize an algorithm ("big O notation, what's that?") They may know how to program a Firewall, but not how to do it most optimally. There are people who have degrees without certifications. They know why to do something, but not how. For example, they know how to optimize an algorithm, but don't know how to use Visual Studio.
Then there are people who have certifications and degrees.
Generally speaking, if, to do a job best, you need to know theory or math, then you need college education.
Very interesting, DD.
To load trucks, you need either a degree in geometry or vast experience playing Tetris.
My expressing disappointment in the thread devolving into degree envy wasn't an invitation to talk more about your degrees!
I was refreshing my history of the Ottoman Empire earlier today and I had forgotten all about the wonderful history of the foreign "capitulations" and the imperialist-run Ottoman Public Debt Administration. Fun stuff.
talk more about your degrees!
If you say so!
I have an AA in Recording and Music Technology. It has gotten me precisely zero jobs. I could have moved to Nashville and gotten an internship, and lived with my second cousin Karen who, at the time, was working as a producer and session musician. But...eff Nashville *shudder*
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A PRO US lynch mob takes out the HQ of the Islamist group that attacked our embassy
It really is more complicated than do they like us or do they hate us.
I therefore grant this piece of news the glorious "most useful answer to Aretas' rants" award (EDIT: oops, Savage's rant. A guy known even in Europe for its level-headedness and credibility).
How surprising. Some crazy militia attacked your embassy on 09/11, most probably using the piece of crap of a picture as a convenient excuse, and the general population of Benghazi (a crowd of thirty thousands of them, at least) told this Friday that they disagreed and would love a little peace and stability. Just like we would.
Maybe muslims and arabs aren't martians, after all ?
EDIT : in case you haven't heard, what calls itself the lybian governement initiated a crackdown on armed militias, asking that they put down their weapons. AND SOME OF THEM COMPLIED WITHOUT MAKIING A FUSS. Maybe Lybia is heading somewhere.
If the Libyan 'government' knows that it was foreigners who attacked the embassy on 9/11 them how come they don't know who or where they are located?
Arrests should have been made by now and some heads rattled.
Maybe it was the same freedom fighters who NATO backed to take over Khaddafi and we (the US) really wants to keep this quiet, especially since we are months away from an election. So much for that Arab spring.
I really don't know what Smarnil is implying, it was not Savage...who is the MAN btw nor was it me.
If the Libyan 'government' knows that it was foreigners who attacked the embassy on 9/11 them how come they don't know who or where they are located?
Arrests should have been made by now and some heads rattled.
Funny thing about trying to teach people the value of due process and rights: You can't just start rattling heads you need evidence.
Maybe it was the same freedom fighters who NATO backed to take over Khaddafi
I'm sure they were, along with 99 other, different groups who DON"T agree with what they did. There is no "the" freedom fighters that overthrew Khaddafi. It was a large number of disparate groups that hate and disagree with each other ALMOST as much as they hated and disagreed with Khaddafi.
and we (the US) really wants to keep this quiet, especially since we are months away from an election. So much for that Arab spring.
I really can't see a conspiracy here, or any mechanism to keep facts bad for the president quiet in an age where Fox news and company simply use whatever "Facts" bolster their narrative.
I really don't know what Smarnil is implying, it was not Savage...who is the MAN btw nor was it me.
He's saying that your point )whether yours or savages or whoever you're quoting) is completely undermined by reality. You're acting like the entire country hates the US when its only some of the country that hates the US. Taking the storming of the embassy to be representative of the country is just as bad as them taking your comments to be the official position of the US.
If the Libyan 'government' knows that it was foreigners who attacked the embassy on 9/11 them how come they don't know who or where they are located?
Arrests should have been made by now and some heads rattled.Maybe it was the same freedom fighters who NATO backed to take over Khaddafi and we (the US) really wants to keep this quiet, especially since we are months away from an election. So much for that Arab spring.
I really don't know what Smarnil is implying, it was not Savage...who is the MAN btw nor was it me.
You made up the "foreigners" part. Stop doing that.
On other points, nothing to add to thejeff and BNW's posts.
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talk more about your degrees!If you say so!
I have an AA in Recording and Music Technology. It has gotten me precisely zero jobs. I could have moved to Nashville and gotten an internship, and lived with my second cousin Karen who, at the time, was working as a producer and session musician. But...eff Nashville *shudder*
Nashville enjoys a very attractive population. I used to love delivering there back in the day. It doesn't hurt that I don't find country awful.
I can think of a bunch of places worse than Nashville to be.
After a Stooge in Black called me an a#@*@&*, I looked up some articles (I think of Russia Today and al-Jazeera) and they were saying that the Libyan government was, indeed, blaming the Stephens killing on a group of both foreign and domestic Islamic militants.
That may have changed in the past couple of days.
talk more about your degrees!If you say so!
I have an AA in Recording and Music Technology. It has gotten me precisely zero jobs. I could have moved to Nashville and gotten an internship, and lived with my second cousin Karen who, at the time, was working as a producer and session musician. But...eff Nashville *shudder*
Nashville enjoys a very attractive population. I used to love delivering there back in the day. It doesn't hurt that I don't find country awful.
I can think of a bunch of places worse than Nashville to be.
I like a lot of (mostly older) country, too, but if I was faced with the prospect of working for the streamlined pap that rolls out of Nashville these days, I'd consider going back to school as well.
Nothing against Nashville the city, and nothing against country the genre, but plenty against the last 30 years of country chart-toppers.
If the Libyan 'government' knows that it was foreigners who attacked the embassy on 9/11 them how come they don't know who or where they are located?I figured it out. You put scare quotes around government because you're referring to the Libyan government that exists only in your fevered imagination.
You figured it out? "My fevered mind?" You are so far off and clueless.
Foreigners
Neener-neener? Nice "analysis."
I'd put my kids in time-out...
If the Libyan 'government' knows that it was foreigners who attacked the embassy on 9/11 them how come they don't know who or where they are located?I figured it out. You put scare quotes around government because you're referring to the Libyan government that exists only in your fevered imagination.You figured it out? "My fevered mind?" You are so far off and clueless.
Foreigners
So? You are moving post goals all the time. [Edit : okay, goalposts.]
First, you said libyans (ALL libyans) hated the USA, quoting in extenso a Savage piece of work.
Second, everybody and their cousins told you that the guys who planned and led the attack on your embassy weren't representative of the whole libyan population, who is mostly composed of, you know, normal people like you and me.
Then, out of the blue, you add than the attack involved foreigners. I humbly pointed out than nobody on this thread said that before you, and that it doesn't matter.
Could you explain to us how the involvement of foreigners in this attack helps your OP argument, that is, that most of the libyans are odious and irredeemable djihadis rooting for Al Qaeda, and therefore not worthy of your help ? Is it too much to ask for some coherence in your rants ?
Aretas, like too many on these boards, is a Goalpost Atheist.
If the Libyan 'government' knows that it was foreigners who attacked the embassy on 9/11 them how come they don't know who or where they are located?I figured it out. You put scare quotes around government because you're referring to the Libyan government that exists only in your fevered imagination.You figured it out? "My fevered mind?" You are so far off and clueless.
ForeignersSo? You are moving post goals all the time. [Edit : okay, goalposts.]
First, you said libyans (ALL libyans) hated the USA, quoting in extenso a Savage piece of work.
Second, everybody and their cousins told you that the guys who planned and led the attack on your embassy weren't representative of the whole libyan population, who is mostly composed of, you know, normal people like you and me.
Then, out of the blue, you add than the attack involved foreigners. I humbly pointed out than nobody on this thread said that before you, and that it doesn't matter.
Could you explain to us how the involvement of foreigners in this attack helps your OP argument, that is, that most of the libyans are odious and irredeemable djihadis rooting for Al Qaeda, and therefore not worthy of your help ? Is it too much to ask for some coherence in your rants ?
I did not say OR post a quote stating that "ALL LIBYANS" hate the USA. The OP post did not say any of the terrible things you just wrote!
"that is, that most of the libyans are odious and irredeemable djihadis rooting for Al Qaeda, and therefore not worthy of your help ? Is it too much to ask for some coherence in your rants ?"
Just the ones that used the US & then sacked the embassy & killed our diplomat, an act of war. Lets not forget the Muslim brotherhood either.
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Emphasis mine. Here is your OP :
This came across my desk today, it seems pretty right on in my opinion. What do you all think?
"The fact is, there are millions if not hundreds of millions of people in the Arab world who share the vision of Osama Bin Laden.
No matter how many times you apologize to them, no matter how many idiotic diplomats you send over there who think they're so wonderful because they went to Berkeley, one thing is clear: They only understand power, and they see that you're weak."
A German daily paper writes today:
"Three years after Obama's speech in Cairo which was supposed to initiate a new beginning in the Middle East, the United States now has even less support in the region than before.
"Naked hatred is raging against the country that millions of people regard as a symbol of freedom.
"When U.S. flags burn, embassies are vandalized and diplomats are murdered, it is an attack on the West and not just America.
"We rooted for the demonstrators at Tahrir Square, and many of us have longed to see democracy in the Arab nations. But democracy includes honoring the lives of fellow humans."
But we know those people can't honor the lives of fellow humans, especially infidels.
They used Obama. They used Hillary. They used the ambassador to get where they are. NB: 'they' being the libyans, as he (Savage) is speaking about the embassy attack.
And then they killed him."
So, you agree with that piece of s*** stating that there is no way diplomacy could work with the barbarians living in arab countries, but at the same time do not. Make up your mind, please?
Emphasis mine. Here is your OP :
So, you agree with that piece of s*** stating that there is no way diplomacy could work with the barbarians living in arab countries, but at the same time do not. Make up your mind, please?This came across my desk today, it seems pretty right on in my opinion. What do you all think?
"The fact is, there are millions if not hundreds of millions of people in the Arab world who share the vision of Osama Bin Laden.
No matter how many times you apologize to them, no matter how many idiotic diplomats you send over there who think they're so wonderful because they went to Berkeley, one thing is clear: They only understand power, and they see that you're weak."
A German daily paper writes today:
"Three years after Obama's speech in Cairo which was supposed to initiate a new beginning in the Middle East, the United States now has even less support in the region than before.
"Naked hatred is raging against the country that millions of people regard as a symbol of freedom.
"When U.S. flags burn, embassies are vandalized and diplomats are murdered, it is an attack on the West and not just America.
"We rooted for the demonstrators at Tahrir Square, and many of us have longed to see democracy in the Arab nations. But democracy includes honoring the lives of fellow humans."
But we know those people can't honor the lives of fellow humans, especially infidels.
They used Obama. They used Hillary. They used the ambassador to get where they are. NB: 'they' being the libyans, as he (Savage) is speaking about the embassy attack.
And then they killed him."
First Savage is not a piece of s$~~. Perhaps we differ in opinion. A terrorist to me might be a freedom fighter to you?
Second. The newspaper article was thought provoking. I lean towards the opinion that Obama and the administration bent over backward to appease the Muslim world. What did that get the US? It got us the mess in Egypt, Libya, and elsewhere in the Arab & Muslim world. Where was Obama when the Iranians protested? Did he say the Mullahs had to go? NO he didn't.Third. How you characterize Arabs as barbarian? Thats your opinion man
The fact is Americans are not burning flags, ransacking Arab embassies or attacking people of Arab or Muslim background. I'm still on the side of diplomacy and mutual coexistence. It does not look like the Arab world and many of its leaders are playing this game fairly.
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Aretas,
No, America is just propping Up ruthless, oppressive dictators like the Saudis wile hypocritically condemning equally ruthless dictators like President Assad. You do remember that the US supported Khaddaffi for a bit in the 2000s, don't you? And spported Saddam before that to halt Iran, who we also created by supporting the ruthles dictatorship of the Shah. America has quite a history in the region of supporting bloody dictators and suppressing democracy. So when the dictator goes, the people Amica helped oppress are, for some reason, not terribly grateful for your support of the former ruthless dictator. Many in the Middle East may well hate America. The thing is, America has not been shy about giving them reasons to.
Regarding iran. he probably figured that America supporting the protestors would play into the regme's narrtive of the protestors being stooges for the Great Satan. But that sort of subtlety and nuance has no place in foreign plicy where shaking your big stick and shouting is far more effective, right?
The sword is an excellent method of civilization.
Also, comparing modern Christianities potential to go nuts and slaughter people to modern Islam's potential is a bit of a false equivalency.
Christianity is almost 2000 years old.
Islam is a hair over 500.
Muhammad founded Islam and he died around 632.
2012 - 632 = 1380 years.
That is a lot more than a hair, and if you meant 1500 it isn't quite there yet.
What was Christendom up to at the same age?Oh yeah, torturing and slaughtering anyone who didn't agree with them.
Wrong, at age 500 Christendom was desperately trying to civilize the waves of barbarians happily looting and burning Europe as the Western Roman Empire utterly collapsed.
At age 1500 your argument isn't totally bogus, considering it was the colonial period and the wars between Catholicism and Protestants were just beginning.
You did just call the diplomats "idiotic", so I'm having a hard time taking your claim seriously. Furthermore, one man's terrorist is always going to be another man's freedom fighter. It's why I detest th term- with various terror like acts, we would not be here now(in the us, at least)..
Emphasis mine. Here is your OP :
So, you agree with that piece of s*** stating that there is no way diplomacy could work with the barbarians living in arab countries, but at the same time do not. Make up your mind, please?This came across my desk today, it seems pretty right on in my opinion. What do you all think?
"The fact is, there are millions if not hundreds of millions of people in the Arab world who share the vision of Osama Bin Laden.
No matter how many times you apologize to them, no matter how many idiotic diplomats you send over there who think they're so wonderful because they went to Berkeley, one thing is clear: They only understand power, and they see that you're weak."
A German daily paper writes today:
"Three years after Obama's speech in Cairo which was supposed to initiate a new beginning in the Middle East, the United States now has even less support in the region than before.
"Naked hatred is raging against the country that millions of people regard as a symbol of freedom.
"When U.S. flags burn, embassies are vandalized and diplomats are murdered, it is an attack on the West and not just America.
"We rooted for the demonstrators at Tahrir Square, and many of us have longed to see democracy in the Arab nations. But democracy includes honoring the lives of fellow humans."
But we know those people can't honor the lives of fellow humans, especially infidels.
They used Obama. They used Hillary. They used the ambassador to get where they are. NB: 'they' being the libyans, as he (Savage) is speaking about the embassy attack.
And then they killed him."
First Savage is not a piece of s#!+. Perhaps we differ in opinion. A terrorist to me might be a freedom fighter to you?
Second. The newspaper article was thought provoking. I lean towards the opinion that Obama and the administration bent over backward to appease the Muslim world. What did that get the...
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Areatasses skill in backpedaling would get him a job in a circus.
You insulted a man who died in service to his country.
You regurgitate the vapid rantings of a right wing nut job.
You make generalizations that border on racist.
You can not see the mistakes of your own country the contributed to the radicalization of segments of the Islamic world.
You demonstrate your ignorance over and over.
I need to edit a mistake I made, because I detest giving out bad information.
In an earlier post, I indicated that Patrice Lumumba was overthrown and executed in 1953...this was an error in my memory. Lumumba was overthrown and executed in 1963...sorry about that.
(I have to say, though, I'm a little distressed. A factual error of that magnitude was allowed to stand for four pages of this thread...doesn't anyone here do any fact checking? You people should have called me out on that long before now. Are you even trying?)
I assumed it was a typo.
Aretas,
No, America is just propping Up ruthless, oppressive dictators like the Saudis wile hypocritically condemning equally ruthless dictators like President Assad. You do remember that the US supported Khaddaffi for a bit in the 2000s, don't you? And spported Saddam before that to halt Iran, who we also created by supporting the ruthles dictatorship of the Shah. America has quite a history in the region of supporting bloody dictators and suppressing democracy. So when the dictator goes, the people Amica helped oppress are, for some reason, not terribly grateful for your support of the former ruthless dictator. Many in the Middle East may well hate America. The thing is, America has not been shy about giving them reasons to.Regarding iran. he probably figured that America supporting the protestors would play into the regme's narrtive of the protestors being stooges for the Great Satan. But that sort of subtlety and nuance has no place in foreign plicy where shaking your big stick and shouting is far more effective, right?
Riiiight, so what your saying is diplomacy is useless b/c the arab/muslim world (or atleast in the nations we meddled in as you said) hate us?
I know history, I also know that people have to learn to get along and take responsibility for their actions. Blaming American is getting old. You fail to mention all the great things America & American's do in the arab/muslim world, but this sort of talk does not fit into your narrative.You would rather talk about how we supported Khaddafi or Hussein. How we instilled the Shah in Iran. Then we deposed him b/c he was so bad not thinking (Under Pres Carter) how this would effect the region. Guess what, the Persian people are now under the thumb of the Theocrats and I'm sure they are loving it.
Why don't you add to this hot mess how Israel sold weapons to Iran during the Iran/Iraq war? Little Satan selling weapons to Iran??!!
Its called realpolitic. But keep blaming America, it feels better.
The USA didn't depose the Shah, Citizen Aretas, he got overthrown by an alliance of lefties and Islamic fundamentalists. Criminally, the lefties supported the Ayatollah and then they all got killed.
Not terribly different from what's going on in Egypt, although, so far, less lefties have been killed.
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Aretas,
You know history but think the US deposed the Shah? I don't claim to know history at all and even I know that's b+~%*%$~. If you can't even get really basic facts like that right, why should anyone take you even slightly seriously?
Also, taking responsibility for their mistakes? Yeah, it would be nice if the West did that occasionally, rather than acting outraged that anyone should call them on their support for murderous dictators. That was a decision. It was, from a geopolitical point of view at the time, a very sensible decision. However, if you were the one living in fear of getting killed for nothing, well, hating the people propping up your particular brand of madman is hardly an unreasonable position. America, to use your own words, needs to accept the responsibility for its own actions.
Oh, and please don't put words in my mouth so you can strawman them to death. It's not a very good way of influencing people. They tend to notice. Diplomacy is going to be pretty tough owing to the justified hatred you've bult up against you. That's the consequence of your actions. Accept responsibility for it and stop blaming the people you helped oppress for decades for getting pissed at you now that they're free.
Oh, and could you perhaps mention all the great things America has done in the region? You can't just assert these marvellous and wonderful things without evidence. I, at least, gave you examples of the s~!*ty things the US has done. Your turn.
Areatasses skill in backpedaling would get him a job in a circus.
You insulted a man who died in service to his country.
You regurgitate the vapid rantings of a right wing nut job.
You make generalizations that border on racist.
You can not see the mistakes of your own country the contributed to the radicalization of segments of the Islamic world.
You demonstrate your ignorance over and over.
Your a hateful little wee Dwarf! I like the "asses" you added to my handle, very clever. If that was me you would be crying to the moderators.
If you got beef with me on a topic go for it, quit the insults.1. I did not say anything to insult Christopher Stevens. I am insulted that security was sh*t, his concerns for his safety were not taken seriously, and still nothing has been done to avenge his murder.
2. Michael Savage is not a right winger. Goes to show how much you know about him. He is and independent conservative. Stop regurgitating bullsh*t. To you anyone with a conservative opinion is a right wing nut job.
3. Racism again? You are demonstrating ignorance for failing to see that there is no racism here.
4. Radicalization? BIG topic. Im sure we radicalized many with US presence in Holy Saudi Arabia but we left and radicals found other excuses to hate the US. Anyway, BIG topic. Start a thread.
2. Michael Savage is not a right winger. Goes to show how much you know about him. He is and independent conservative. Stop regurgitating bullsh*t. To you anyone with a conservative opinion is a right wing nut job.
I'm pretty sure that an independent conservative is considered a right-winger, Citizen Aretas.
Aretas,
You know history but think the US deposed the Shah? I don't claim to know history at all and even I know that's b+#$!#+@. If you can't even get really basic facts like that right, why should anyone take you even slightly seriously?Also, taking responsibility for their mistakes? Yeah, it would be nice if the West did that occasionally, rather than acting outraged that anyone should call them on their support for murderous dictators. That was a decision. It was, from a geopolitical point of view at the time, a very sensible decision. However, if you were the one living in fear of getting killed for nothing, well, hating the people propping up your particular brand of madman is hardly an unreasonable position. America, to use your own words, needs to accept the responsibility for its own actions.
Oh, and please don't put words in my mouth so you can strawman them to death. It's not a very good way of influencing people. They tend to notice. Diplomacy is going to be pretty tough owing to the justified hatred you've bult up against you. That's the consequence of your actions. Accept responsibility for it and stop blaming the people you helped oppress for decades for getting pissed at you now that they're free.
Oh, and could you perhaps mention all the great things America has done in the region? You can't just assert these marvellous and wonderful things without evidence. I, at least, gave you examples of the s&%+ty things the US has done. Your turn.
WOW man you need to kick your history teacher in the nuts!!! No need to apologize to me, just learn and go forward please. If we cannot agree on this I don't see us talking about any of the other points you asked me to answer. Useless.