Your DPR for CR 9 creatures: 15.26. You can take out the creature in 7 to 8 rounds before you buff but power attacking.One 9th level character should not be compared to a CR9 monster - that's for a full party. For a full 4 PC party, 4 CR5 monsters are an average encounter. Thus, for one PC, a CR5 monster is an average encounter and a CR9 monster is literally out of the charts (a CR8 monster is an "epic" encounter).
The party (I always assume a party, my fault for not making that clear) would be against a CR 9 opponent though and it is clear that the fighter without magical gear is better at fighting than the oracle without magical gear. It doesn't matter if I do the comparison at CR 5 or 9. The fighter will still put out more damage consistently than the oracle presented.
The party (I always assume a party, my fault for not making that clear) would be against a CR 9 opponent though and it is clear that the fighter without magical gear is better at fighting than the oracle without magical gear. It doesn't matter if I do the comparison at CR 5 or 9. The fighter will still put out more damage consistently than the oracle presented.Your DPR for CR 9 creatures: 15.26. You can take out the creature in 7 to 8 rounds before you buff but power attacking.One 9th level character should not be compared to a CR9 monster - that's for a full party. For a full 4 PC party, 4 CR5 monsters are an average encounter. Thus, for one PC, a CR5 monster is an average encounter and a CR9 monster is literally out of the charts (a CR8 monster is an "epic" encounter).
But as part of a party it becomes faulty in not including the availability of buffs. Some characters have much more to gain from certain buffs than others. So it might be worth looking at "what would happen if this character got Haste and Magic Weapon from a friendly wizard?" like it is done in the DPR Olympics.
Or, how well does this character work if the enemy has been debuffed with say Calcific Touch or Slow or someone has tripped it? What happens if you gain flanking bonus?
Not saying comparision is useless, just trying to hash out the limitations of a comparision such as this.
EDIT: Just to clarify, I support comparing as part of a party rather than solo. However, one must consider what the rest of the party would be.
|
A level 9 fighter without magical gear going solo against incorporeal undead is still pretty much done for.
Fighters certainly do well in DPR comparisons against opponents without peculiar defenses or attacks you need to deal with; they're extremely good against big animals. But if your opponent isn't very straightforward, you probably need the kind of versatility that fighters have a hard time with.
Now, casters have that versatility, but are also squishier, so while they may have the right tools, the question is whether they'll live long enough to use them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The party (I always assume a party, my fault for not making that clear) would be against a CR 9 opponent though and it is clear that the fighter without magical gear is better at fighting than the oracle without magical gear. It doesn't matter if I do the comparison at CR 5 or 9. The fighter will still put out more damage consistently than the oracle presented.Your DPR for CR 9 creatures: 15.26. You can take out the creature in 7 to 8 rounds before you buff but power attacking.One 9th level character should not be compared to a CR9 monster - that's for a full party. For a full 4 PC party, 4 CR5 monsters are an average encounter. Thus, for one PC, a CR5 monster is an average encounter and a CR9 monster is literally out of the charts (a CR8 monster is an "epic" encounter).But as part of a party it becomes faulty in not including the availability of buffs. Some characters have much more to gain from certain buffs than others. So it might be worth looking at "what would happen if this character got Haste and Magic Weapon from a friendly wizard?" like it is done in the DPR Olympics.
Or, how well does this character work if the enemy has been debuffed with say Calcific Touch or Slow or someone has tripped it? What happens if you gain flanking bonus?
Not saying comparision is useless, just trying to hash out the limitations of a comparision such as this.
EDIT: Just to clarify, I support comparing as part of a party rather than solo. However, one must consider what the rest of the party would be.
That's why I mentioned that casting enlarge person on the fighter would be a better choice than the oracle self-buffing and that was the point of the math comparing the two characters. Buffing the fighter is preferable to buffing the example oracle (or nearly any self-buffing character) because of the time it takes to buff. Casting a spell on the fighter allows the party to take advantage of the spell immediately instead of waiting a round.
A level 9 fighter without magical gear going solo against incorporeal undead is still pretty much done for.
Fighters certainly do well in DPR comparisons against opponents without peculiar defenses or attacks you need to deal with; they're extremely good against big animals. But if your opponent isn't very straightforward, you probably need the kind of versatility that fighters have a hard time with.
Now, casters have that versatility, but are also squishier, so while they may have the right tools, the question is whether they'll live long enough to use them.
There is no denying that anyone without magic will have a hard time dealing with incorporeal creatures. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any non-magical solutions. There may be some, but it's early and I don't feel like digging around for them.
I am not convinced (even with the one build that filled the criteria) that casters in general are less gear dependent than non-casters. I would like to see more characters that are less cheesy (taking spells from other classes is cheesy but did meet the goals). I would love to see a more standard build pull it off.
|
|
Well, casters still need gear to get bonuses and such up to the point where they're strong enough to face level-appropriate enemies, so they're certainly not gear-independent. A druid without any stat-boosters is about as strong as a druid a couple of levels lower.
But casters ARE less dependent on their gear for versatility and handling non-standard challenges. The druid doesn't need gear to handle most problems that can crop up in the wilderness for example. Not so much in the city maybe, but he's pretty versatile without gear in the big outdoors.
So caster/noncaster gear dependence is slanted towards different problems, that's not the same as one class being independent and the other one being dependent; it's not that black and white.
Well, casters still need gear to get bonuses and such up to the point where they're strong enough to face level-appropriate enemies, so they're certainly not gear-independent. A druid without any stat-boosters is about as strong as a druid a couple of levels lower.
But casters ARE less dependent on their gear for versatility and handling non-standard challenges. The druid doesn't need gear to handle most problems that can crop up in the wilderness for example. Not so much in the city maybe, but he's pretty versatile without gear in the big outdoors.
So caster/noncaster gear dependence is slanted towards different problems, that's not the same as one class being independent and the other one being dependent; it's not that black and white.
A druid starts running into problems against incorporeal creatures without gear if he doesn't have enough of the right spells prepared, just like any other character.
If the fighter's biggest problem is facing incorporeal creatures, then a simple +1 weapon or two solves that. He can deal enough damage to deal with damage reduction.
Personally, I know that there are degrees of dependence and those shift based on encounter. The claim that is commonly made is that casters are not gear dependent and non-casters are (which implies in all or most situations). The claim is one of extremes and that is what I would like to see those who make the claim address. It's just like many other claims of extremes, when put to the test, it fails.
|
|
Yeah, I don't believe it's all that extreme as people make it out to be. Still, different classes do depend differently on gear.
I'm about to kick off a campaign with (initially) only stone-age level technology and very low population density. My players are highly interested in playing druids for some reason...
Here is a cleric evangelist build at level 5 and level 10. I essentially played this one (with magic gear, though) through curse of the crimson throne.
I found him to be quite survivable, and the sermonic performace really is no wasted action since it also boosts his party and summons - which he could gain with a standard action if they were azaata. I had long pondered that feat, but it was definitely worth it, the azaata are fantastic, especially when summoned in masses :-)
I did not add gear like backpacks, ropes, cauldrons, healers kits etc. here, but I usually stack those.
Cleric Evangelist 10
Human Cleric (Evangelist) 10
NG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +8
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 16, touch 10, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor)
hp 73 (10d8+20)
Fort +9, Ref +3, Will +11
Defensive Abilities Freedom's Call (10 rounds/day)
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Masterwork Dagger +10/+5 (1d4+2/19-20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Longspear +10/+5 (1d8+3/x3) and
. . Masterwork Morningstar +10/+5 (1d8+2/x2) and
. . Masterwork Starknife +10/+5 (1d4+2/x3)
Ranged Masterwork Crossbow, Light +8/+3 (1d8/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks Sermonic Performance (move action) (24 rounds/day), Sermonic Performance: Counterspell, Sermonic Performance: Fascinate (DC 17), Sermonic Performance: Inspire Courage +2, Sermonic Performance: Inspire Greatness +1
Cleric (Evangelist) Spells Prepared (CL 10, 9 melee touch, 7 ranged touch):
5 (2/day) Flame Strike (DC 19), Summon Monster V, Plane Shift (DC 19)
4 (4/day) Blessing of Fervor (DC 18), Divine Power, Freedom of Movement (DC 18), Dimensional Anchor, Summon Monster IV
3 (4/day) Invisibility Purge, Dispel Magic, Remove Curse (DC 17), Magic Circle against Evil (DC 17), Resist Energy, Communal
2 (5/day) Delay Poison (DC 16), Restoration, Lesser (DC 16), Resist Energy (DC 16), Align Weapon (DC 16), Grace, Remove Paralysis (DC 16)
1 (5/day) Shield of Faith (DC 15), Divine Favor, Magic Weapon (DC 15), Protection from Evil (DC 15), Bless, Sanctuary (DC 15)
0 (at will) Detect Poison, Read Magic, Light, Detect Magic
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 14
Base Atk +7; CMB +9; CMD 19
Feats Heighten Spell, Preferred Spell (Blessing of Fervor), Preferred Spell (Cure Light Wounds), Reach Spell, Sacred Summons, Selective Channeling
Traits Magical Lineage (Cure Light Wounds), Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics -2, Appraise +4, Climb +0, Diplomacy +6, Escape Artist -2, Fly -2, Heal +10, Knowledge (nature) +1, Knowledge (planes) +8, Knowledge (religion) +13, Perception +8, Perform (oratory) +7, Ride -2, Sense Motive +10, Spellcraft +12, Stealth -2, Survival +5, Swim +0
Languages Common
SQ Aura, Cleric (Evangelist) Domain: Freedom, Cleric Channel Positive Energy 3d6 (5/day) (DC 17), Liberty's Blessing (7/day), Public Speaker (-12 DC to hear), Spontaneous Casting
Combat Gear Bolts, Crossbow (20), Elven Chain, Masterwork Crossbow, Light, Masterwork Dagger, Masterwork Longspear, Masterwork Morningstar, Masterwork Starknife;
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Aura (Ex) The Cleric has an aura corresponding to his deity's alignment.
Cleric (Evangelist) Domain: Freedom Associated Domain: Liberation
Cleric Channel Positive Energy 3d6 (5/day) (DC 17) (Su) A good cleric can channel positive energy to heal the living and injure the undead; an evil cleric can channel negative energy to injure the living and heal the undead.
Freedom's Call (10 rounds/day) (Su) 30'r aura suppresses many conditions.
Heighten Spell Increases spell level to effective level desired.
Liberty's Blessing (7/day) (Su) Allow target to re-attempt a save.
Magical Lineage (Cure Light Wounds) A chosen spell counts as 1 level lower when metamagic feats are applied to it.
Preferred Spell (Blessing of Fervor) The chosen spell may be cast spontaneously, and metamagic can be added to the spell without increasing its casting time.
Preferred Spell (Cure Light Wounds) The chosen spell may be cast spontaneously, and metamagic can be added to the spell without increasing its casting time.
Public Speaker (-12 DC to hear) An evangelist gains Perform as a class skill. In addition, she is trained to project her voice with great skill and effect; the DC to hear her speak in difficult conditions is reduced by an amount equal to her class level plus her Charisma modifier (
Reach Spell You can cast a spell with a range of touch, close, or medium as one range category higher.
Sacred Summons Summon monsters whose alignment subtype matches yours as a standard action
Selective Channeling Exclude targets from the area of your Channel Energy.
Sermonic Performance (move action) (24 rounds/day) An evangelist gains the ability to deliver a select number of supernatural and spell-like performances through the force and power of her divinely inspired preaching and exhortation. This ability is similar in all respects to bardic performance as us
Sermonic Performance: Counterspell (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sound.
Sermonic Performance: Fascinate (DC 17) (Su) One or more creatures becomes fascinated with you.
Sermonic Performance: Inspire Courage +2 (Su) Morale bonus on some saving throws, attack and damage rolls.
Sermonic Performance: Inspire Greatness +1 (Su) Grants allies 2 bonus hit dice, +2 to attacks and +1 to fort saves.
Spontaneous Casting An evangelist does not gain the ability to spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells by sacrificing prepared spells. However, an evangelist can spontaneously cast the following spells by sacrificing a prepared spell of the noted level or above:
Cleric Evangelist 5
Human Cleric (Evangelist) 5
NG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +7
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 16, touch 10, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor)
hp 38 (5d8+10)
Fort +6, Ref +1, Will +7
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Masterwork Dagger +6 (1d4+2/19-20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Longspear +6 (1d8+3/x3) and
. . Masterwork Morningstar +6 (1d8+2/x2) and
. . Masterwork Starknife +6 (1d4+2/x3)
Ranged Masterwork Crossbow, Light +4 (1d8/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks Sermonic Performance (standard action) (14 rounds/, Sermonic Performance: Counterspell, Sermonic Performance: Fascinate (DC 14), Sermonic Performance: Inspire Courage +2
Cleric (Evangelist) Spells Prepared (CL 5, 5 melee touch, 3 ranged touch):
3 (2/day) Invisibility Purge, Dispel Magic, Remove Curse (DC 16)
2 (3/day) Delay Poison (DC 15), Restoration, Lesser (DC 15), Grace, Remove Paralysis (DC 15)
1 (4/day) Divine Favor, Magic Weapon (DC 14), Protection from Evil (DC 14), Bless, Sanctuary (DC 14)
0 (at will) Detect Poison, Read Magic, Light, Detect Magic
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 17, Cha 14
Base Atk +3; CMB +5; CMD 15
Feats Heighten Spell, Preferred Spell (Cure Light Wounds), Reach Spell, Selective Channeling
Traits Magical Lineage (Cure Light Wounds), Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics -2, Climb +0, Diplomacy +6, Escape Artist -2, Fly -2, Heal +9, Knowledge (nature) +1, Knowledge (religion) +7, Perception +7, Perform (oratory) +6, Ride -2, Sense Motive +7, Spellcraft +7, Stealth -2, Survival +4, Swim +0
Languages Common
SQ Aura, Cleric (Evangelist) Domain: Freedom, Cleric Channel Positive Energy 2d6 (5/day) (DC 14), Liberty's Blessing (6/day), Public Speaker (-7 DC to hear), Spontaneous Casting
Combat Gear Elven Chain, Masterwork Crossbow, Light, Masterwork Dagger, Masterwork Longspear, Masterwork Morningstar, Masterwork Starknife;
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Aura (Ex) The Cleric has an aura corresponding to his deity's alignment.
Cleric (Evangelist) Domain: Freedom Associated Domain: Liberation
Cleric Channel Positive Energy 2d6 (5/day) (DC 14) (Su) A good cleric can channel positive energy to heal the living and injure the undead; an evil cleric can channel negative energy to injure the living and heal the undead.
Heighten Spell Increases spell level to effective level desired.
Liberty's Blessing (6/day) (Su) Allow target to re-attempt a save.
Magical Lineage (Cure Light Wounds) A chosen spell counts as 1 level lower when metamagic feats are applied to it.
Preferred Spell (Cure Light Wounds) The chosen spell may be cast spontaneously, and metamagic can be added to the spell without increasing its casting time.
Public Speaker (-7 DC to hear) An evangelist gains Perform as a class skill. In addition, she is trained to project her voice with great skill and effect; the DC to hear her speak in difficult conditions is reduced by an amount equal to her class level plus her Charisma modifier (
Reach Spell You can cast a spell with a range of touch, close, or medium as one range category higher.
Selective Channeling Exclude targets from the area of your Channel Energy.
Sermonic Performance (standard action) (14 rounds/day) An evangelist gains the ability to deliver a select number of supernatural and spell-like performances through the force and power of her divinely inspired preaching and exhortation. This ability is similar in all respects to bardic performance as us
Sermonic Performance: Counterspell (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sound.
Sermonic Performance: Fascinate (DC 14) (Su) One or more creatures becomes fascinated with you.
Sermonic Performance: Inspire Courage +2 (Su) Morale bonus on some saving throws, attack and damage rolls.
Spontaneous Casting An evangelist does not gain the ability to spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells by sacrificing prepared spells. However, an evangelist can spontaneously cast the following spells by sacrificing a prepared spell of the noted level or above:
I often used the preferred spell ability to convert on the fly, particularly a reached cure light wounds spell at the cost of a level 1 spell.
A real game winner is freedom's call: you and your party will basically not be grappled anymore :-)
His deity is Desna, feat mentiones is sacred summons which is keyed to deity's alignment through aura.
I'll see if I can follow up with bard builds tomorrow :-)
What I'm seeing is that either very specialized builds or buffers are the ones that are the least gear dependent of the casters. Barring specialized builds, it looks like the buffing casters are the best choices. This means that they need someone to buff though. That's all fine and dandy. It brings us back to the beginning where Lemmy was talking about party dynamics.
This is pretty much what I was expecting. I wonder if anyone can make the "god wizard" that isn't gear dependent.
God wizard are still party dependend, much like a buffer . I think you mean auto-win wizards.What I'm seeing is that either very specialized builds or buffers are the ones that are the least gear dependent of the casters. Barring specialized builds, it looks like the buffing casters are the best choices. This means that they need someone to buff though. That's all fine and dandy. It brings us back to the beginning where Lemmy was talking about party dynamics.
This is pretty much what I was expecting. I wonder if anyone can make the "god wizard" that isn't gear dependent.
Sorry, I do mean auto-win.
You are mistaken sir, take note at the top. though it's a bit hidden, he does state this is a lvl 10 character. And thus does get his 5th lvl spells.
** spoiler omitted **
To save some screen space I put the build in spoilers.
Out of curiosity, which curse did you choose?
You're short four 1st-level spells and one 2nd-level spell. You can't cast any 5th level spells (and you would have one too many anyway).
Your DPR for CR 9 creatures: 15.26. You can take out the creature in 7 to 8 rounds before you buff but power attacking.
Buffing will certainly change all of that but will you be able to buff enough fast enough? How many rounds do you need? You have at least two spells chosen for buffs. Let's assume you don't get to attack until round 3. Now your DPR is 22.14 which means you need about 5 rounds which is pretty much means not much...
Take a look at his stats. He does not have a high enough score for level 5 spells.
Other then spells in the spellbook, what gear do you think that a wizard actually needs?
That's what I'm trying to find out. Remember that every spell beyond the two you get for free is technically gear (you have to buy the spell somehow). Every scroll and wand you use to be able to cast more is gear. Every headband to boost your Intelligence is gear. I have never seen a discussion about the superiority of casters that hasn't brought up scrolls and wands while simultaneously saying that non-casters are gear dependent.
A 5th level wizard with 18 intelligence and a specialist school gets 5 level 1 spells, 4 level 2 spells, and 3 level 3 spells a day (with the bonus spells from int and the bonus spells from the specialist). He also gets some extra abilities from his school to fill in. I think that's already enough to participate meaningfully in 4 encounters a day. You do have to ration your spells pretty carefully, but basically you get 1 level 3 spell and a couple of level 1 lower spells for 3 of the encounters, and 4 level 2 spells for the other one. That's just an average, and you want to use less if you can for easier ones, but it should be pleanty.
So, is 1 level 3 spell + 2 level 1 spells, or 4 level 2 spells, enough to be an effective party member? I think it is. Let's take a look at blasting; it has a bad name, but it can be a decent option at this level, and it's easier to compare to other classes. Round one you throw a fireball that hits 3 enemy targets is 5d6 damage to each one (about 17 damage on average) or half if they make reflex saves; so if 1/3 of them make their saves, it does 43 damage total. Then you fire 2 magic missile spells with your 2 level 1 slots; 5d4 damage each at this level, no saves, never miss, and you can fire it into meele without risk. That's 12.5 damage on average, so another 25 damage. At this point, in 3 rounds, you've done 68 points of damage; with the odds of missing and such, it would probably take the fighter 8 rounds to do that much damage. If you targeted your magic missiles in an intelligent way, focusing on the guys that are badly hurt, and helping your fighter finished off the wounded, you've probably finished off at least one monster, nearly killed a second one, and the third one has lost about a third of his life (that's the one who made the saving throw against the fireball, and you intelligently didn't waste magic missiles on him). Basically you just wiped out about half of the encounter singlehandedly in just 3 rounds with those 3 spells. You will be less useful for the rest of the encounter, since you're saving the rest of your spells for later, but the fighter can probably take it from here now that he's taking less hits per round, and you can still help in smaller ways (acid darts from your conjurer specialty, cantrips, or even just firing your crossbow).
Incorrect on the blasting. You don't get to add all the damage up to show how much you do. You get to determine the damage per opponent. Your fireball does not deal 43 damage total. That's misleading. The non-caster is dealing plenty of damage without using resources other than some hit points (which have plenty of ways to be replenished) and possibly some ammunition (which is also easily replenished). Remember that you needed to use half of your most powerful spells to deal this damage. The non-caster has not needed to use his most powerful abilities to do that. Honestly, if you can't build a fighter that can deal 68 points of damage in 5 rounds by level 2, you probably shouldn't be playing a fighter anyway. 18 Strength and a longsword is already dealing 8.5 points per hit. Add in power attack and wield it 2-handed and you're up to 13.5 per hit (+4 to hit). That's only at level 2. By level 5, not even using a magic weapon, the fighter is at 19.5 per hit (+9 to hit). It's so easy getting bonuses to hit, I'm not worried about the fighter hitting. So in both cases, without any help, the fighter would take out the enemy in roughly the same amount of time but he doesn't have to stop there. If he has hit points, he can fight on.
Or, getting away from blasting, 1 third level spell like haste, or slow, or summon monster III, and then a few low level support spells (like grease, or enlarge) can easily turn an encounter in your party's favor.
Summon monster takes a round to cast, haste needs allies, slow has a saving throw, etc. In other words, we're back to buffing and debuffing which means you're going to want someone to fight for you. All three spells you mention are level 3 which is all three of your 5th level character's slots used up in a single combat and needing three rounds to not do anything to take out the enemy yet (summon monster might depending on when you cast it).
Scrolls and wands and all that are useful crutches, and are really handy when the unexpected comes up or if you just run out of juice, but you don't really need them to be a very effective party member, so long as you don't try to show off and do everything yourself and pace yourself a bit. Just so long as you don't have to solo combats or anything; a wizard of this level *can* do that, with a little preparation and some luck (and mirror image), but not more then once or twice a day without running out of spells.
They are absolutely useful and I won't ever deny that. I would never want to play a caster without those. However, the moment someone says that they can just use scrolls and wands, they are now admitting that the casters are gear dependent.
Since I also don't expect any class to be able to solo encounters, why would it be bad for the casters to buff the non-casters instead of summoning monsters to buff? Summoning takes more time and is less effective most of the time.
Technically not all spells past level 1 are gear for wizards, every level past 1st they gain 2 spells per level. Depending on what the caster is doing, proper spell selection could allow for more than enough spell variation to be effective without resorting to scrolls to learn more.
Technically not all spells past level 1 are gear for wizards, every level past 1st they gain 2 spells per level. Depending on what the caster is doing, proper spell selection could allow for more than enough spell variation to be effective without resorting to scrolls to learn more.
Right, that's why I said anything beyond the two bonus ones are gear.
I would like to see what a proper selection of spells would be. Note that clerics and druids are not subject to this portion of the questioning because they have access to all the spells on their list when preparing for the day.
The point of this thread is to not theorycraft. It is to ask that people actually show how their theories are realities. I have been in too many discussions with people who make claims and then refuse to actually back them up with concrete evidence. This thread is asking for that evidence. So far, there has been one build that truly met the criteria but I doubt it should be considered the norm. Bards, or any buffing characters for that matter, don't really need gear. They need companions. That just means that the non-casters need the buffing companions too though. That's perfectly ok in my book.
I'm trying to address a claim made by others who say that non-casters are gear dependent and casters are not. The criteria for a build is laid out in the first post. Non-magical gear is ok, magical is not.
I'm a firm believer in the fact that one person's experience with the game is not the same as another's. Everything is too dependent on the players and GM. Even if everyone is using the same rules applied in the same way, some groups will see things differently simply because of which enemies the GM decides to use. If the party is fighting a lot of creatures with supernatural abilities, spell-like abilities, and can be incorporeal, they will see a different set of needs than a group that doesn't see those.
I believe that the problem is one of perception and not one of an inherent problem with the game.
What I'm seeing is that either very specialized builds or buffers are the ones that are the least gear dependent of the casters. Barring specialized builds, it looks like the buffing casters are the best choices. This means that they need someone to buff though. That's all fine and dandy. It brings us back to the beginning where Lemmy was talking about party dynamics.
...
Is that a feedback to the builds I provided? The cleric can buff himself, or his summons, but it's not strictly necessary. It is quite self-sufficient, but naturally profits from the presence of a party even more than the standard cleric. Even with the very basic gear included he can manage quite well IMO.
Or am I missing something here? :-)
What I'm seeing is that either very specialized builds or buffers are the ones that are the least gear dependent of the casters. Barring specialized builds, it looks like the buffing casters are the best choices. This means that they need someone to buff though. That's all fine and dandy. It brings us back to the beginning where Lemmy was talking about party dynamics.
...Is that a feedback to the builds I provided? The cleric can buff himself, or his summons, but it's not strictly necessary. It is quite self-sufficient, but naturally profits from the presence of a party even more than the standard cleric. Even with the very basic gear included he can manage quite well IMO.
Or am I missing something here? :-)
It's actually meant to be positive feedback. You did build a character that fits the bill. Buffing is the best way to be non-gear dependent with summoning being a second best option. I say it's second best because summoned creatures are very often weaker and less permanent than player characters. If you have to summon then buff, you are taking twice as many actions to get almost to where you could have been had the party just had a non-caster already there and ready to go.
From what I'm seeing so far, the best way to be less gear dependent is to be more party dependent. That's pretty much the same argument that is made against non-casters. If they don't rely on their gear, they are relying on the party to buff them in some way.
What I'm seeing is that either very specialized builds or buffers are the ones that are the least gear dependent of the casters. Barring specialized builds, it looks like the buffing casters are the best choices. This means that they need someone to buff though. That's all fine and dandy. It brings us back to the beginning where Lemmy was talking about party dynamics.
...Is that a feedback to the builds I provided? The cleric can buff himself, or his summons, but it's not strictly necessary. It is quite self-sufficient, but naturally profits from the presence of a party even more than the standard cleric. Even with the very basic gear included he can manage quite well IMO.
Or am I missing something here? :-)
It's actually meant to be positive feedback. You did build a character that fits the bill. Buffing is the best way to be non-gear dependent with summoning being a second best option. I say it's second best because summoned creatures are very often weaker and less permanent than player characters. If you have to summon then buff, you are taking twice as many actions to get almost to where you could have been had the party just had a non-caster already there and ready to go.
From what I'm seeing so far, the best way to be less gear dependent is to be more party dependent. That's pretty much the same argument that is made against non-casters. If they don't rely on their gear, they are relying on the party to buff them in some way.
Ah, OK :-)
Generally I agree with you. Regarding summoning, in this instance one of the key things about this build is the sacred summons feat which lets summon with a standard action, then buff myself and the azaata as a move action. The build gets stronger at 11th level when summon monster VI allows to summon up to 3 azaatas instead, and it rocks at level 13 where the buffing is only a swift action.
Spontaneously casting command, enthrall, tongues, suggestion or greater command is quite nice and offers a lot of options to change battles or avoid them entirely, btw - a nice feature of this archetype :-)
But I guess you have seen that already :-)
Here is a monk build. Monks are quite self-sufficient and capable of getting along on their own. This one can (to a certain degree) heal himself, sneak away, run away - for example, after stunning -, spot even invisible enemies relatively reliably and deflect some attacks while gaining higher AC as well (fighting defensively).
Standard Monk
Half-Orc Monk 10
LN Medium Humanoid (orc)
Init +4; Senses Darkvision; Perception +17
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 19, touch 19, flat-footed 16 (+2 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 83 (10d8+20)
Fort +9, Ref +9, Will +11
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Improved Evasion; Immune disease
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 60 ft.
Melee Masterwork Cold Iron Brass Knuckles +10/+5 (1d3+2/x2) and
. . Masterwork Kama +10/+5 (1d6+2/x2) and
. . Masterwork Silver Brass Knuckles +10/+5 (1d3+2/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +9/+4 (1d10+2/x2)
Ranged Shuriken +9/+4 (1d2+2/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +8/+8/+3/+3, Ki Strike, Lawful, Ki Strike, Magic
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 10
Base Atk +7; CMB +12; CMD 28
Feats Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Deadly Aim -2/+4, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Medusa's Wrath, Mobility, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Power Attack -2/+4, Stunning Fist (10/day) (DC 19)
Traits Highlander (hills or mountains), Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +15, Climb +6, Escape Artist +6, Intimidate +6, Knowledge (history) +4, Knowledge (nature) +1, Knowledge (religion) +4, Perception +17, Ride +6, Sense Motive +8, Stealth +16, Survival +5, Swim +6 Modifiers Highlander (hills or mountains)
Languages Common, Orc
SQ AC Bonus +6, Fast Movement (+30'), High Jump (+10/+30 with Ki point), Ki Defense, Ki Pool, Maneuver Training, Orc Ferocity (1/day), Purity of Body, Slow Fall 50', Still Mind, Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken), Unarmed Strike (1d10), Wholeness of Body (10 HP/use)
Combat Gear Masterwork Cold Iron Brass Knuckles (2), Masterwork Kama (2), Masterwork Silver Brass Knuckles (2), Shuriken (50);
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
AC Bonus +6 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Crane Riposte When you deflect an attack, you may make an attack of opportunity
Crane Style Take -2 penalty when fighting defensively
Crane Wing May deflect one attack per round while fighting defensively or using total defense
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Deflect Arrows Deflect an incoming arrow once per round.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+30') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +8/+8/+3/+3 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
High Jump (+10/+30 with Ki point) (Ex) +10 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Highlander (hills or mountains) +1 to Stealth checks, Stealth is always a class skill for you. Double this in hilly or rocky areas.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Medusa's Wrath Full attack: Add 2 unarmed strikes against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Orc Ferocity (1/day) 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Slow Fall 50' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Still Mind (Ex) +2 to saves against enchantment spells and effects.
Stunning Fist (10/day) (DC 19) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (1d10) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Wholeness of Body (10 HP/use) (Su) Self-heal monk level in damage for 2 Ki points.
Ability damage or drain is one of the tougher problems. I usually would suggest adding a qi-gong monk archetype in there or go for martial artist. But here I wanted to make a standard monk first :-)
Ah, OK :-)
Generally I agree with you. Regarding summoning, in this instance one of the key things about this build is the sacred summons feat which lets summon with a standard action, then buff myself and the azaata as a move action. The build gets stronger at 11th level when summon monster VI allows to summon up to 3 azaatas instead, and it rocks at level 13 where the buffing is only a swift action.
Spontaneously casting command, enthrall, tongues, suggestion or greater command is quite nice and offers a lot of options to change battles or avoid them entirely, btw - a nice feature of this archetype :-)
But I guess you have seen that already :-)
Standard or one round is still taking an action to summon something to fill a role already provided by a party member but once you start adding the swift actions you really make summoning a lot more useful. I see summoning more as a way to improve your chances of beating encounters rather than to replace a certain character. A party of summoning characters certainly does have a lot of options though.
Yosarian, I think you and I are in agreement on pretty much everything you said. Since the game assumes one does have X amount of wealth at any particular level, I don't see it as a problem either.
Low magic campaigns are a completely different beast and from what I've seen too often, are done so poorly that some classes completely lose effectiveness or other classes shine so brightly that they outshine everyone. Low magic campaigns require the GM to take a lot into account to keep the classes balanced.
Here is a monk build. Monks are quite self-sufficient and capable of getting along on their own. This one can (to a certain degree) heal himself, sneak away, run away - for example, after stunning -, spot even invisible enemies relatively reliably and deflect some attacks while gaining higher AC as well (fighting defensively).
** spoiler omitted **...
The hardest thing to deal with is defenses. The monk does well with the saves but the AC is hard to boost especially for a character that isn't going to wear armor.
I think the attack bonus is lower than you would like but the good thing is that it's easy to get that up a little without magic (flanking, charging, higher ground, etc).
Having some self-help abilities really can make a difference and that's one area where the monk can be better than some other non-casters.
A Low/no Magic Setting, unless "Horror based", should also mean Low(number/power)/No Magic(al) Monsters.
Here's my attempt at a survivable wizard without magic gear:
Survival wizard (universalist)
Human Wizard 5
NN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +7
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 12, touch 12, flat-footed 10 (+2 Dex)
hp 39 (5d6+15)
Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +4
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Masterwork Bill +5 (1d8+3/x3) and
. . Masterwork Cold Iron Dagger +5 (1d4+2/19-20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Silver Dagger +5 (1d4+1/19-20/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Crossbow, Light +5 (1d8/19-20/x2)
Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 5, 4 melee touch, 4 ranged touch):
3 (2/day) Lightning Bolt (DC 17), Fly (DC 17)
2 (3/day) Invisibility, See Invisibility, Blur (DC 16)
1 (4/day) Color Spray (DC 15), Mage Armor (DC 15), Mage Armor (DC 15), Feather Fall (DC 15)
0 (at will) Acid Splash, Mage Hand, Light, Detect Magic
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +2; CMB +4; CMD 16
Feats Arcane Strike, Extend Spell, Martial Weapon Proficiency (Bill), Nimble Moves, Scribe Scroll, Toughness +5, Wizard Weapon Proficiencies
Traits Magical Lineage (Mage Armor), Resilient
Skills Appraise +8, Climb +5, Fly +6, Heal +5, Knowledge (arcana) +12, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +8, Knowledge (engineering) +8, Knowledge (geography) +8, Knowledge (history) +8, Knowledge (local) +8, Knowledge (nature) +8, Knowledge (nobility) +8, Knowledge (planes) +8, Knowledge (religion) +8, Perception +7, Sense Motive +2, Spellcraft +12, Survival +1
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven, Gnome, Halfling
SQ +2 to Fortitude saves, +3 Spells in Spellbook, Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar, Empathic Link with Familiar, Hand of the Apprentice (7/day), Share Spells with Familiar, Speak With Familiar
Combat Gear Cold Iron Bolts, Crossbow (50), Masterwork Bill, Masterwork Cold Iron Dagger, Masterwork Crossbow, Light, Masterwork Silver Dagger, Silver Bolts, Crossbow (50);
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
+2 to Fortitude saves You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm's reach.
+3 Spells in Spellbook Add one spell from the wizard spell list to the wizard's spellbook. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the wizard can cast.
Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar (Su) Your familiar can deliver touch spells for you.
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Extend Spell Spell duration lasts twice as normal. +1 Level.
Hand of the Apprentice (7/day) (Su) Throw the melee weapon you are holding 7/day.
Magical Lineage (Mage Armor) A chosen spell counts as 1 level lower when metamagic feats are applied to it.
Nimble Moves Move through 5' of difficult terrain/round as if it was normal terrain.
Share Spells with Familiar The wizard may cast a spell with a target of "You" on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast).
Speak With Familiar (Ex) You can communicate verbally with your familiar.
spells
0 - all spells
1 - alarm, color spray, endure elements, feather fall, mage armor, magic missile, mount, obscuring mist, protection from evil, shield
2 - alter self, blur, invisibility, see invisibility
3 - fly, lightning bolt
-> I did not add an extra 1st level spell after the increase in INT stat (see below) because I am not sure if that is supposed to also happen retroactively. And I hope I did not miscount the spells... :-P
The idea is to play this caster a lot more like a medium BAB character, after all it only starts to differ at 3rd level. Starting array is Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 17 (15+2 racial), Wis 10, Cha 8. Increase Int at level 4 and every level afterwards. Favored class bonus went in hitpoints for levels 1&2, then into the extra spell.
Feats:
1 - Toughness (HPs help), Martial weapon proficiency (any reach weapon will do, I chose the Bill for the shield bonus), scribe scroll
3 - arcane strike (increase your damage, hurt incorporeal foes)
5 - nimble moves (move better in difficult terrain), extend spell (challenges harder, use less mage armor castings)
The reach weapon will help keep foes away, otherwise you just provide flanking (for allikes) or try to stick to crossbow. With arcane strike you can expect to always deliver a certain level of damage.
His skills are geared more towards survival (survival, heal, climb, etc.) and the most essential knowledges (arcana, religion, nature) and spellcraft.
Let me know what you think :-)
A Low/no Magic Setting, unless "Horror based", should also mean Low(number/power)/No Magic(al) Monsters.
To my understanding it's not about a low/no magic setting, it's about the same setting as usual. Using no magical gear is just the attempt to show how much classes in that kind of setting really depend on gear.
@Bob_Loblaw: What about
1. level dips
2. eldritch heritag
3. prestige classe?
Any of those of interest here?
Here's my attempt at a survivable wizard without magic gear:
** spoiler omitted **...
What if you changed the spell list to require fewer spells that have saving throws or were still useful on successful saves?
Do you think Paladin's Smite (for getting through DR from creature types that have it most often) and healing would qualify it for being less-gear-dependent?
Those are definitely not using gear. While they are limited in uses, they are still very useful. Paladins are great characters. They are less effective against non-evil creatures but still contributors in and out of combat.
Most of the arguments don't come about from rangers or paladins being too gear dependent. It's usually focused on fighters, rogues, and monks. The claim usually says that clerics, druids, and wizards are not gear dependent.
What if you changed the spell list to require fewer spells that have saving throws or were still useful on successful saves?Here's my attempt at a survivable wizard without magic gear:
** spoiler omitted **...
Except for the 0th level spells I only count 2 spells (color spray, lightning bolts) with saving throws - well, at least in terms of offensive spells. And they are even useful if you fail the save. Or am I overlooking something?
@Bob_Loblaw: What about
1. level dips
2. eldritch heritag
3. prestige classe?
Any of those of interest here?
They are all options but multi-classing does mean that we aren't talking about a particular class anymore.
Eldritch heritage is on the table but remember that some feats showcase the feat and not the class. I don't want to limit options because that's part of the fun of the game for so many of us. I do want to see more casters that show how casters aren't gear dependent.
BTW, I do like your builds and I wish that there was a way to just link their HL files to the boards so I could just download them. It would make it easier for me to steal some NPCs.
Except for the 0th level spells I only count 2 spells (color spray, lightning bolts) with saving throws - well, at least in terms of offensive spells. And they are even useful if you fail the save. Or am I overlooking something?What if you changed the spell list to require fewer spells that have saving throws or were still useful on successful saves?Here's my attempt at a survivable wizard without magic gear:
** spoiler omitted **...
I skimmed the spell list while I was doing something else. I should have looked more closely. I stand corrected.
Ok, I'm up for a challenge. Level 10 no gear party. And by "no gear", I mean NOTHING that has a gp/sp/cp value. Just to kick this up to the EXTREME! :)
So, clubs are fair game. Slings that launch rocks from the ground are fair game. Sling bullets are not fair game. Witch gets their familiar for free, so that is fair game. Familiar for basically anyone else is not. Spellbook is not. Material components are not (they have no listed price, but that's because the game assumes you have a component pouch that *does*), but one feat fixes that.
Now then, other than the insane item restriction, I am going for optimization. Goal is for the party to handle level appropriate challenges, except perhaps for enemies that basically force a party to rely on magic items to deal with. Even then, ideally spells can overcome all.
Which of the following should I make for the party, and how large should the party size be? I'm pre-selecting race-class combo to make this process quicker.
The options I am willing to try and stat out:
- Elf Witch (considering Beast Bonded for infinite Magic Jar abuse)
- Half-Elf Oracle (abusing Paragon Surge, of course)
Human Sorceror (any ideal archetype for this? I was sorely tempted to just make another half-elf paragon surge abuser like the oracle...)
- Half-Elf Wildcaller Synthesist
- Fetchling Archaeologist Bard
- Tiefling Bladebound Magus (it's the most "fighter"-y class I think could make it; Bladebound is for the freebee weapon)
- Samsaran Menhir Savant Druid (abusing Mystic Past Life, of course)
Should I assume leadership feat is banned?
On a related note, if said party is allowed to consort with a hag, even just long enough to form a coven... Bladebound Hexblade Magus / Witch (any kind) / Accursed bloodline Sorcerer trio would be an interesting theme party...
Ok, I'm up for a challenge. Level 10 no gear party. And by "no gear", I mean NOTHING that has a gp/sp/cp value. Just to kick this up to the EXTREME! :)
Just so you know, I'm not challenging whether or not it can be done but whether or not it is a reasonable expectation. If it takes high levels of system mastery, what does that tell us? I do believe you are going to create an interesting party nonetheless.
So, clubs are fair game. Slings that launch rocks from the ground are fair game. Sling bullets are not fair game. Witch gets their familiar for free, so that is fair game. Familiar for basically anyone else is not. Spellbook is not. Material components are not (they have no listed price, but that's because the game assumes you have a component pouch that *does*), but one feat fixes that.
Now then, other than the insane item restriction, I am going for optimization. Goal is for the party to handle level appropriate challenges, except perhaps for enemies that basically force a party to rely on magic items to deal with. Even then, ideally spells can overcome all.
It's all going to come down to spell selection then. This is the kind of information I've been looking for too.
Which of the following should I make for the party, and how large should the party size be? I'm pre-selecting race-class combo to make this process quicker.
The options I am willing to try and stat out:
- Elf Witch (considering Beast Bonded for infinite Magic Jar abuse)
- Half-Elf Oracle (abusing Paragon Surge, of course)
Human Sorceror (any ideal archetype for this? I was sorely tempted to just make another half-elf paragon surge abuser like the oracle...)
- Half-Elf Wildcaller Synthesist
- Fetchling Archaeologist Bard
- Tiefling Bladebound Magus (it's the most "fighter"-y class I think could make it; Bladebound is for the freebee weapon)
- Samsaran Menhir Savant Druid (abusing Mystic Past Life, of course)
I think that a party of 4 is fine since that's one of the underlying assumptions with Challenge Ratings and encounters. What levels were you going for? Remember that I would like to see how the characters fare at lower levels too. It's one thing to create a level 15 character in a vacuum. It's another to expect that character to live to see level 15 in the first place.
Should I assume leadership feat is banned?
On a related note, if said party is allowed to consort with a hag, even just long enough to form a coven... Bladebound Hexblade Magus / Witch (any kind) / Accursed bloodline Sorcerer trio would be an interesting theme party...
I haven't banned any feats regardless of how cheesy it can be. Remember though, that if you have to cheese it out, you aren't showing how well the classes function without gear. You are showing how well a larger party would do with more versatility. It would show us very little that we don't already know.
So I will concede that any character that uses Leadership can overcome many gear issues if the right cohort(s) are chosen. It goes back to what we mentioned before: teamwork is a huge factor in a character's success.
Well, Leadership more than anything proves the value of the action economy. You can basically double the party size.
I was going to do just 10th level because it's the middle of the game and I only want to stat out one level, because making spellcasters is a pain in the ass as it is and I'm lazy. :p
I sort of agree with you on cheesiness, but other than leadership, I think the point is... the classes above HAVE those cheesy options. What exactly can a fighter do w/ no gear that costs money to be cheesy? Witch can toss unlimited use/day save or die/lose hexes or endless loop magic jar (beast bonded). Oracle can go, "I know that spell!" for 95% of the spells in the game. Sorcerer's largely the same except lower AC and saves and spell save DCs are 1-3 points lower. Even something as humble as the Synthesist using reach, size, and flight evolutions w/ enlarge person spell to play tag with ground-bound monsters.
In any case, the CR system assumes wealth. I'm not disupting everyone benefits a lot from magic items. Just that the noncaster classes *need* it far more just to function, and it's much more easy/possible to make a caster-oriented gearless party. Is it possible for castes to beat CR appropriate encounters without gear? Maybe. I really wouldn't even know how to "properly" make an unoptimized caster, though. It'd be awkward, like making intentionally bad choices and asking, "is this bad enough? Too bad? Just the right level of weak?"
EDIT: If allowing for 3PP sources a Soulknife5/Aegis5/Metaforge10 is about as gear "independant" as you can get. "Free" magical weapon and armor and being able to "swap" enhancements from weapon to armor (DPS to tank role).
Actually, I've run a lot of numbers (staggeringly so) using the Soulknife/Aegis/Metaforge build, and Soulknife12/Aegis4/Metaforge3 is a build I've found to be stronger than 5/5/10, but that's getting off topic.
Actually, I've run a lot of numbers (staggeringly so) using the Soulknife/Aegis/Metaforge build, and Soulknife12/Aegis4/Metaforge3 is a build I've found to be stronger than 5/5/10, but that's getting off topic.EDIT: If allowing for 3PP sources a Soulknife5/Aegis5/Metaforge10 is about as gear "independant" as you can get. "Free" magical weapon and armor and being able to "swap" enhancements from weapon to armor (DPS to tank role).
Random levels, both classes getting at least one set of the class abilities to qualify for the feats to increase them (things like the Aegis reconfigure and such).
Master summoner. Hide and summon monsters. Some summonable monsters have useful gear, and thanks to your summoning ability their gear will last for long enough that you can use it if you want.
|
|
Do you think Paladin's Smite (for getting through DR from creature types that have it most often) and healing would qualify it for being less-gear-dependent?Those are definitely not using gear. While they are limited in uses, they are still very useful. Paladins are great characters. They are less effective against non-evil creatures but still contributors in and out of combat.
Most of the arguments don't come about from rangers or paladins being too gear dependent. It's usually focused on fighters, rogues, and monks. The claim usually says that clerics, druids, and wizards are not gear dependent.
Hmm. I'll think about it and see if I can come up with a party formed round monks, rogues and fighters that's not gear-dependent. I reserve the right to add one or two casters to support them though, for obvious DR problems.
I think it'll be doable though. Making a no-magic-item character in isolation is hard, but if you can count on party members having builds that work together, I think it can work.
|
Master Summoners don't need much gear to work.
Race: Gnome
STR: 9 DEX: 14 CON: 16 INT: 12 WIS: 10 CHA: 17
*As long as you have 16+ Cha, Master summoners can place their other stats however they like. More Wis for will saves, more Con for Hp, Int for skills.... etc.
Feats:
Lv 1: Improve Initiative or Extra Gnomish Magic for Speak with Animals (If you plan to do a lot of Scouting with your summons.)
Lv 3: Superior Summons - for the extra summon.
Lv 5+ : Grab whatever suits you to make you harder to kill.
Lesser Eidolon - Make your Eidolon make up for all your short comings. Grab the Mount evolution (So you can ride it.), Skilled (For the all important perception.)
Its skills should be in climb, and any other that skill that you don't expect to be good in or just lack.
Scouting - Just use your summons to scout. Let Your Eidolon be your own personal 4x wheel/legs drive.
Combat - From the very first level you can summon monsters up to 8 times a day. Used 2x per battle, that will cover the 4 encounters a day.
Spells - At level 3 they can focus on casting haste on their pets and party members.
Gear - Other then just light armor, Master Summoner don't need any more Gear. (They help, but there is no "MUST HAVE" item."
Overall - Master Summoners, are Scouts, Tanks, Buffers and just plan useful from level 1 to 20. :)