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I have seen many people claim that some classes are gear dependent while others are not. I would like to see this put to the test. I would like to see some non-gear dependent builds for casters.
These are the criteria:
1) 20 point buy (the game assumes 15 but I will concede that many use 20)
2) The character must be able to survive at all levels below it's build. If you build a 10th level druid, show it at some lower levels too so we can see that it can survive.
3) No magical gear. Spellbooks are ok, swords are ok, etc. Blessed Books and +1 longswords are not. This also means no crafting because then you would have magical gear. I know that means that some classes won't be using class features but them's the breaks. The claim is that those classes aren't gear dependent.
4) The build must be able to contribute meaningful (whatever that means) to four appropriate challenges a day without rest. You can go for fewer or more if you adjust the amount of resources you think you should use.
I would like to see builds for each class if possible. A variety of levels and racial options is also welcome.
With all that cash unused can we buy permanent spells? Those available via permanency. And when we reach level 17th with full arcane caster can we cast wish?
Honestly, "less gear dependant" doesn't equate to no magical gear.
Out of the PFRPG there are several builds that I can think of that wil do well with little magical gear but aren't completely independent of gear. Druids come to mind, they can shapeshift for decent melee damage as well as get magical enhancement (magic fang/greater magic fang) but will be vastly more effective with magical gear (Armor, stat enhancement gear, various other gear from the UE).
EDIT: If allowing for 3PP sources a Soulknife5/Aegis5/Metaforge10 is about as gear "independant" as you can get. "Free" magical weapon and armor and being able to "swap" enhancements from weapon to armor (DPS to tank role).
The problem I have had is that I continuously read comments like "fighters are gear dependent." Of course they are, they need armor and weapons. But I also read how powerful casters are because they have really high saves (which require gear to get there), scrolls, wands, etc. all of which are gear. I read how wizards can have all kinds of spells but anything beyond the 2/level is technically more gear. I don't see casters as any less gear dependent than non-casters. I would like to see someone show me that I'm wrong. I believe that I can be wrong.
I can build a fighter that only needs two magic weapons and magic armor to remain viable at all levels. It won't be the best, but it's not really any more gear dependent than casters who need a ton of scrolls to be flexible.
I can build a fighter that only needs two magic weapons and magic armor to remain viable at all levels. It won't be the best, but it's not really any more gear dependent than casters who need a ton of scrolls to be flexible.You have to show that fighter...
** spoiler omitted **
I'll post a complete build level 1 to 20 tomorrow. I've got some plans tonight.
I believe all character are gear dependent. But this dependency varies with class, role and build.
While a wizard may need some AC/Save boosting item, this a gear that is universally useful/necessary. And if he loses his Ring of Protection, he can still become invisible, teleport, summon magical creatures, control the enemy's mind or something.
A Fighter without a magic sword can't do anything against a Ghost. And his effectiveness is greatly reduced if the enemy has DR/magic (which is a very common DR).
So yeah, no class is completely independent from gear. But some of them need it more than others.
Another problem is that casters can craft their own gear. Fighter'll have to spend 2 feats to do so, and what they get is half a feat worth.
That said, I do think gear-dependency is too often overstated. Give the Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger/Whatever a +2 Sword and some Save-boosters and he's good to go. Sure, he'll really miss that Belt of Giant Strenght, but he can do it.
I believe all character are gear dependent. But this dependency varies with class, role and build.
While a wizard may need some AC/Save boosting item, this a gear that is universally useful/necessary. And if he loses his Ring of Protection, he can still become invisible, teleport, summon magical creatures, control the enemy's mind or something.
A Fighter without a magic sword can't do anything against a Ghost. And his effectiveness is greatly reduced if the enemy has DR/magic (which is a very common DR).
So yeah, no class is completely independent from gear. But some of them need it more than others.
Another problem is that casters can craft their own gear. Fighter'll have to spend 2 feats to do so, and what they get is half a feat worth.
That said, I do think gear-dependency is too often overstated. Give the Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger/Whatever a +2 Sword and some Save-boosters and he's good to go. Sure, he'll really miss that Belt of Giant Strenght, but he can do it.
I don't deny any of that. I just get frustrated when the casters are considered gear-independent until people want them to be able to actually affect things with their excess spells. If a character needs to craft magic items to be as powerful as people claim, seems to me that class is gear-dependent. It doesn't matter if it's a class ability or not, it's still gear.
Agreed with Lemmy. Also saves and AC are universally good so saying someone needs them feels like a "duh" statement.
Something like fighters needing magical weapons to be effective against incorporeal or DR20/pancakes(insert proper DR type here) is the only real complaints with substance. Spellcasters would never run into a creature that can laugh at magic (demilich, golems) at the levels that most people play PF at, but fighters can run into things with weird or high DR at much lower CRs (allip, werewolf) in comparison.
Edit:
Oh, another annoyance for fighters can be loot. If I as a DM were to use the random treasure tables the fighter that went weapon training, focus, and specialization in lets say kukri would probably never see a magical kukri come up and be penalized just because his class makes him specialize to get the greatest benefit.
I will admit though for some groups this is not a problem as you might have a magic mart within mini-questing distance, but that might not work either based on city size/party location/campaign setting.
Agreed with Lemmy. Also saves and AC are universally good so saying someone needs them feels like a "duh" statement.
Something like fighters needing magical weapons to be effective against incorporeal or DR20/pancakes(insert proper DR type here) is the only real complaints with substance. Spellcasters would never run into a creature that can laugh at magic (demilich, golems) at the levels that most people play PF at, but fighters can run into things with weird or high DR at much lower CRs (allip, werewolf) in comparison.
Dunno about demi-liches, but right now, a Wizard can pretty much own Golens. There are lots of spells with SR:No and spells that are made to affect constructs too.
If we consider most gold is usually spent boosting attack/damage, AC, saves and mobility (usually Flight), I do think Fighters need to invest more gold than most other classes to get similar benefits.
But, as I said, except for a +1 weapon/armor and Save boosters, I don't think any magic item is completely indispensable (well, save for obvious exceptions, such as a Wizard's bonded object).
Basically, while gear dependency is real and does vary with class/build/role, it's more often than not, not nearly as bad as many people claim.
Dunno about demi-liches, but right now, a Wizard can pretty much own Golens. There are lots of spells with SR:No and spells that are made to affect constructs too.
My only thoughts about that is your average golem is CR 8+, where casters will be of sufficient strength to have a bevy of spells to deal with magic immunity (assuming APL+1 you will have 3rd or 4th circle spells). at the suggested CR for just my 2 example creatures (there are more in the books, but Allip=CR 3, Werewolf=CR 2) your average fighter will be at either starting gear or 900g WBL, which is not even enough for a magic weapon. So he is useless against the Allip and can only hurt the werewolf if he deals 10 points of damage or more (at level 1-2 we are talking near max damage rolls).
I will add to all of this though it really depends on who your DM is and what your party composition is, experiences will vary when it comes to monster encounters.
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How about party-dependence? Many classes aren't expected to function operating without a party. A fighter without magic items but with a cleric to heal him and cast Magic Weapon spells is at a disadvantage but not out of the game. A cleric without a fighter has it tougher but can enchant his own items and heal himself. Sure, combat will be very difficult, but you get less "you cannot continue without X" moments. It's not quite as absolute, more a matter of endurance/attrition than suddenly meeting something you can't affect at all.
I think that much of the problem I have is the hyperbole. Every class needs gear to be able to handle the expectations of the game. Depending on the play style of the group, how much each class is dependent will vary. Some people assume that every group plays like theirs. When given contrary anecdotes (which are completely valid for these discussions), they are told they are playing wrong.
I'm mostly just venting. It's one of the tired tropes I see and no amount of theory-crafting will change how people actually play the game. I have never seen any class excel without gear. I have seen people try. I have never seen them succeed.
+1 to this thread :-)
I also really like to see those builds. I read again and again that wizards (standard example for casters) have their scrolls available, but "are gear-independent" (they somehow do not spend their cash for that), they only need a headband and nothing else (but still make all those fortitude saves) etc. Skills are somehow unnecessary (poor rogue) because the wizard just casts detect trap the whole dungeon and flies up the cliff and always has see invisibility up at the right time. And for some reason they always have enough spells that day for all rounds of combat and - of course - outside of combat where fighters and other martial classes rather "cannot contribute".
In the end, when it comes to real builds, either none is presented or they are often shown to be invalid (excess money, rules misunderstanding, always have all spells available and fit them into a single spellbook, no problem with encumberance even though they only have an "optimized" 5 str but 20 int etc.) or gear-dependent after all.
So I am looking very much forward to this thread with *survivable* builds.
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I was thinking about this last night... something I forgot to consider is how gear dependency shifts as the levels goes up.
Casters are much more fragile at low levels, and any item they lack can have a huge impact on survivability. But their gear dependency becomes (relatively) smaller as they level up.
A 4th level wizard is bad positioning away from being killed, but a 16th level can probably squander spell slots and doesn't need much more than he needed a 2nd level (altough he does need improved versions of those items)
Martial classes, on the other hand, especially Fighters and Rogues, are pretty much self-sufficient at low levels, but usually need more and more gear to keep up with CR appropriate challenges as they level up, since DR becomes more common and flying/incorporeal/invisible creatures are seen more often.
A 4th level Fighter can kick ass all day, every day, even if he's using a freakin improvised weapon. His saves are not that much worse than other characters with similar attributes and spells are usually not that dangerous. A 16th level fighter must have invested a great deal of cash into saves, since Will saves become obscenely important. He'll probably need 3 or 4 different magic weapons or 2 very expensive ones, to deal with those annoying DR. He'll also probably need some kind of extra mobility, so buying items that grant flight, while not absolutely vital, are a wise invesment.
Paladins are, IMO, the least gear dependent martial class, even without their spells. Barbarians may be a close second, and Rangers a distant 3rd place.
The same progression can be seen in "Party Dependence",as Ascalaphus puts it. A low level wizard is pretty much dead if he doesn't have a friendly meat shield around. A high level fighter needs help from his casty friends to avoid (or remove) debuffs (and by debuff, I mean anything that hampers their effectiveness in combat).
However, I still say that a little bit of teamwork, a couple magic weapons and some nice Cloaks of Resistance are enough to make sure everyone gets to survive all 20 levels. (But that doesn't mean you should refuse that shiny Belt of Giant Strength that the GM put in your way)
I think that much of the problem I have is the hyperbole. Every class needs gear to be able to handle the expectations of the game. Depending on the play style of the group, how much each class is dependent will vary.
So very true. Everyone needs gear. Some characters a bit more than others, but it's not like a Figher can't survive without a +5 Vorpal Sivelsheen Falchion, a +5 Speed/Seeking Composite Longbow, a Celestial full Plate and a Belt of Physical Perfection +10.
Those are always nice, of course, and if you can get them, you should. But none of them is a absolute must-have.
Want a Fighter build that can stay relevant throughout 20 levels?
Build a moderately optimized build (i.e.: don't make it obviously weak; remember to pick up feats for both melee and ranged combat). Give him a +2 sword, a +2 longbow and the best Cloak of Resistance you can afford! Put skill ranks in Perception.
Ta-daa!
He won't be the most powerful character around, but he has enough tools to do his job. If he's lucky, he may even get a magic armor too...
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Maybe we can differentiate between different types of gear you may be dependent on?
* Bonus Gear just boosts your stats somehow. Headbands, magic armor etcetera. CR assumes that at level X, you've got some assorted bonuses (probably acquired from such items), which you'll need to keep up with monster abilities (save DCs, AC, damage..)
* Accessing gear: stuff you need to even get into the adventure. Martials can't really travel the planes without help from items or casters. Also includes flying carpets if you have lots of aerial destinations or waterbreathing gear for underwater adventures. May also include disguises in intrigue adventures.
* Penetration gear: stuff to get past immunities and DR. Without some form of this, you'll meet enemies that you can't injure. Arguably this includes bows to attack flying enemies. Also includes holy water to confront low-level incorporeal undead.
* Niche gear: handling unusual situations. Scrolls/potions are probably the best example. Like removing weird conditions. This category overlaps with the other categories but is distinguished by it being the "rare emergency" category.
* Special Defenses: this kind of gear stops devastating attacks. An item that blocks level drain, a Ring of Evasion, energy protection if you're facing energy-heavy monsters.
Spellcasters can simulate almost all of this with spells, but doing everything with spells is too expensive in terms of spells per day used. I think the Accessing and Penetration are actually the categories where the biggest differences between classes occur; casters get Penetration almost by default, if they don't select all their spells in the same energy type or somesuch. Clerics/Druids are the kings of Accessing due to their wide spell list.
On the other hand, Niche is something you can't really do with spells, because the whole point of it is to have a backup scroll/potion for obscure emergencies. It's for problems you don't expect to encounter so you don't want to waste slots on, but you want to cover the rare case when it does happen.
Bonus, Special Defense and even sometimes Accessing gear is important to spellcasters, because you use the magic it simulates/replaces quite often and doing it by spell would consume too much spells per day.
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While I like the idea, when people say "less gear dependent" they're not usually talking about having zero gear... It's more like "if a fighter has half WBL, it'll lose maybe 30% efficiency. If a druid has half WBL, they'll lose maybe 10% efficiency".
I think summoners, druids, bards, oracles, sorcerers and to some extent monks, wizards and clerics can work well with <100 gp gear. They'll be far weaker than with gear though. But if I knew I had 100 gp gear and would never get more, I'd much rather pick a druid or bard than a fighter or paladin.
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I'm not really concerned with damage reduction. Even a +5 weapon only adds 5 points of damage. Most of the damage comes from the fighter's abilities. The bonuses from magic weapons also helps to get past other forms of damage reduction as well.
I agree that teamwork is far more important than gear. I have seen players come up with all kinds of solutions when they haven't had gear. The most interesting solutions I've seen for killing the enemy:
1) Drowning creatures they can't hurt (2E and 3E had a lot of creatures that required certain pluses on weapons).
2) Throwing creatures off cliffs or into more dangerous opponents.
3) Energy attacks. I have watched players take out trolls by having half the party throw lamp oil at them while the other half lights them up with flaming arrows or torches. I have even seen someone grapple a troll and hold it in a bonfire while they both took damage. The troll had already been beaten down a bit and it was a gamble that paid off.
4) Diplomacy and Bluff to convince the enemy that someone else was a worse enemy that needed attention.
There are plenty of other things they have done as well. Creative players aren't restricted by lack of gear.
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None gear drivin classes. All have somthing in common. The ability to heal HP damage, and other effects. Next the ones that have some kind of companion. Do much better then the ones with out. It becomes a game of action economey. With the lower AC. The ability to hit is not in question. It becomes how much damage can you do. Then how fast can you recover from the fight with out the happy stick (wand of cure light wounds). So healing ability's become very important.
Top
Druid, Summoner, Ranger, Paladin
Other Good Choices
Witch, Cleric, Oracle, Inquisitor, Bard,
I'm not seeing anyone post any evidence of builds that can survive without much gear. I do see claims but still no evidence. I really would like to see the builds that can pull this off.
I think that much of the problem I have is the hyperbole. Every class needs gear to be able to handle the expectations of the game. Depending on the play style of the group, how much each class is dependent will vary.So very true. Everyone needs gear. Some characters a bit more than others, but it's not like a Figher can't survive without a +5 Vorpal Sivelsheen Falchion, a +5 Speed/Seeking Composite Longbow, a Celestial full Plate and a Belt of Physical Perfection +10.
Those are always nice, of course, and if you can get them, you should. But none of them is a absolute must-have.
Want a Fighter build that can stay relevant throughout 20 levels?
Build a moderately optimized build (i.e.: don't make it obviously weak; remember to pick up feats for both melee and ranged combat). Give him a +2 sword, a +2 longbow and the best Cloak of Resistance you can afford! Put skill ranks in Perception.
Ta-daa!
He won't be the most powerful character around, but he has enough tools to do his job. If he's lucky, he may even get a magic armor too...
I think that defense is the fighter's biggest problem. Non-magical armor and shields just don't provide enough AC boosts and the low Reflex and Will saves can only be dealt with so much without gear. That being said, if the fighter can hit hard enough and fast enough, those defenses may not be as important.
Maybe we can differentiate between different types of gear you may be dependent on?
Now we're getting more specific and I can accept this breakdown. This does change the argument from "gear dependent" to "versatility with their gear." In this I agree. The non-casters do have less versatility with their gear because their gear is so much more expensive. Many casters can create some of their consumables while adventuring which can really help. It takes some time, but they can do it. The non-casters don't have that options as freely.
Bob: I'll directly say that ANY standard bard will work - bard is the easily least gear dependant class, since it can go full-on support role and contribute meaningfully. Since what you requested was that rather than being able to solo a certain encounter (and thank you for that much more sensible requirement), any character who's primary role is to buff others will do fine without gear.
I can stat something up for you, but since most meaningful abilities are fixed, I could simply make a template if that's okay.
Race: Human for extra spells or gnome for -str+con and extra performance
Stats: Cha -> Dex -> Con -> Int -> Wis - > Str; boosts and survival first, skills second, offensive power last. Good will means a mediocre wis is okay.
Spells: Any buffs, a few status removal, maybe some non-save-reliant battlefield control. Mainly buffs though.
Feats: Imp. init, extend spell, maybe reach spell. Otherwise defensive feats to survive.
Skills: Knowledges are always helpful to the party, or "face" skills if no other face is available.
Regardless of level, this PC will be helpful and contribute meaningfully. At 7th level, it can prebuff itself and it's party with some long-term stuff, and open up combat with giving everyone +2 attack and damage followed by Haste on the party, or by Silencing the fighter or casting Darkness or similar to change the battlefield. Out of combat, even with a paltry 10 intelligence, it will have (if human) 7 maxed skills + versatile performance + bardic knowledge - even with a single point in each knowledge skill it means it can automatically make any check with a DC of 17 or less.
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20 Point Build.
HP as per PFSP Max level1 + HD 1/2 +1 Con Mod. HD D6=4 D8=5 D10=6 D12=7
Feet's and Ability's at level 10.
Human
Oracle (Battle)
Str19 Dex14 Con14 Int12 Wis7 Cha14
Feet's + Revelation
H: Improved Initiative
1: Extra Revelation : War Sight R: Skill at Arms
3: Exotic Weapon Profincey : Fauchard R: Weapon Mastery : Fauchard
5: Toughness
7: Power Attack R: Manenver Mastery : Trip
9: Improved Over Run
Traits : Reactionary, Vagabond Child (Disable Device as class skill.)
Initiative: +8 (Rolling 2 Dice. Acts in supprise round.)
Fort 5
Ref 5
Will 5
HP 73
CMB Trip : using Fauchard +17
Fauchard To Hit +13 Damage 1D10+6 Crit 15-20/X2 : Reach, Trip
Power Attack To Hit +11 Damage 1D10+12
+ Divine Favor To Hit +14 Damage 1D10+15
+ Enlarge Person To Hit +14 Damage 2D8+16
Spells Known
0: Light, Creat Water, Mending, Stablize, Read Magic,
1: Cure Light wounds, Divine Favor, Bless, Enlarge Person, Sun Metal, Shield of Faith, Comprehend Language
2: Fog Cloud, Cure Moderate Wounds, Grace, Resist Energy, Lesser Restoration, Spear of Purity,
3: Magic Vestment, Cure Serious Wounds, Daylight, Remove Curse, Wind Wall,
4: Wall of Fire, Cure Critical Wounds, Blessing of Fevor, Restoration
5: Righteous Might, Cure Light Wounds: Mass, Holy Ice, Rase Dead
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Bob: I'll directly say that ANY standard bard will work - bard is the easily least gear dependant class, since it can go full-on support role and contribute meaningfully. Since what you requested was that rather than being able to solo a certain encounter (and thank you for that much more sensible requirement), any character who's primary role is to buff others will do fine without gear.
That is a completely valid point and not one that I had taken into account. I would like to mention that this is interesting though because you will need someone to buff and in combat, that should probably be the martial characters since they will need fewer buffs to contribute meaningfully to combat.
I can stat something up for you, but since most meaningful abilities are fixed, I could simply make a template if that's okay.
Race: Human for extra spells or gnome for -str+con and extra performance
Stats: Cha -> Dex -> Con -> Int -> Wis - > Str; boosts and survival first, skills second, offensive power last. Good will means a mediocre wis is okay.
Spells: Any buffs, a few status removal, maybe some non-save-reliant battlefield control. Mainly buffs though.
Feats: Imp. init, extend spell, maybe reach spell. Otherwise defensive feats to survive.
Skills: Knowledges are always helpful to the party, or "face" skills if no other face is available.Regardless of level, this PC will be helpful and contribute meaningfully. At 7th level, it can prebuff itself and it's party with some long-term stuff, and open up combat with giving everyone +2 attack and damage followed by Haste on the party, or by Silencing the fighter or casting Darkness or similar to change the battlefield. Out of combat, even with a paltry 10 intelligence, it will have (if human) 7 maxed skills + versatile performance + bardic knowledge - even with a single point in each knowledge skill it means it can automatically make any check with a DC of 17 or less.
While not a full build, it does show that gear is less meaningful for a character meant to buff others, in effect becoming the gear they don't have. With gear, they all get better, but without gear the bard will probably contribute more than other classes in and out of combat more. It won't be the one doing the killing but it will be the one making sure the killing can happen.
Spells are the only real concern I would have but then that is a concern of any caster without scrolls or wands to handle utility spells.
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Some "Niche" things you can catch by preparing the right spells the next day, but not always. For example, things like Phase Spiders or Xill, that use material/ethereal shifting to do hit&run attacks or even drag back a PC to the ethereal plane. That's when you need your Niche object to save your bacon. Otherwise you're stuck doing really complicated Rule-Fu with Ready Actions to even have a chance of fighting back.
Spoiler:20 Point Build.
HP as per PFSP Max level1 + HD 1/2 +1 Con Mod. HD D6=4 D8=5 D10=6 D12=7
Feet's and Ability's at level 10.Human
Oracle (Battle)
Str19 Dex14 Con14 Int12 Wis7 Cha14
Feet's + Revelation
H: Improved Initiative
1: Extra Revelation : War Sight R: Skill at Arms
3: Exotic Weapon Profincey : Fauchard R: Weapon Mastery : Fauchard
5: Toughness
7: Power Attack R: Manenver Mastery : Trip
9: Improved Over Run
Traits : Reactionary, Vagabond Child (Disable Device as class skill.)Initiative: +8 (Rolling 2 Dice. Acts in supprise round.)
Fort 5
Ref 5
Will 5
HP 73
CMB Trip : using Fauchard +17
Fauchard To Hit +13 Damage 1D10+6 Crit 15-20/X2 : Reach, Trip
Power Attack To Hit +11 Damage 1D10+12
+ Divine Favor To Hit +14 Damage 1D10+15
+ Enlarge Person To Hit +14 Damage 2D8+16Spells Known
0: Light, Creat Water, Mending, Stablize, Read Magic,
1: Cure Light wounds, Divine Favor, Bless, Enlarge Person, Sun Metal, Shield of Faith, Comprehend Language
2: Fog Cloud, Cure Moderate Wounds, Grace, Resist Energy, Lesser Restoration, Spear of Purity,
3: Magic Vestment, Cure Serious Wounds, Daylight, Remove Curse, Wind Wall,
4: Wall of Fire, Cure Critical Wounds, Blessing of Fevor, Restoration
5: Righteous Might, Cure Light Wounds: Mass, Holy Ice, Rase Dead
To save some screen space I put the build in spoilers.
Out of curiosity, which curse did you choose?
You're short four 1st-level spells and one 2nd-level spell. You can't cast any 5th level spells (and you would have one too many anyway).
Your DPR for CR 9 creatures: 15.26. You can take out the creature in 7 to 8 rounds before you buff but power attacking.
Buffing will certainly change all of that but will you be able to buff enough fast enough? How many rounds do you need? You have at least two spells chosen for buffs. Let's assume you don't get to attack until round 3. Now your DPR is 22.14 which means you need about 5 rounds which is pretty much means not much of a change in total rounds to kill.
How about defenses? Well you didn't choose any armor but we can assume you will have the best you can get. Since it's not magical let's assume you have full plate and a buckler, both masterwork. That brings your AC to 20 (if you are enlarged). The enemy should be dealing 30-40 points per round. With your whopping 93 hit points (I assume you put your favored class in hit points) that means you have 3 to 4 rounds. That's not going to be enough even if you go first. But defenses are hard without magic as I mentioned before.
Your saves aren't going to cut it either. You need a 13 or better against their best DCs, which isn't bad but that's less than half the time.
So you aren't really in much better shape than the non-caster once you are buffed. However, the non-caster won't need to buff to get those same numbers.
Here's a 10th level fighter with a dagger:
Unnamed Hero
Human Fighter 10
NN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +1
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Defense
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AC 23, touch 13, flat-footed 20 (+9 armor, +1 shield, +2 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 94 (10d10+20)
Fort +9, Ref +7, Will +6
Defensive Abilities Bravery +3
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Masterwork Dagger +16/+11 (1d4+20/17-20/x2)
Special Attacks Weapon Training: Blades, Light, Weapon Training: Thrown
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Statistics
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Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +10; CMB +14 (+16 Overrunning); CMD 27 (29 vs. Overrun)
Feats Deadly Aim -3/+6, Dodge, Greater Weapon Focus (Dagger), Improved Critical (Dagger), Improved Initiative, Improved Overrun, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack -3/+6, Weapon Focus (Dagger), Weapon Specialization (Dagger)
Traits Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics -1, Climb +1, Escape Artist -1, Fly -1, Ride -1, Stealth -1, Swim +1
Languages Common
SQ Armor Training 2
Combat Gear Masterwork Buckler, Masterwork Dagger, Masterwork Full Plate;
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Masterwork Dagger - 0/1
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Special Abilities
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Armor Training 2 (Ex) Worn armor -2 check penalty, +2 max DEX.
Bravery +3 (Ex) +3 Will save vs. Fear
Deadly Aim -3/+6 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Improved Overrun You Overrun at +2, and your opponent cannot choose to avoid / block you.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Weapon Training: Blades, Light +2 (Ex) +2 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Light Blades
Weapon Training: Thrown +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Thrown weapons
Using the elite array, my saves are slightly better. My DPR is 24.15 which means I'm taking out the enemy in 4 to 5 rounds, the same as you do when you buff. Imagine if you buffed the fighter instead. Enlarge person alone brings the DPR to 29.25 which is now only 4 rounds to kill without interruption of needing to self buff. I also have the same number of hit points using 5 point buy lower. I can take an additional round of combat if I go for 20 point buy and build up Constitution. A fauchard brings my base DPR up to 30.65 if not enlarged and 40.63 if enlarged.
So I'm weaker, using a greatly inferior weapon, and don't need to buff to do better in combat. I also stayed within the Core Rulebook so I used fewer options too.
Gearless Sorcerer
Samsaran Sorcerer (Tattooed Sorcerer, Wildblooded) 10
NN Medium Humanoid
Init +7; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +14
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Defense
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AC 12, touch 11, flat-footed 11 (+1 armor, +1 Dex)
hp 62 (10d6+10)
Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +7
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Ranged Crossbow, Light +6 (1d8/19-20/x2)
Spell-Like Abilities Acid Splash (3/day), Comprehend Languages (1/day), Deathwatch (1/day), Enhanced Varisian Tattoo (Summon Monster VII) (1/d, Stabilize (1/day)
Sorcerer (Tattooed Sorcerer, Wildblooded) Spells Known (CL 10, +3 melee touch, +6 ranged touch):
5 (4/day) Summon Monster VII
4 (6/day) Wall of Ice (DC 20), Enervation, Dimension Door
3 (7/day) Magic Circle against Evil (DC 19), Stinking Cloud (DC 20), Dispel Magic, Fly (DC 19)
2 (8/day) Haste (DC 18), Mirror Image, Glitterdust, Invisibility, Mount, Communal
1 (8/day) Protection from Evil (DC 17), Mage Armor (DC 18), Identify, Obscuring Mist, Snapdragon Fireworks (DC 17), Vanish
0 (at will) Acid Splash, Daze (DC 16), Read Magic, Ghost Sound (DC 16), Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Mending, Prestidigitation (DC 16), Light, Spark (DC 16)
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Statistics
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Str 7, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 22, Wis 10, Cha 12
Base Atk +5; CMB +3; CMD 14
Feats Augment Summoning, Eschew Materials, Spell Focus (Conjuration), Spell Penetration, Superior Summoning, Varisian Tattoo (Conjuration)
Traits Hermean Paragon (Steaming Sea), Magical Lineage (Snapdragon Fireworks)
Skills Acrobatics -2, Appraise +19, Climb -5, Craft (alchemy) +19, Escape Artist -2, Fly +11, Knowledge (arcana) +21, Knowledge (planes) +19, Perception +14, Ride -2, Sense Motive +2, Spellcraft +21, Stealth +8, Swim -5
Languages Abyssal, Auran, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Infernal, Samsaran, Tien
SQ +4 bonus on initiative checks, Bloodline Tattoos, Create Spell Tattoo (1/day), Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar, Empathic Link with Familiar, Familiar Tattoo, Lifebound, Metamagic Adept (2/day), Mystic Past Life (Sorcerer [Tattooed Sorcerer, Wildblooded]), Sage, Share Spells with Familiar, Speak with Animals, Speak With Familiar
Combat Gear Crossbow, Light, Silken ceremonial armor; Other Gear Acid Flask, Pathfinder's Kit, Spell component pouch
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Special Abilities
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+4 bonus on initiative checks You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm's reach.
Augment Summoning Summoned creatures have +4 to Strength and Constitution.
Bloodline Tattoos (Ex) Bloodline spells are cast at +1 caster level.
Comprehend Languages (1/day) (Sp) With Charisma 11+, cast Comprehend Languages once per day.
Create Spell Tattoo (1/day) (Su) As a standard action, create a spell tattoo on yourself or a willing recipient.
Deathwatch (1/day) (Sp) With Charisma 11+, cast Deathwatch once per day.
Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar (Su) Your familiar can deliver touch spells for you.
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Enhanced Varisian Tattoo (Summon Monster VII) (1/day) (Sp) At 9th level, the tattooed sorcerer can pick any one spell she knows for which she has a Varisian Tattoo feat. This spell must be one that lacks focus components and costly material components. She can now use that spell as a spell-like ability once
Eschew Materials Cast spells without materials, if component cost is 1 gp or less.
Familiar Tattoo (Su) A tattooed sorcerer gains a familiar as an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to her sorcerer level. Her sorcerer levels stack with any wizard
or witch levels she possesses when determining the powers of her familiar—this ability does not allow her to h
Hermean Paragon (Steaming Sea) You gain a +2 trait bonus on Initiative checks.
Lifebound (Ex) +2 to save vs death/neg energy/neg levels and Con checks to stabilize.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Magical Lineage (Snapdragon Fireworks) A chosen spell counts as 1 level lower when metamagic feats are applied to it.
Metamagic Adept (2/day) (Ex) Apply a metamagic feat 2/day without increasing the casting time.
Mystic Past Life (Sorcerer [Tattooed Sorcerer, Wildblooded]) You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. You add a number of spells equal to 1 + your spellcasting class’s key ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, and so on). The spells must be the
Sage When a spell level is increased by a metamagic feat, it gains +1 DC.
Share Spells with Familiar The wizard may cast a spell with a target of "You" on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast).
Speak with Animals (Ex) Your familiar can communicate with similar animals to itself.
Speak With Familiar (Ex) You can communicate verbally with your familiar.
Spell Focus (Conjuration) Spells from one school of magic have +1 to their save DC.
Spell Penetration +2 to caster levels checks to overcome spell resistance.
Stabilize (1/day) (Sp) With Charisma 11+, cast Stabilize once per day.
Superior Summoning When summoning more than one creature, summon an extra one
Varisian Tattoo (Conjuration) Spells from chosen school gain +1 caster level.
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Arcane Familiar
Scorpion, Greensting
NN Tiny Magical Beast ((vermin))
Init +3; Senses Darkvision; Perception +14
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Defense
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AC 23, touch 15, flat-footed 20 (+3 Dex, +2 size, +8 natural)
hp 31 (1d8)
Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +7
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Sting (Scorpion, Greensting) +10 (1d2-4/x2)
Space 2.5 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
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Statistics
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Str 3, Dex 16, Con 10, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 2
Base Atk +5; CMB +6; CMD 12 (20 vs. Trip)
Feats Weapon Finesse
Skills Appraise +10, Climb +7, Fly +17, Perception +14, Spellcraft +10, Stealth +25, Swim +3
Languages
SQ Improved Evasion, Poison
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Special Abilities
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Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Improved Evasion (Ex) No damage on successful reflex save; half on failed save.
Poison (Ex) Sting - injury; save Fort DC 10; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect sickened for 1 round; cure 1 save.
Useful while leveling, though you would be changing up your spell selection as you went up, but useful nonetheless. And at 10 you can cast Summon Monster VII, summon in a Tyrannosaurus and win. You can do this 4 times a day, I'd call that being pretty useful.
Some "Niche" things you can catch by preparing the right spells the next day, but not always. For example, things like Phase Spiders or Xill, that use material/ethereal shifting to do hit&run attacks or even drag back a PC to the ethereal plane. That's when you need your Niche object to save your bacon. Otherwise you're stuck doing really complicated Rule-Fu with Ready Actions to even have a chance of fighting back.
That is true, assuming that you have time. This is where casters can certainly shine. They are able to adjust their abilities more, given the time to do so. I won't ever deny that. The more gear they have, the better they can adapt too. Without gear, adaptation is much harder.
Bob, note however that in the other thread a caster buffing the fighter was not a valid option (at least not for the Op).
I think the same happens here, the bard needing someon to buff is like the fighter needing someono to cast him a buff spell.
The statement that most bother me is that there is some classes that hardly need other classes, gear etc, and that thas classes shine in almost every situation at every time (wihotut gear, against all CR equivalent enemies, without the help of the party...)
I'm not referencing the other thread because this is something I've seen mentioned for years. The other thread may have prompted me to post something but I intentionally didn't want to limit some classes and their options. I wanted to make sure that people can come up with their own ideas on how their builds would contribute.
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Summoner, monk, sorcerer and druids with shapeshift can all work with NO gear, not just no magic. I see that as a plus to the class, a hidden benefit that might be very situation but when you need to blend in with the peasants and not have your toys these classes don't really suffer like many others
** spoiler omitted **...
You wrote that you are using summon monster VIII but you only have summon monster VII listed (which is cheesy but within the RAW so it's legit for this discussion).
Can your summoned creatures have all four templates at once?
In case anyone is wondering what that T-Rex would look like:
Unnamed Hero
Dinosaur, Tyrannosaurus
NN Gargantuan Animal
Init +5; Senses Darkvision, Low-Light Vision, Scent; Perception +37
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Defense
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AC 21, touch 7, flat-footed 20 (+1 Dex, -4 size, +14 natural)
hp 171 (18d8+90)
Fort +16, Ref +12, Will +10
DR 10/chaotic, 10/evil, 10/good, 10/lawful; Resist acid 15, cold 15, electricity 15, fire 15; SR 18
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Melee Powerful Bite (Dinosaur, Tyrannosaurus) +21 (4d6+24/19-20/x2)
Space 20 ft.; Reach 20 ft.
Special Attacks Grab, Smite Chaos (1/day), Smite Evil (1/day), Smite Good (1/day), Smite Law (1/day), Swallow Whole (2d8+11, AC 17, 17 HP)
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Statistics
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Str 34, Dex 13, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
Base Atk +13; CMB +29 (+33 Grappling); CMD 40
Feats Bleeding Critical, Critical Focus, Diehard, Endurance, Improved Critical (Bite), Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Run, Skill Focus (Perception)
Skills Fly -5, Perception +37, Stealth -11
Languages
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Smite Chaos (1/day) (Su) - 0/1
Smite Evil (1/day) (Su) - 0/1
Smite Good (1/day) (Su) - 0/1
Smite Law (1/day) (Su) - 0/1
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Special Abilities
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Bleeding Critical Critical Hits deal 2d6 bleed damage.
Critical Focus +4 to confirm critical hits.
Damage Reduction (10/chaotic) You have Damage Reduction against all except Chaotic attacks.
Damage Reduction (10/evil) You have Damage Reduction against all except Evil attacks.
Damage Reduction (10/good) You have Damage Reduction against all except Good attacks.
Damage Reduction (10/lawful) You have Damage Reduction against all except Lawful attacks.
Damage Resistance, Acid (15) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Acid attacks.
Damage Resistance, Cold (15) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Cold attacks.
Damage Resistance, Electricity (15) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Damage Resistance, Fire (15) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Fire attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Diehard You are stable and can choose how to act when at -1 to -9 HP.
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Grab (Gargantuan) (Ex) You can start a grapple as a free action if you hit with the designated weapon.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Run You run faster than normal.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.
Smite Chaos (1/day) (Su) +0 to hit, +18 to damage.
Smite Evil (1/day) (Su) +0 to hit, +18 to damage.
Smite Good (1/day) (Su) +0 to hit, +18 to damage.
Smite Law (1/day) (Su) +0 to hit, +18 to damage.
Spell Resistance (18) You have Spell Resistance.
Swallow Whole (2d8+11, AC 17, 17 HP) (Ex) You can swallow smaller targets whole.
It's one nasty beast. Several of them means that the sorcerer probably do fine if he's getting into melee. Rocs would be appropriate for flying combat so he's certainly got combat dealt with.
How well would this character survive until he gets up to level 10? I know you would swap out spells but you aren't swapping out many of them and I was wondering which ones you would have before the swap.
Summoner, monk, sorcerer and druids with shapeshift can all work with NO gear, not just no magic. I see that as a plus to the class, a hidden benefit that might be very situation but when you need to blend in with the peasants and not have your toys these classes don't really suffer like many others
Can they? I'm asking for people to show me instead of just making claims. The claim is that casters are not gear dependent. I want to see the ones that aren't. For the record, Berenzen pulled out all the stops and may have given at least one exceptional build that is good (if I say "great" then I can't have my narrative!) without gear.
** spoiler omitted **...You wrote that you are using summon monster VIII but you only have summon monster VII listed (which is cheesy but within the RAW so it's legit for this discussion).
Can your summoned creatures have all four templates at once?
In case anyone is wondering what that T-Rex would look like:
** spoiler omitted **...
It was a mistake, it's been changed- but you can still get 1 out which is still pretty nasty for challenges you'll be facing at 10, and no your creature can't have all four templates.
As for surviving, the hardest part would be until you got your second level spells, with you can get Enlarge Person, and swap it out later. Once you get level 2 spells, you can basically win fights with various save-or-sucks like glitterdust.
I know I said I was going to post a full fighter build that wasn't gear dependent but after posting that level 10 build that uses a dagger, I don't think it's going to be necessary. Some things, like DR and personal defenses are going to be a problem but they are easily dealt with by adding only a small amount of gear, much like the casters only need a small amount of gear to deal with their problems (like maintaining versatility or affecting the enemy).
I'm also working on a ton of builds for something else far more interesting and they are taking a lot of my time.
** spoiler omitted **...You wrote that you are using summon monster VIII but you only have summon monster VII listed (which is cheesy but within the RAW so it's legit for this discussion).
Can your summoned creatures have all four templates at once?
In case anyone is wondering what that T-Rex would look like:
** spoiler omitted **...
It was a mistake, it's been changed- but you can still get 1 out which is still pretty nasty for challenges you'll be facing at 10, and no your creature can't have all four templates.
As for surviving, the hardest part would be until you got your second level spells, with you can get Enlarge Person, and swap it out later. Once you get level 2 spells, you can basically win fights with various save-or-sucks like glitterdust.
Even a single templated T-Rex would be one nasty beast. You certainly came to show how it can be done. I don't know how well it would work in an actual game but this build meets all the criteria and then a little extra. Well done!
Your DPR for CR 9 creatures: 15.26. You can take out the creature in 7 to 8 rounds before you buff but power attacking.
One 9th level character should not be compared to a CR9 monster - that's for a full party. For a full 4 PC party, 4 CR5 monsters are an average encounter. Thus, for one PC, a CR5 monster is an average encounter and a CR9 monster is literally out of the charts (a CR8 monster is an "epic" encounter).