How does scent work while you're sleeping?

[Xavier319]

does it work? and if so, how does it work? will someone sneaking up on you while you're sleeping, and you have scent, wake you up?

[Chengar Qordath]

I would assume it works like any other perception check while sleeping; you can make checks, but at a substantial penalty.

[Cablefist]

D20PFSRD wrote:

Creatures with the scent special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks made to detect a scent.

D20PFSRD wrote:

Creature making the check is asleep +10

(to the perception DC)

I suppose you would have to talk it over with your GM first, but it seems reasonable one could infer that a sleeping character could make a scent based perception check at their normal perception -2 (-10 + 8)

Assuming the perceptee isn't going to length to mask their scent, of course.

[Friend of the Dork]

Cablefist wrote:

D20PFSRD wrote:

Creatures with the scent special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks made to detect a scent.

D20PFSRD wrote:

Creature making the check is asleep +10

(to the perception DC)

I suppose you would have to talk it over with your GM first, but it seems reasonable one could infer that a sleeping character could make a scent based perception check at their normal perception -2 (-10 + 8)

Assuming the perceptee isn't going to length to mask their scent, of course.

Nice catch, it seems the scent rules has changed a lot, in 3.5 they didn't even use a skill check for scent at all (except Survival for tracking).

Scent is still confusing though... A Creature using Stealth can somehow counter the Scent by skill alone?

And the Invisibility penalty should really be marked 1" Favorable and unfavorable conditions depend upon the sense being used to make the check. For example, bright light might increase the DC of checks involving sight, while torchlight or moonlight might give a penalty. Background noise might reduce a DC involving hearing, while competing odors might penalize any DC involving scent."

[bookrat]

Friend of the Dork wrote:

Scent is still confusing though... A Creature using Stealth can somehow counter the Scent by skill alone?

Want to counter scent? Approach from downwind.

[Serisan]

bookrat wrote:

Friend of the Dork wrote:

Scent is still confusing though... A Creature using Stealth can somehow counter the Scent by skill alone?

Want to counter scent? Approach from downwind.

Potentially. That only halves the distance that Scent operates. If you're playing a Half-Orc with Keen Scent, the standard distance is 30 ft, halved for 15 ft. A halfling or gnome would need to move at full speed (with a significant penalty) to approach the character without being detected first. A Medium sized creature could approach at the standard 1/2 speed, but they lack the racial mod to Stealth. Honestly, anyone who takes Keen Scent on their character is going to have a RIDICULOUS Perception check.

The real answer is to confuse the sense with an overpowering scent bomb or similar. Bypass the sense.

[Ravingdork]

Scent automatically detects concealed foes, no Perception check necessary. How this interacts with sleeping, I have no idea.

[bookrat]

Serisan wrote:

bookrat wrote:

Friend of the Dork wrote:

Scent is still confusing though... A Creature using Stealth can somehow counter the Scent by skill alone?

Want to counter scent? Approach from downwind.

Potentially. That only halves the distance that Scent operates. If you're playing a Half-Orc with Keen Scent, the standard distance is 30 ft, halved for 15 ft. A halfling or gnome would need to move at full speed (with a significant penalty) to approach the character without being detected first. A Medium sized creature could approach at the standard 1/2 speed, but they lack the racial mod to Stealth. Honestly, anyone who takes Keen Scent on their character is going to have a RIDICULOUS Perception check.

The real answer is to confuse the sense with an overpowering scent bomb or similar. Bypass the sense.

Good points. When relying on perception, it would be a good idea to provide distractions regardless of the sense. Perhaps even combining it with their weaknesses, like approaching from downwind.

[Friend of the Dork]

In order to use Stealth you need concealment or cover, neither of which affects stealth vs. hearing or smell. The rules don't say you automatically detect everyone within 30' (ignoring wind), but what would be the DC to detect someone moving within 30' of a blind dog? If it could see, it would automatically detect the creature because it has no cover or concealment. To hear it is DC 10 (+ range), or Stealth check.

The problem is that we lack a base Smelling DC. Smelling smoke is DC 0, which even a human can pull off easily, but what is the DC to smell another human? 10? 20? 30? Generally speaking, a human would have to be close to detect someone from smell alone, and the person to smell would have to be unwashed/perfumed etc. That +8 to smell isn't gonna do all that vs a DC 30, but if the DC is 20 or less then everyone can smell someone with a little luck.

In 3.5 detection was automatic, which made scent and sleeping problematic (either still automatic or DM made it same as hearing). Now with smell actually having a skill linked to it opens up a can of worms.

[Booksy]

I have to back up Cablefist and Chengar on this one. Scent gives you an edge in detecting your foes, even when asleep. Make the role at -2 (+8 for Scent, -10 for sleeping) plus any other conditional modifiers you want to let your PC's get away with (downwind, another -2). I try not to pick apart rules like this because thats what the numbers on your character sheet are for. I'm not a half-orc with an enchanced sense of smell, nor am I a ninja who has been practicing the ability of Stealth my entire career. The numbers reflect how good 'your character' is at something, and the rolls indicate how well you use that knowledge, and how much/little the universe hates you at that precise moment.

Although, a little common sense goes along way, don't leave your camp unguarded just because you can smell your foes while you're asleep.

[stuart haffenden]

I wouldn't allow a "scent check" to detect foes while sleeping. Since when did smells wake you up?

If it were that easy to detect smells people wouldn't die from smoke inhalation etc while asleep.

[knightnday]

stuart haffenden wrote:

I wouldn't allow a "scent check" to detect foes while sleeping. Since when did smells wake you up?

If it were that easy to detect smells people wouldn't die from smoke inhalation etc while asleep.

Maybe they failed their scent check? Plus, think of all the commercials (especially for coffee) showing people getting woke up by the smell of cooking or the rich fresh scent of coffee. I'd allow it, with a modifier or two.

[stuart haffenden]

knightnday wrote:

stuart haffenden wrote:

I wouldn't allow a "scent check" to detect foes while sleeping. Since when did smells wake you up?

If it were that easy to detect smells people wouldn't die from smoke inhalation etc while asleep.

Maybe they failed their scent check? Plus, think of all the commercials (especially for coffee) showing people getting woke up by the smell of cooking or the rich fresh scent of coffee. I'd allow it, with a modifier or two.

That's just crazy talk right there man, those adverts are just trying to sell you stuff, its not like it actually happens in the real world, I mean, that would be stupid, as if a Birdman Sorcerer would actually wake up to the smell of coffee...I think you need to separate what's real and what's fantasy ;)

[Slamy Mcbiteo]

I guess this how I handle scent...

scent it self can not locate anything...it can only alert them of a presence and then they have to start tracking it until they are within 5 feet then they can pinpoint the creatures location

The creature detects another creature's presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If the creature moves within 5 feet (1 square) of the scent's source, the creature can pinpoint the area that the source occupies, even if it cannot be seen.

The bonus to perception only applies when the make an perception check to detect a scent...awake o asleep.

Creatures with the scent special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks made to detect a scent

I do not see anything the automatically alerts a person with scent to the presence of some one that is hidden. It is still a perception check. Also other odors can mask some one scent, for example garage in a back ally, a skunk or even rain thus taken away the +8

[Friend of the Dork]

stuart haffenden wrote:

I wouldn't allow a "scent check" to detect foes while sleeping. Since when did smells wake you up?

If it were that easy to detect smells people wouldn't die from smoke inhalation etc while asleep.

Since when did YOU have the ability to smell like a dog? Human scent is very limited compared to animals. This is why we generally wake up because of noise instead (or when the sun shines in). Now, why would it be impossible for a creature with a fine-tuned sense to use that to wake up?

It's not impossible for a human to wake because of the smell of smoke, however by that time the smoke can still kill you. We have smoke alarms for a reason. If you have a dog or other animal though, it is very likely it will detect the smoke while asleep and start barking.

Here's a link about how to use your dog as a fire alarm:
http://canineconcepts.co.uk/en/blog/19-how-to-train-your-dog-as-a-smoke-ala rm

That would be kinda stupid if your dog couldn't smell smoke when asleep, right?

[Shar Tahl]

On the dog note, I have a pointer mix with a very good nose. I have laid a piece of food in front of his face when he was sleeping. His nose twitches, but he doesn't pop right up and eat it, and he is a huge fan of food. Just having scent does not make you omniscient to everything near you.

[Friend of the Dork]

Shar Tahl wrote:

On the dog note, I have a pointer mix with a very good nose. I have laid a piece of food in front of his face when he was sleeping. His nose twitches, but he doesn't pop right up and eat it, and he is a huge fan of food. Just having scent does not make you omniscient to everything near you.

I'm betting dogs are not instinctively ready to defend themselves against sudden food in the night :P

If you really wanted to test your dog though, you'd have to introduce a new smell, like letting an unknown bunny loose around him or something!

In any case, the question is not simply if someone with scent will automatically detect someone while sleeping, but also if it can detect someone with scent alone while sleeping.

Perception is more than sense alone. It is comprised of:

1. Register something by the sense
2. Having the brain recognize or "label" it something to react to
3. Having the brain trigger the appropriate reaction. (being alerted, waking up, jumping etc.)

Quite a lot can go wrong along these steps. The human brain is very good at filtering out stuff it thinks is unimportant. That's why some can sleep through a tornado, while others wake up because a car drove past the home during the night.

Same thing with dogs. Better senses, not necessarily better at giving the correct reaction.

Forcing a Perception test (with +8) seems appropriate to me, the only problem is the lack of a proper DC.

[HangarFlying]

stuart haffenden wrote:

That's just crazy talk right there man, those adverts are just trying to sell you stuff, its not like it actually happens in the real world, I mean, that would be stupid, as if a Birdman Sorcerer would actually wake up to the smell of coffee...I think you need to separate what's real and what's fantasy ;)

Actually, while growing up, I would wake up to the smell of my dad brewing coffee. Of course, the first thing I would do when I got up was go to the bathroom. So now, whenever I smell coffee, I get the urge to go to the bathroom. Thanks Folgers!

[knightnday]

stuart haffenden wrote:

knightnday wrote:

stuart haffenden wrote:

I wouldn't allow a "scent check" to detect foes while sleeping. Since when did smells wake you up?

If it were that easy to detect smells people wouldn't die from smoke inhalation etc while asleep.

Maybe they failed their scent check? Plus, think of all the commercials (especially for coffee) showing people getting woke up by the smell of cooking or the rich fresh scent of coffee. I'd allow it, with a modifier or two.

That's just crazy talk right there man, those adverts are just trying to sell you stuff, its not like it actually happens in the real world, I mean, that would be stupid, as if a Birdman Sorcerer would actually wake up to the smell of coffee...I think you need to separate what's real and what's fantasy ;)

Wouldn't be the first time someone's told me that! But seriously, I've woken up to the smells of someone cooking in the house and I'm hardly a trained adventurer. Someone who is living on their wits and luck out in the woods picking up on some odd smell .. not too far-fetched.

[bookrat]

knightnday wrote:

stuart haffenden wrote:

knightnday wrote:

stuart haffenden wrote:

I wouldn't allow a "scent check" to detect foes while sleeping. Since when did smells wake you up?

If it were that easy to detect smells people wouldn't die from smoke inhalation etc while asleep.

Maybe they failed their scent check? Plus, think of all the commercials (especially for coffee) showing people getting woke up by the smell of cooking or the rich fresh scent of coffee. I'd allow it, with a modifier or two.

That's just crazy talk right there man, those adverts are just trying to sell you stuff, its not like it actually happens in the real world, I mean, that would be stupid, as if a Birdman Sorcerer would actually wake up to the smell of coffee...I think you need to separate what's real and what's fantasy ;)

Wouldn't be the first time someone's told me that! But seriously, I've woken up to the smells of someone cooking in the house and I'm hardly a trained adventurer. Someone who is living on their wits and luck out in the woods picking up on some odd smell .. not too far-fetched.

This is absolutlet true. Talk to some army rangers about it. When you're separated from society, it become very easy to notice out of place smells. Especially other people. Now, if humans can do this, with only 5 million olfactory receptors, think what a dog can do with 220 million olfactory receptors. And remember: your senses are on alert when you are in a dangerous area, like in the wilderness where random monsters can attack you. :)

[Chief Cook and Bottlewasher]

stuart haffenden wrote:

I wouldn't allow a "scent check" to detect foes while sleeping. Since when did smells wake you up?

If it were that easy to detect smells people wouldn't die from smoke inhalation etc while asleep.

I don't think that's comparable. Doesn't smoke usually contain carbon monoxide and dioxide that send you to sleep (before being fatal)?

[stuart haffenden]

knightnday wrote:

stuart haffenden wrote:

knightnday wrote:

stuart haffenden wrote:

I wouldn't allow a "scent check" to detect foes while sleeping. Since when did smells wake you up?

If it were that easy to detect smells people wouldn't die from smoke inhalation etc while asleep.

Maybe they failed their scent check? Plus, think of all the commercials (especially for coffee) showing people getting woke up by the smell of cooking or the rich fresh scent of coffee. I'd allow it, with a modifier or two.

That's just crazy talk right there man, those adverts are just trying to sell you stuff, its not like it actually happens in the real world, I mean, that would be stupid, as if a Birdman Sorcerer would actually wake up to the smell of coffee...I think you need to separate what's real and what's fantasy ;)

Wouldn't be the first time someone's told me that! But seriously, I've woken up to the smells of someone cooking in the house and I'm hardly a trained adventurer. Someone who is living on their wits and luck out in the woods picking up on some odd smell .. not too far-fetched.

Really? You know the reason you woke was because of a smell? Couldn't the smell have just been there when you woke because of a different reason?

How do you prove a smell woke you? But really, how does one know that, as I've woken up to a room with smells in it before but I can't say they were the reason.