Clerics and Shield bash(martial weapon)

[Maraxion]

Hi.
I wanted to check something.

The rules states that:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields). Clerics are also proficient with the favored weapon of their deities.

So obvious they can use shields. But what with shield bash?
Bashing description states:
A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash.Only light and heavy shields can have this ability.

So far so good. But when you go under the different shields it says:
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a light shield. See “shield, light” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a light shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon.

So how do you rule this for a cleric? He can obvious use the shield for defence, but can he use it to shield bash since he hasent got martial weapon profency?

1. Either he can use it for defence, but gets the normal penalties to attack with it.

2. He can use it for a shield and also shield bash withouth any penalties.

Or maybe other have another idea!

So what do you say? Put it to a vote?

[Gauss]

I say #1 since it states simple weapons.

Rationale: Nothing in the feat 'Shield Proficiency' states that you are proficient with the shield as a weapon. You would have to take the feat 'Martial Weapon Proficiency (X Shield)' to become proficient with the shield as a weapon. Clerics do not get that feat for free.

- Gauss

[Nicos]

As a weapon the shield is martial. Clerics are only proficients with simple weapons so they can do a shield bash but they takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.

[Skylancer4]

Unless shields are the preferred weapon of their deity, they could shield bash without penalty at that point.

[TheSideKick]

a good work around...

heirloom weapon

[Dark Netwerk]

I believe that Shield Proficiency, although not explicitly stated, includes the ability to use it for bashing without non proficiency penalty. Notice the Improved Shield Bash feat requires only the Shield Proficiency feat (which cleric get for free) and there is no mention of a Weapon Proficiency (shield) feat in this or any other bashing related feat.

So #2 should be correct.

[Grick]

Dark Netwerk wrote:

I believe that Shield Proficiency, although not explicitly stated, includes the ability to use it for bashing without non proficiency penalty.

Then why would it be treated as a martial weapon? Why even put the type of proficiency in the text if it doesn't matter?

Dark Netwerk wrote:

Notice the Improved Shield Bash feat requires only the Shield Proficiency feat (which cleric get for free) and there is no mention of a Weapon Proficiency (shield) feat in this or any other bashing related feat.

Yes, which means the cleric qualifies for the feat. That doesn't mean the cleric is proficient with the shield when used to bash.

Look at the feat:
Shield Proficiency (Combat):
"Benefit: When you use a shield (except a tower shield), the shield's armor check penalty only applies to Strength- and Dexterity-based skills.

Normal: When you are using a shield with which you are not proficient, you take the shield's armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all skill checks that involve moving."

If you're proficient with medium armor, that doesn't mean you're proficient with armor spikes you put on that armor. Because armor spikes count as a martial weapon. If you're proficient with heavy shields, that doesn't mean you're proficient with one when used to bash. Because when used that way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon.

[Grick]

James Jacobs (Creative Director) wrote:

Since a shield bash or shield spike is a martial weapon, the cleric in this case could use the attack but would take the -4 penalty for not being proficient.

[Quiche Lisp]

Ho, and another amusing thing:

"Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm.[...] You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn.[...]"

To me, this oft-ignored tidbit of rule implies that, while carrying a weapon and a shield, you can cast a spell with somatic components only if that shield is a buckler.

You can't handle a weapon in your primary hand, carry a light or heavy shield, and at the same time cast a spell with somatic component.

[Grick]

James Jacobs (Creative Director) wrote:

A light shield allows spellcasters to use their hand to cast, and lets you carry an object; the only thing it actually prevents is wielding a weapon.

James Jacobs (Creative Director) wrote:

Switching a held object from one hand to the other doesn't require an action, so the end result is the same whether or not you use the light shield hand to lay on hands or your weapon hand after switching your weapon to the off hand, and then back to your weapon hand.

The fact that allowing you to use your light shield hand to do so without so many fiddly steps is why I'd say it's fine to let it work that way.

[Dark Netwerk]

@Grick: Wow! Ok, JJ says they take the -4 penalty. There's the answer, thanks. I'll have to let the shield-bashing cleric player in my game know about this.

I do find it a little silly, though, that someone without Martial Weapon Proficiency (shield) can take feats to improve ones ability to use the shield to bash (Improved Shield Bash, Shield Slam, Shield Master, Bashing Finish).

[Gauss]

Dark Netwerk: I agree, shield bash should require the Martial weapon proficiency (shield) instead of or in addtion to Shield Proficiency.

- Gauss

[Game Player]

Sorry to pipe in, but the shield proficiency states that you are proficient and that the only penalties you take are to str and dex based skills. It does not state that you also receive attack penalties if you do not have shield proficiency attack. Like grik mentions in his comment,

Normal: When you are using a shield with which you are not proficient, you take the shield's armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all skill checks that involve moving."
So that would mean that if you are proficient you take no attack penalties using said shield.

I guess the shield can be an item that has a list of "what you can do when you are proficient and what you can't do when you are proficient" Maybe they should do that with all weapons, Proficient in Dagger while slashing but need martial proficiency to stab with it, because one is a swing and one is a thrust??

[Grick]

Game Player wrote:

Normal: When you are using a shield with which you are not proficient, you take the shield's armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all skill checks that involve moving."

So that would mean that if you are proficient you take no attack penalties using said shield.

Simple, Martial, and Exotic Weapons: "A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls."

Nonproficient with Armor Worn: "A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he is not proficient takes the armor's (and/or shield's) armor check penalty on attack rolls as well as on all Dexterity- and Strength-based ability and skill checks."

Wally the wizard is not proficient with shields, nor with martial weapons.

Wally equips a heavy steel shield.

Since Wally is not proficient with the shield, he takes the shields armor check penalty on attack rolls as well as on all Dexterity- and Strength-based ability and skill checks.

If Wally attacks with a dagger, he takes a -2 penalty, from the shield's armor check penalty.

If Wally uses the shield to bash, he takes a -2 penalty from the shield's armor check penalty, as well as a -4 penalty for not being proficient with martial weapons.

Carl the cleric is proficient with shields, but not with martial weapons.

Carl equips a heavy steel shield.

Since Carl is proficient with the shield, he does not take the shields armor check penalty on attack rolls as well as on all Dexterity- and Strength-based ability and skill checks.

If Carl attacks with a dagger, he takes no armor check penalty, because he's proficient with the shield.

If Carl uses the shield to bash, he takes a -4 penalty for not being proficient with martial weapons.

Roger the ranger is proficient with shields, as well as with martial weapons.

Roger equips a heavy steel shield.

Since Roger is proficient with the shield, he does not take the shields armor check penalty on attack rolls as well as on all Dexterity- and Strength-based ability and skill checks.

If Roger attacks with a dagger, he takes no armor check penalty, because he's proficient with the shield.

If Roger uses the shield to bash, he takes no penalties, because he's both proficient with the shield (as armor) as well as martial weapons.

[BR]

He will take the -4 attack roll penalty, unless the cleric has Shield Master, which he would certainly want to take if he qualifies and wants to be a shield basher.

It eliminates all attack roll penalties to shield bash while wielding another weapon in the other hand.

"Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield’s enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the shield as if it were a weapon enhancement bonus."

[Quandary]

I would rule they also have proficiency with Shields as weapons, it mentions Shields under "Weapon and Armor Proficiency" and nothing distinguishes that it is only giving proficiency with Shields as AC-items. I have no idea what the intent is, but the RAW is lacking text to specify a more restrictive reading, in the absense of which I don't see a reason to exclude the weapon proficiency reading, given it is saying you are proficient in an item which is a listed weapon.