They stack(for lack of a better word). Fury's Fall adds dex to your CMB.
By the normal(base) rules CMB is "STR mod + BAB + size bonus + other applicable bonus"
You can use strength and agility to send foes crashing to the ground.
Prerequisites: Improved Trip.
Benefit: When making a trip attack, add your Dexterity bonus to your CMB.
The fluff/flavor says "use strength and agility "
The mechanics say "add your Dexterity bonus to your". It never says dex replaces strength so now the formula is ""STR mod + BAB + size bonus + other applicable bonus + dex mod".That is RAW and RAI..
Now we look at "Agile Maneuvers" which explicitly replaces strength in the base formula..
That means you get to use dex in place of strength, and add it to the CMB total.-->double dip dex.
Both are untyped bonuses, and therefore, they stack.Actually no.
CMB is calculated thusly,
BAB+Str Bonus
With Agile Maneuvers you get,
BAB+Dex Bonus
You are already adding your Dex Bonus to the check.
With Fury's Fall you get,
BAB+Dex Bonus+Dex Bonus which isn't an allowed combination.
Dexterity Bonuses do NOT stack with each other.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, modifiers of the same type never stack with each other. That is the general rule stated in the book.
A dex bonus is not a named dex bonus in the book.
The specific bonus types are things like moral bonus, insight bonus and so on so a dex bonus would fall under one of those bonues, such as an untyped bonus which always stack unless they come from the same source.
Ah yes, types. But I've always thought attribute bonuses were untyped...
They are untyped, and they are not stackign in this case. Stacking and adding the bonus twice are not synonamous.
Trying to using dex twice for the exact same purpose would be stacking.
As an example if both abilities replaced strength with dex that would be stacking. If the same score can be applied twice, but in different ways it is not stacking.
They stack(for lack of a better word). Fury's Fall adds dex to your CMB.
By the normal(base) rules CMB is "STR mod + BAB + size bonus + other applicable bonus"You can use strength and agility to send foes crashing to the ground.
Prerequisites: Improved Trip.
Benefit: When making a trip attack, add your Dexterity bonus to your CMB.
The fluff/flavor says "use strength and agility "
The mechanics say "add your Dexterity bonus to your". It never says dex replaces strength so now the formula is ""STR mod + BAB + size bonus + other applicable bonus + dex mod".That is RAW and RAI..
Now we look at "Agile Maneuvers" which explicitly replaces strength in the base formula..
That means you get to use dex in place of strength, and add it to the CMB total.-->double dip dex.
Wraith got the right of it, I agree with this interpretation. It seems totally RAW to me, and if you remember that its very hard to trip things on high levels, if not many times impossible, I would say its totally RAI too, as it isnt that powerful even with both feats.
|
Scavion, Fury's Fall adds your Dex modifier to your trip attempts, not to your CMB.
CMB = BaB + Size Modifier + Str mod
AM/WF CMB = BaB + Size Modifier + Dex mod
Fury's Fall adds Dex mod to your Combat Maneuver checks when making Trip attempts.
Trip check: 1d20 + CMB + Improved Trip + Greater Trip + Fury's Fall + Weapon Enhancement + Weapon feats = your total Trip attempt, which is then checked against your target's trip DC.
Scavion, Fury's Fall adds your Dex modifier to your trip attempts, not to your CMB.
Let me be more specific then. It adds dex to your CMB when you try to trip someone.
I thought my intent was clear, but I can see how my words did not match what I intended.
<not being sarcastic> Just making sure you know that I know what I am talking about.
Wasn't this resolved on the first page? Whether you like the answer or not doesn't mean its not the correct answer.
They two feats were said to overlap not stack. That is how it funcitons.
Wasn't this resolved on the first page? Whether you like the answer or not doesn't mean its not the correct answer.
They two feats were said to overlap not stack. That is how it funcitons.
Nobody has yet to explain how I am incorrect by using rule citations, and since I dont use trip builds I really dont care how it works. I have no horse in this race.
My explanation works by the rules. There is no overlapping because they dont do the same thing. One replaces strength, and the other is an addition to your CMB.
Wasn't this resolved on the first page? Whether you like the answer or not doesn't mean its not the correct answer.
They two feats were said to overlap not stack. That is how it funcitons.
Nobody has yet to explain how I am incorrect by using rule citations, and since I dont use trip builds I really dont care how it works. I have no horse in this race.
My explanation works by the rules. There is no overlapping because they dont do the same thing. One replaces strength, and the other is an addition to your CMB.
I'm not particularly concerned about this ruling, I just feel like we've already been told once and no matter how you spin it daddy done told you.
I'm not particularly concerned about this ruling, I just feel like we've already been told once and no matter how you spin it daddy done told you.Wasn't this resolved on the first page? Whether you like the answer or not doesn't mean its not the correct answer.
They two feats were said to overlap not stack. That is how it funcitons.
Nobody has yet to explain how I am incorrect by using rule citations, and since I dont use trip builds I really dont care how it works. I have no horse in this race.
My explanation works by the rules. There is no overlapping because they dont do the same thing. One replaces strength, and the other is an addition to your CMB.
Who is "daddy"? If you mean James he is not the rules guy and has admitted quiet a few posters here know the rules better than he does, and is more of a rule for fun/balance vs rule for RAI type. That is not bad, and it does not mean he does not know the rules. I am sure he does, but his statement on rules is no more official than mine is, and my explanation is backed by the rules. So until you can use the rules to say I am wrong, then I am correct. So far nobody has been able to do so. I doubt you will be able to do so either. If you feel like the RAW is not matching RAI feel free to start a new post on the topic.
Who is "daddy"? If you mean James he is not the rules guy and has admitted quiet a few posters here know the rules better than he does, and is more of a rule for fun/balance vs rule for RAI type. That is not bad, and it does not mean he does not know the rules. I am sure he does, but his statement on rules is no more official than mine is, and my explanation is backed by the rules. So until you can use the rules to say I am wrong, then I am correct. So far nobody has been able to do so. I doubt you will be able to do so either. If you feel like the RAW is not matching RAI feel free to start a new post on the topic.I'm not particularly concerned about this ruling, I just feel like we've already been told once and no matter how you spin it daddy done told you.Wasn't this resolved on the first page? Whether you like the answer or not doesn't mean its not the correct answer.
They two feats were said to overlap not stack. That is how it funcitons.
Nobody has yet to explain how I am incorrect by using rule citations, and since I dont use trip builds I really dont care how it works. I have no horse in this race.
My explanation works by the rules. There is no overlapping because they dont do the same thing. One replaces strength, and the other is an addition to your CMB.
I totally agree with what wraith said.
I was just trying to be funny when I said daddy. It was just a turn of phrase.
Anyways, I will continue to go with the only developer commentary we have despite James not being a "rules guy". You're free to continue arguing about it, this is one that I just don't care enough about to argue.
The RAW is clear. It works. They are untyped bonuses from two different sources. Therefore they stack. It is equally clear that the designers did not intend for it to function that way. Play it how you will in your home games.
Until errata or official FAQ, I will probably let them stack in my games (otherwise, why ever take Fury's Fall over Agile Maneuvers?).
|
It would be great if the PDT would change the "No response required" response... If the answer is in the thread they should quote the post that has it right or something, because 10 out of 10 times there are multiple opinions or possible outcomes... I just spent a lot of time re-reading these threads trying to find the correct answer and I still have two possible interpretations that could be right.
#frustrating
|
I would personally avoid it in PFS, since it is up to interpreation and there is a statement that the same stat cannot be applied twice. Many GMs will simply not allow it (and when you announce +37 to CMB @ level 10, they will ask for your math).
But there's not enoough to explicitly say "no". So bottom line: it is almost certainly already flagged for FAQ, I wouldn't do it yet in PFS, and ask your GM for home games.
As to FF over AM, if you are Str based with a +2-4 dex (most trip polearm builds would be like this), it's a great addition to your Trip CMB. Agile Manuevers is for strictly-DEX based characters, and would not function at all for a str-based chracter.
I go to bed for a few hours and look what happens.
What I find really funny, is the same people who argue that this doesn't work, are often the same ones who let Inquisitors double dip Wis to certain skills based on archetypes, and paladin/lore oracles double dip Cha to reflex saves.
Not all, but many.
Inquisitors can't either. Paladins/Oracle junk works sadly because of the Paladin's wording on Divine Grace.
If Fury's Fall was worded like Divine Grace there would be no issue. Divine Grace doesn't add your Charisma Mod to your saves. It lets you add a bonus[untyped] to your saves equal to your charisma bonus.
The fact of the matter is yeah Combat Maneuvers are all but impossible at the high levels. I'd love for it to not, but I'm not playing second fiddle to some ulterior agenda. I love martials. I wish Combat Maneuvers were any good.
I'm going to go make a thread now.
I was just trying to be funny when I said daddy. It was just a turn of phrase.
Anyways, I will continue to go with the only developer commentary we have despite James not being a "rules guy". You're free to continue arguing about it, this is one that I just don't care enough about to argue.
It is fine to go that route, but if you are going to tell someone they are wrong it should be backed with logic, and not just "I believe someone else based on their position".
PS: I am not saying James's opinion is not logical. I am saying you following him based on his names.
Claxon: Well don't people believe you based on who you are sometimes?
Wraithstrike: That is not the point here. :)
New thread here folks, come in and click on faq so we can get an answer to this!
There have been plenty of positions within the game that were "backed by logic" only to be ruled against. So, logic can provide a position and conclusion. However, we have seen where that need not necessarily apply in some rulings (and for various reasons).
As I said, barring some more official clarification I would advise a dex based character against taking both Fury's Fall and Agile Maneuvers. Mostly because (I agree with RavingDork) that it seems the designers did not intend for it to function that way.
My other point which was missed was that even if this was a typed bonus it would not be stacking since the two feats do to different things. <---That is my opinion anyway.
I guess another thread could also be, does it count as stacking, if the same bonus is added for an entirely different affect such as in the case of these two feats.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The RAW is clear. It works. They are untyped bonuses from two different sources. Therefore they stack. It is equally clear that the designers did not intend for it to function that way. Play it how you will in your home games.
Until errata or official FAQ, I will probably let them stack in my games (otherwise, why ever take Fury's Fall over Agile Maneuvers?).
How is it clear? I also think this is the first time you are arguing for less power, while I am arguing for more power..
Strange. o.O
Just noticed something.
CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier
AM can be read as "You add (your Dexterity bonus to your base attack bonus and size bonus) when determining your Combat Maneuver Bonus instead of (your Strength bonus)." I.e.: CMB = BAB + (Dex + BAB + Size) + Size.
Add in FF, and you get:
CMB = [BAB + (Dex + BAB + Size) + Size] + Dex.
Unlikely RAI, I agree, but it could be parsed that way.
(runs and hides in an asbestos lined shelter.)
/cevah
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just noticed something.
CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifierAM can be read as "You add (your Dexterity bonus to your base attack bonus and size bonus) when determining your Combat Maneuver Bonus instead of (your Strength bonus)." I.e.: CMB = BAB + (Dex + BAB + Size) + Size.
Add in FF, and you get:
CMB = [BAB + (Dex + BAB + Size) + Size] + Dex.Unlikely RAI, I agree, but it could be parsed that way.
(runs and hides in an asbestos lined shelter.)
/cevah
No, reread the "normal" in Agile Maneuvers. It uses the same language and illustrates what is being done.
Ok so I came across this old thread while trying to make a trip build. It occurs to me that if aa adds dex to all of your cmb ( pick any of them trip disarm grapple etc) then it would appear that aa is not adding to trip specifically. My main argument for ff granting a dex bonus to trip is that it is not calculated into cmb but rather would be a bonus that stacks with improved and greater trip. So say your cmb is 14 with aa then with improved trip your trip attack is 16, while say grapple is still 14. Now add ff ( say the Dec bonus is 2 for the sake of a number ) then trip goes up to 18 while grapple is still14.
Ok so I came across this old thread while trying to make a trip build. It occurs to me that if aa adds dex to all of your cmb ( pick any of them trip disarm grapple etc) then it would appear that aa is not adding to trip specifically. My main argument for ff granting a dex bonus to trip is that it is not calculated into cmb but rather would be a bonus that stacks with improved and greater trip. So say your cmb is 14 with aa then with improved trip your trip attack is 16, while say grapple is still 14. Now add ff ( say the Dec bonus is 2 for the sake of a number ) then trip goes up to 18 while grapple is still14.
nope
a new faq was released, you can't add an untyped attribute modifier bonus twice to the same roll
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Errata, you mean.
|
|
It's all part of the "typed" untyped errata, that notes a single bonus can have multiple sources, depending on the type of bonus.
A Bonus having multiple source, which creates more overlap, and means a that it could invoke the "no multiple bonuses from the same source" rule, in the magic section.
This also means that the rules from the magic section, can, in some cases, apply to things that are not magical.
This also means, that you gain a bonus, that actually decreases the total bonus.
This also means, that not all untyped bonuses are created equal, and some are considered "typed", whilst remaining untyped.
Have fun with that!
Errata, you mean.Does it make a difference what you call it?
Very much.
A FAQ is a clarification of existing ambiguity that has caused confusion.
An Errata is a complete change of a rule.
That is enough distinction on its own, but the latter is also hypocritical given the design team's repeatedly stated desire to avoid "incremental change via errata".
That is enough distinction on its own, but the latter is also hypocritical given the design team's repeatedly stated desire to avoid "incremental change via errata".And?
And what?
You asked what the distinction was.
I explained it.
So now here is potentially a dumb question if the Dex does not stack due to aa does ff allows you to add your strength bonus back since it allows you to use both on a trip.
|
|
So now here is potentially a dumb question if the Dex does not stack due to aa does ff allows you to add your strength bonus back since it allows you to use both on a trip.
Possibly. Possibly not.
I could mean, that whilst before, you did not add your negative/positive strength modifier, now you do, along with your positive dexterity modifier.
I could also mean, that you still don't add the negative/modifier strength modifier, but now have a dead feat.
And what?How is it meaningful?
You seriously don't understand the distinction between a clarification and a change?
Clarification: I tell you to do something, and you don't understand, so I re-explain it to you more clearly.
Change: I tell you to do something and you don't understand, so I give you a different task entirely.
If you start changing enough things about the ruleset, it becomes a different game entirely. Which isn't necessarily a problem when the game is heavily flawed, but apparently that isn't something the PDT want to do, so it works counter to their stated goals.
That's important. It's a disconnect between what they SAY and what they DO.
Especially when (as in this case, it seems) they don't realize that's what they're doing. If I can't trust the PDT to understand that changes they make are actually changes, then a lot more changes will likely be forthcoming.
Which will lead to exactly the same goal they say they're trying to avoid.
|
|
FAQ: Huh? I read that wrong. Well, I will study what I did wrong, so I can try to prevent such misreadings in the future.
Errata: What? Okay, I didn't expect that to change. Now, I have change a number of things. I can't really do anything to prevent these things, so I will have to steel myself for the next sudden change. How do I do that?
You seriously don't understand the distinction between a clarification and a change?You think people need to not understand to ask a question?
If you understand a distinction, asking someone to define it for you can only have one other purpose, which is to "test" them to make sure they know what the distinction is.
I hadn't thought you were that condescending, honestly.
Not that kind of question.
"What's the distinction?" is a very different question from "Why does this matter to you?"
A question without an answer is just kind of floating there. More like clutter than anything.
Even a rhetorical question has an answer (since the asker has already drawn his own conclusion).
As the saying goes, don't ask questions you don't want to hear the answer to. =)
When the question is as simple as the definition of two different words, I should hope they would.
I gave an answer beyond that, but "clarify" and "change" are already two different words with a meaningful distinction between them, by definition.
|
|
I'd like to necro this thread because of the recent ability modifier stacking FAQ; it seems intended for these two feats not to stack...
link to FAQ: Link