Page of Spell Knowledge (UE) and UMD

[pad300]

This came about because of the discussion in Cheapy's thread:
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz6a4p?The-Gold-Value-of-the-Human-Sorcerer-Favor ed

The core question is can you use UMD with a Page of Spell Knowledge?

Cheapy kindly provided us with the exact wording of the relevant bits:

Cheapy wrote:

Here's the item's text. There is the anti-summonercheese rule in place already.

Quote:

This page is covered in densely-worded arcane or divine magical runes. It contains the knowledge of a single

arcane or divine spell (chosen by the creator when the
item is crafted). If the bearer is a spontaneous spellcaster
and has that spell on her class spell list, she may use her
spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells
known. A page of spell knowledge is priced based on the
spell’s cleric or sorcerer/wizard spell level, unless the spell
doesn’t appear on either of those spell lists, in which case
it is based on the highest spell level as it appears on any
other spell list. For example, a spell that is on the 4th-level
inquisitor list and the 2nd-level paladin list is priced as a
4th-level spell.

I have bolded the key statement; if a that spell is already on your class list, you cast the spell as if from your class list (including level). No Dominate Monster in a 6th level slot using the summoner list, unless you are a summoner. Even then, you have to pay for the Page as if it was a ninth level sor/wiz spell...

What if the spell isn't on your list? Can you use UMD to use the page anyways? UMD certainly can achieve putting a spell on your spell list -

Quote:

Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a charge.

Quote:

Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don't have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check. This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.

UMD allows you to emulate having a spell on your class list for sepll trigger and spell completion items. For other item types, we have the generic emulate class feature ability. I believe that an emulate class feature check, DC 20, would allow you to treat a spell that is not on your class list, as if it is on your class list, and therefore, using the italicized section in the 1st quote, "She may use her

spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells
known", cast the spell on the Page of Spell knowledge.

An alternative argument has been put forth by FiddlersGreen

FiddlersGreen wrote:

d20pfsrd wrote:

Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

So if you wanted to, you could emulate a class feature 'spellcasting', which as stated above, allows you to add the spell to your list of spells known for the class you are emulating and not all your classes. So you can trick the page into thinking you are a sorcerer and the page would add, say, 'fireball' to your list of sorcerer spells known. It's not going to do you any good if you don't have the spell slot to cast it, since UMD does not actually give you spell slots. You just have a third level sorcerer spell known because of the item. However, one thing that this actually DOES achieve is that you can now use scrolls of fireball. But if you were going to do this, you probably should have just used UMD to activate the scroll in the first place.

Basically, you can't mix and match elements of the different uses of the UMD skill to suit your desires. If you are not using a spell completion or spell trigger item, ...

That, summarizes the 2 sides of the argument so far.

So, can you use UMD with a Page of Spell Knowledge, to cast a spell that is not on your class list? For example, could a sorcerer cast Resurrection from the Cleric/Oracle list, given an a Page of Spell Knowledge (Resurrection), a 7th level spell slot, and a high UMD check?

[FiddlersGreen]

You missed this bit:

There are a few specific listed applications of UMD, the relevance of which depends on the item in question. The lines about the use of a "Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item" and a scroll apply to the use of such items only, and the Page of Spell Knowledge is none of those items.

What you are left with is the emulation of an ability score, alignment, race or class feature, the last of which is the closest use of the skill that may be applicable. Which leads in to my argument presented if your quote. =)

Basically, you can't mix and match elements of the different uses of the UMD skill.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

I'm with FiddlersGreen on this one, and I wrote the item (or at least an early version of it. It changed a bit in development).

[cartmanbeck]

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

I'm with FiddlersGreen on this one, and I wrote the item (or at least an early version of it. It changed a bit in development).

Agreed, I don't think it was ever intended that UMD can emulate the ability to cast a specific spell using the "emulate a class feature" part, so I'd say no.

[LazarX]

UMD emulates a class feature....for the purposes of activating an item.

It doesn't c hange the items effects.

You have Spell Knowledge Page with the spell Cure Light Wounds on it.

Your sorcerer does a UMD on the page. and he shouts ho! success.

Unfortunately though he does not have any divine/bard/witch/whatever spell casting slots to make use of his temporary knowledge. The spell won't go into a sorcerer slot so he's essentially wasted his time and a good skill roll to no effect.

[Please Don't Kill Me]

Okay, something similar happened with the Ring of Revelation. This is an official ruling by James Jacobs.

James Jacobs wrote:

Dan Luckett wrote:

James,

Over at the PFS section there is some confusion on how the UMD Skill works in regards to emulating a class. The question was targeted at Ring of Revelation. The argument is can a non-oracle utilize the ring to gain temporary access to a revelation with a sufficient roll of UMD?

Some argue that no, you have to be an Oracle, and if you're not UMD won't help you.

Others say that UMD circumvents those standard preventions.

Use Magic Device will let you trick an item into thinking you're a different class... but it does not grant the POWERS of that class. The way the ring of revelation is worded pretty much means you HAVE to be an Oracle (aka you have to meet minimum level requirements in class abilities granted by the oracle class, since the powers granted directly affect that ability rather than grant you NEW abilities). Furthermore, the ring specifically says that it has no effect if worn by a non-oracle.

SO. Best case scenario, you could Use Magic Device to trick the ring into activating, but if you don't actually have class levels in oracle, the ring will do nothing more than take up a ring slot for you.

Essentially you can use UMD to activate the item but you can make no use of it unless you have levels in that class.

[FiddlersGreen]

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

I wrote the item (or at least an early version of it. It changed a bit in development).

And thus you are hailed as hero and champion of all Pathfinder sorcerer players in the world. =)

[Serisan]

I don't want this to work, but playing devil's advocate...

PRD wrote:

Class Features

The following are class features of the cleric.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields). Clerics are also proficient with the favored weapon of their deity.

Aura (Ex): A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment (see the detect evil spell for details).

Spells: A cleric casts divine spells which are drawn from the cleric spell list presented in Spell Lists.

This establishes that the Spells class feature of a Cleric is directly tied to their spell list and that Spells are a class feature.

Page of Spell Knowledge wrote:

If the bearer is a spontaneous spellcaster

and has that spell on her class spell list, she may use her
spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells
known.

"I am a Sorceror and I succeeded on my UMD check with a 25. I am emulating a Cleric of 5th level, specifying the Spells class feature, as per the UMD rules."

At this point, the bearer is a spontaneous spellcaster, and "has the spell on their spell list" due to UMD. Thus, "may use her
spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells
known."

You don't need a specific class' spell slots. The item states you can cast it using one of your spell slots, with no specification of what that means, as long as it is on your spell list, which appears to be a valid function to emulate with UMD via the Spells class feature.

[Please Don't Kill Me]

Serisan wrote:

I don't want this to work, but playing devil's advocate...

PRD wrote:

Class Features

The following are class features of the cleric.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields). Clerics are also proficient with the favored weapon of their deity.

Aura (Ex): A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment (see the detect evil spell for details).

Spells: A cleric casts divine spells which are drawn from the cleric spell list presented in Spell Lists.

This establishes that the Spells class feature of a Cleric is directly tied to their spell list and that Spells are a class feature.

Page of Spell Knowledge wrote:

If the bearer is a spontaneous spellcaster

and has that spell on her class spell list, she may use her
spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells
known.

"I am a Sorceror and I succeeded on my UMD check with a 25. I am emulating a Cleric of 5th level, specifying the Spells class feature, as per the UMD rules."

At this point, the bearer is a spontaneous spellcaster, and "has the spell on their spell list" due to UMD. Thus, "may use her
spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells
known."

You don't need a specific class' spell slots. The item states you can cast it using one of your spell slots, with no specification of what that means, as long as it is on your spell list, which appears to be a valid function to emulate with UMD via the Spells class feature.

Okay, the Sorcerer just added a divine spell to his spell list. Now he can cast that divine spell with all of his divine spell slots available... oh wait he doesn't have any divine spell slots to cast that new divine spell so now he has a spell he can't cast because he only has arcane spell slots.

[Serisan]

Please Don't Kill Me wrote:

Serisan wrote:

You don't need a specific class' spell slots. The item states you can cast it using one of your spell slots, with no specification of what that means, as long as it is on your spell list, which appears to be a valid function to emulate with UMD via the Spells class feature.

Okay, the Sorcerer just added a divine spell to his spell list. Now he can cast that divine spell with all of his divine spell slots available... oh wait he doesn't have any divine spell slots to cast that new divine spell so now he has a spell he can't cast because he only has arcane spell slots.

What makes a spell Arcane or Divine is not the spell itself. Ex: Cure Light Wounds. I could have just as easily said Witch or Bard and had the same effect. Only the caster determines whether a spell is Arcane or Divine.

When using the Page of Spell Knowledge, it would appear that you temporarily treat whatever spell is on it as part of your Spells Known. A quick refresher on Sorcerors:

Quote:

Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list presented in Spell Lists. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer's spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer's Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Sorcerer. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).

A sorcerer's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one she already knows. In effect, the sorcerer loses the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that she gains new spells known for the level.

Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare her spells in advance. She can cast any spell she knows at any time, assuming she has not yet used up her spells per day for that spell level.

If you have a spell as part of your Spells Known and have available spell slots of the relevant spell level, you can cast it.

Again, I don't want this to work either. There's just a significant problem with UMD in relation to these sorts of things and the wording is, unfortunately, quite bad.

[FiddlersGreen]

What UMD allows you to do is 'trick' the Page into thinking you have a certain class feature, for example oracle spellcasting. If you are successful, the spell is added to your spells known for all classes that have that spell on their spell lists (refer to the text for the item).

I think it is fair to assume that when the 'spells' class feature of the sorcerer class talks about spells known, it is referring to spells known as a sorcerer. Otherwise, if there is no distinction between spells known as a sorcerer and spells known as an oracle or bard, we'd also have to conclude that a sorcerer/oracle can cast any oracle spells he knows with sorcerer spell slots of the same level, and vice versa. I trust that no one would try to argue this, however.

In conclusion, the Page has no ability to actually add spells to class spell lists. Activating the page through UMD is not going change that.

[Serisan]

FiddlersGreen wrote:

What UMD allows you to do is 'trick' the Page into thinking you have a certain class feature, for example oracle spellcasting. If you are successful, the spell is added to your spells known for all classes that have that spell on their spell lists (refer to the text for the item).

Your rearrangement of the text distorts what it says.

Quote:

I think it is fair to assume that when the 'spells' class feature of the sorcerer class talks about spells known, it is referring to spells known as a sorcerer. Otherwise, if there is no distinction between spells known as a sorcerer and spells known as an oracle or bard, we'd also have to conclude that a sorcerer/oracle can cast any oracle spells he knows with sorcerer spell slots of the same level, and vice versa. I trust that no one would try to argue this, however.

Complete agreement. One can even cite the Mystic Theurge for further evidence.

Quote:

In conclusion, the Page has no ability to actually add spells to class spell lists. Activating the page through UMD is not going change that.

And here's where I don't follow you. If you emulate the Spells class feature of any caster, you have, for however long UMD functions, their Spell List as part of your class features. This, in and of itself, would not grant a spell known, but the Page of Spell Knowledge specifically states that you treat whatever spell is scribed on it as one of your spells known.

This is either a problem with the item or a problem with UMD. I lean towards the latter.

[Ravingdork]

I don't think it works, Serisan.

Where is this item from? I've not heard of it before, but it sounds incredible!

All those people who got their panties in a bunch over the "brokeness" of the human sorcerer favored class variant are probably goin' nuts over this thing.

Are they cheap? I so want some!

[Serisan]

Ravingdork wrote:

I don't think it work Serisan.

Where is this item from? I've not heard of it before, but it sounds incredible!

All those people who got their panties in a bunch over the "brokeness" of the human sorcerer favored class variant are probably goin' nuts over this thing.

Are they cheap? I so want some!

It's from Ultimate Equipment and it's priced as a Pearl of Power, from what I hear.

Out of curiosity, where in my argument is the flaw?

[FiddlersGreen]

Serisan wrote:

FiddlersGreen wrote:

What UMD allows you to do is 'trick' the Page into thinking you have a certain class feature, for example oracle spellcasting. If you are successful, the spell is added to your spells known for all classes that have that spell on their spell lists (refer to the text for the item).

Your rearrangement of the text distorts what it says.

Quote:

I think it is fair to assume that when the 'spells' class feature of the sorcerer class talks about spells known, it is referring to spells known as a sorcerer. Otherwise, if there is no distinction between spells known as a sorcerer and spells known as an oracle or bard, we'd also have to conclude that a sorcerer/oracle can cast any oracle spells he knows with sorcerer spell slots of the same level, and vice versa. I trust that no one would try to argue this, however.

Complete agreement. One can even cite the Mystic Theurge for further evidence.

Quote:

In conclusion, the Page has no ability to actually add spells to class spell lists. Activating the page through UMD is not going change that.

And here's where I don't follow you. If you emulate the Spells class feature of any caster, you have, for however long UMD functions, their Spell List as part of your class features. This, in and of itself, would not grant a spell known, but the Page of Spell Knowledge specifically states that you treat whatever spell is scribed on it as one of your spells known.

This is either a problem with the item or a problem with UMD. I lean towards the latter.

Ah, I see the issue on which we disagree. UMD does not give you the spell list. It only lets you activate or use an item as if you had spell list.

[Ravingdork]

Serisan wrote:

It's from Ultimate Equipment and it's priced as a Pearl of Power, from what I hear.

Out of curiosity, where in my argument is the flaw?

Thanks. Wanting that book more than ever.

I think others have already pointed out the flaw. For the most part, I find that too many people believe UMD can do more than it does.

[Sebastian Hirsch]

Sorry, but doesn anyone event think that it was the intention to allow arcane caster acces to divine spells and vice versa?
It's a really cool item and makes things a lot easier for a group that wants to have access to a certain spell, when the sorcerer is unwilling to learn the spell.

But to be fair even allow my spontaneaus casters to use pearls of power, since. I might have to change that ruling and require them to buy the more expensive item for sorcerers, since the page of spell knowledge would be too much of an advantage in this situation. Well maybe

[Serisan]

Quote:

Scroll Costs

Spell Level Cleric, Druid, Wizard Sorcerer Bard Paladin, Ranger
0 12.5 gp 12.5 gp 12.5 gp —
1st 25 gp 25 gp 25 gp 25 gp
2nd 150 gp 200 gp 200 gp 200 gp
3rd 375 gp 450 gp 525 gp 525 gp
4th 700 gp 800 gp 1,000 gp 1,000 gp
5th 1,125 gp 1,250 gp 1,625 gp —
6th 1,650 gp 1,800 gp 2,400 gp —
7th 2,275 gp 2,450 gp — —
8th 3,000 gp 3,200 gp — —
9th 3,825 gp 4,050 gp — —

Quote:

Pearl of Power

Aura strong transmutation; CL 17th
Slot none; Price
1,000 gp (1st),
4,000 gp (2nd),
9,000 gp (3rd),
16,000 gp (4th),
25,000 gp (5th),
36,000 gp (6th),
49,000 gp (7th),
64,000 gp (8th),
81,000 gp (9th)

Side note: I'm not convinced that these are a good deal when it comes to money, but as Cheapy pointed out, it does show the intrinsic value of the alt racial.

Ultimately, it comes down to this: Will you cast this spell at least 20 times from when you purchase it, or does it have a specific level/stat dependent effect you want to utilize? If so, it is probably worth it. Level 1 spells are the worst deal, by far.

Really, the more I'm thinking about this, I'm not sure I'd pay that much for the extra spell known unless the UMD nonsense works.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

Sorry, but doesn anyone event think that it was the intention to allow arcane caster acces to divine spells and vice versa?

I can say with some assurance that it was not :D

[Protoman]

This item sounds awesome! My oracle is definitely picking it up for Magic Vestment, Greater Magic Weapon, Remove Disease, and Remove Curse, to start off!

[Ravingdork]

Yeah, it closes the gap between sorcerers and wizards immensely.

Only thing left is that one-level lag.

[pad300]

As a quick note to the various debaters on the other side. In the initial quote "she may use her spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells known."

Most of you appear to say that you don't have the right kind of spell slots to cast it. I take it the samarasan alternate racial ability:

Quote:

Mystic Past Life (Su) You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. You add a number of spells equal to 1 + your spellcasting class's key ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, and so on). The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you're adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell. These spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character. The number of spells granted by this ability is set at 1st level. Changes to your ability score do not change the number of spells gained. This racial trait replaces shards of the past.

Is much less useful in your game? A sorcerer who added a bard unique spell - Mass Cacophonous Call, couldn't use it, because they don't have bard slots. Or vice versa say with a Summoner adding Fireball.

How about something like the Davrait PRC's (Pathfinder Companion: Qadira, Gateway to the East) ability:

Quote:

Spell-Fetch (Su)

Once per day, while preparing spells (or spell slots, for spontaneous casters), a daivrat can conjure a minor genie to find an unusual spell for him. The daivrat chooses one spell he does not know, such as a spell from a prohibited school or from another class’s spell list, and sends the genie to fetch magical energy matching that spell. The genie returns after 10 minutes and presents the daivrat with the matching spell energy.

If the daivrat casts spells like a wizard, for the next 24 hours he can prepare the fetched spell as if it were in his spellbook. If he casts spells like a sorcerer, for the next 24 hours he may cast the fetched spell as if he knew it.

At 2nd level, the genie can retrieve any spell of 3rd level or lower. At 5th level, the genie can retrieve any spell of 6th level or lower. At 8th level, the genie can retrieve any spell of 8th level or lower. The genie is incorporeal and has no other powers or abilities (it cannot be used to scout, send messages, and so on) and vanishes once it delivers the spell.

Preparing or casting the fetched spell is more difficult than using spells the daivrat actually knows. If the fetched spell is on the daivrat’s spellcasting class’s spell list, it is treated as 1 spell level higher than normal; otherwise it is treated as 2 spell levels higher than normal.

Note, my bolding.

How about the pathfinder Savant PRC's (Pathfinder Chronicles: Seekers of Secrets) ability:

Quote:

Esoteric Magic (Ex)

At each class level beyond 1st, the Pathfinder savant chooses a spell from any class’s spell list and thereafter treats it as if it were on the spell list of his base spellcasting classes; if his base class could not normally cast that spell, it is treated as 1 level higher. The spell’s type (arcane or divine) and save DCs function as normal for his base spellcasting class. All other restrictions of his normal spellcasting class apply. This ability does not allow other spellcasters to prepare, cast, or use spell trigger or spell completion items of esoteric spells (such as a sorcerer using a cure light wounds scroll).

Note, my bolding.

Certainly, the example in all these cases is that once it's on your personal list, a spell slot is a spell slot.

[pad300]

Did I just kill this thread?

[LazarX]

Yes.. it died of cheese overdose.

[FiddlersGreen]

I think you are missing that point that in those cases, the class spell list itself is modified, whereas an oracle using UMD to pretend you have a sorcerer's spellcasting ability to activate the page does absolutely nothing to the oracle's spell list.

[ScrollMasterRob]

This item is going to need an official FAQ or the debate will continue.

[Hunttar]

I know I am late to the discussion, but here are my own 2 CPs on Pages of Spell Knowledge on almost every issue raised in this thread.

With a simple analogy I think of the difference in Arcane and Divine Magic as similar to Alternating Current and Direct Current (AC/DC). Both are essential the same energy but they differ in how they are transmitted. And taking the analogy further the differences in sub-types of Arcane and Divine energies can be further differentiated like the electrical systems in different countries are by frequencies... 50 hz, 60hz, etc... Wizard Frequency, Bard Frequency, etc.

Page of Spell Knowledge: ... It contains the knowledge of a single
arcane or divine spell (chosen by the creator when the item is crafted).

So if found as a random piece of treasure its type; Arcane or Divine must first be determined... if its not part of gear on a specific caster class; then which you can reasonably assume it would be of that type.

I think the rule on UMD on the Ring of Revelation makes perfect sense. A Sorcerer trying to use a Divine Page of Spell Knowledge to cast a Cure Light Wounds could trick the item into working... But without spell slots of DC (Divine Current), the Knowledge on how to cast the spell contained in the Item are simply non aplicable and it wouldn't work.

If the Sorcerer does have levels of a Divine Caster of a high enough level then he could operate the item... Which would make the whole use of UMD likely pointless since they could just use it with their Divine Casting ability anyway... Alternately if they were a Mystic Theurge and had a Class ability to essentially convert AC (Arcane Current) to DC (Divine Current) then I would say they could use their Arcane Casting slot to power the item... if for some reason their Divine Casting was not of sufficiently high level to do so, or they had already expended those spell levels for the day and they were not available for use at the moment.

Now if the PAGE were created as a Bard spell of Cure Light Wounds I do not think a Sorcerer should be able to activate it. Yes, they both use AC (Arcane Current) but they could be said to differ in the frequency, cycles per second analogy. But I would say the Sorcerer could use UMD to duplicate a Bard's casting and on a success be able to momentarily modify the energy of his spell slot to that of a Bard's and allow the PAGE to operate. But the Sorcerer could not activate the PAGE directly with out UMD and just using his spell slots to power the item.

Vice versa, a Page containing the Knowledge of say Magic Missile; a spell not on a Bard's Spell list, but using AC (Arcane Current)... Then a Bard using UMD could also attempt to make use of the item and power the Page with their available spell slots.

In a related question on another forum here: On Pages of Spell Knowledge

For the sake of simplicity, there is no difference between an arcane and divine scroll or wand in Pathfinder Society Organized play. Thus a bard and cleric may both use the same scroll of cure moderate wounds.

Note the part, the page of spell knowledge is not a scroll or wand.

This makes sense to me. Pages are NOT scrolls or wands. The energy for those items are already provided in their creation; all that is required is a magical ability to "Flip the On Switch". For a PAGE you must provide the power and hence the difference. UMD allows you use... "turn on" a device powered by its own self contained power source. But it does not allow you to power it... Some items may allow you to "Power" them with the spell energy you possess, but that would be a function of the item, not UMD. Even though you may be using UMD to operate said item.

In regards to constructing a PAGE; from APG P. 282 the requirements... include feats, spells, and miscellaneous prerequisites such as level, alignment, and race or kind... etc.

A non caster with the Master Craftsman feat might be able to make one of these, but most likely not with out some assistance with all the penalties they are going to have.

+5 for not having the spell... I would argue having a scroll wouldn't cut it. It would provide the magical power in creating an item, but a PAGE specifically provides KNOWLEDGE so you can channel your energy to power the item. Other Wondrous Items, Wands, Rods, Staves, Scrolls, etc., are fully self contained ready to go items. PAGES are instructions in Do It Yourself.

The Master Craftsman NPC is also going to have more penalties if not a high enough Level and I would add also; not of the right Class, since they are not a caster class at all... This on top of the final line of the Master Craftsman description: You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item... Which I would contend PAGES are.

So if its even possible for a non-caster to create a PAGE, its not going to be easy. Not without having assistance to overcome all those penalties. An NPC is not going to be cranking these out solo without a lot of failures; greatly increasing their material costs and thereby selling price or creating cursed items instead.

That said a scenario like this could occur: A party's Cleric with Craft Wondrous Item could construct a PAGE of Spell Knowledge of Cure Light Wounds for the party's Sorcerer. But it would have to be a Bard's version, and the Sorcerer would have to use UMD to activate it since no such spell exists on the Wiz/Sor list.

Having the Creation Feat already makes the Cleric high enough level, so no penalty. But they are not a Bard, so a penalty there in the conversion; unless they have a Bard to help them in the creation. Also that PAGE would now be a BARD version of Cure Light Wounds and thereby only useable by Bards... or an Arcane Caster using UMD to fake the requirements. Or possibly a Mystic Theurge or Divine Caster with a similar Theurge like ability where they can convert Divine to Arcane energy casting.

Similarly a Sorcerer could make a PAGE of Magic Missiles for a Bard that they could use with UMD... but again no such spell exists for a Cleric. So unless the Cleric has Arcane Casting Ability as well, that PAGE would be useless for them even if they had UMD.

As for the Spell-Fetch (SU) ability to power a PAGE of a spell you can't normally cast: I think that should work. But why would you? Just have the Genie bring you the spell. You don't even need a PAGE at that point... Sorcerer's with that ability can already cast such a spell for the next 24 hours as if they knew it. A Wizard might gain a slight benefit by not having to memorize it multiple times.

Mystic Past Life (SU) and Esoteric Magic (EX) seem to be a variation to a lesser degree of the Theurge ability. They give you the ability to convert the type of spell energy you posses to the opposite (AC/DC) for that SINGLE spell. If you selected such a spell and added it to your list, you don't really need the PAGE, since you can already do that without a PAGE... If you're a caster that prepares spells and you either used the spell already or didn't Memorize it for the day but now want to cast it, then a PAGE could be beneficial. But in any case, I would say you meet the qualifications to use a PAGE of that one single Spell, since it is on your Spell List. And its not overly powerful. In the case of a spell you already used a Pearl of Power would do the same thing as a PAGE in this case; albeit only once per day.

And my final thought is on concerning the use of PAGEs. I believe most everyone agrees you need them in your possession for them to work; but I would say inside a Handy Haversack, Glove of Storing, Portable Hole, etc. would not qualify. Those are extra dimensional spaces and the effect of the PAGE is not specifically stated to have transdimensional capabilities. Just as any other continuously operating item placed in such a space does not penetrate into the real world; or can be activated once inside... That said, I would definitely invest in a water-tight Mithral scroll case, sealed book or like item to protect these incredibly valuable items from damage.

So basically I would split the difference of the arguments down the middle; likely making neither side happy, but none the less a fair and rationalized compromise I believe.

[Hunttar]

On a side note, a Scroll should be sufficient for a spontaneous caster like a Sorcerer to create a Page. A Sorcerer already knows how to channel and release magical energy naturally and would need no instruction on that. The scroll would only provide the template, circuitry, pattern, what have you... which is imprinted into the PAGE for the spontaneous caster's energy to follow and create the desired effect. Otherwise a spontaneous caster would be limited to creating only PAGEs for spells they already knew; which would be virtually useless for their own use... Maybe they could create a PAGE of a spell they know and plan to swap out later when they level. But that would be about it. And with the rules of selling magical items they couldn't even sell the PAGES for a profit.

I believe its intended a spontaneous caster with the Craft Wondrous Item Feat and able to meet the appropriate Crafting requirements be able to create a Page of Spell Knowledge for a spell on their class list; but that they do not know in this fashion.

[D'arandriel]

Don't mean to thread-jack, but this is peripherally related. If am playing an Elven Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle Archetype, could I use a page of spell knowledge to add wizard/sorcerer spells?

[LazarX]

D'arandriel wrote:

Don't mean to thread-jack, but this is peripherally related. If am playing an Elven Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle Archetype, could I use a page of spell knowledge to add wizard/sorcerer spells?

No... for the same reason that a sorcerer can't use the item to cast Raise Dead.

The item does not teach you the spell, it merely allows you to use a spell slot to cast it if you otherwise could have had it on your class list. As an Oracle you use such a page for a cleric/oracle spell, one with an arcane spell on it would still be useless to you despite the archetype.

[D'arandriel]

LazarX wrote:

D'arandriel wrote:

Don't mean to thread-jack, but this is peripherally related. If am playing an Elven Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle Archetype, could I use a page of spell knowledge to add wizard/sorcerer spells?

No... for the same reason that a sorcerer can't use the item to cast Raise Dead.

It's not quite the same. An Ancient Lorekeeper gets to add wizard/sorcerer spells to his spell list. A Sorcerer never adds Raise Dead (as far as I know)or other divine spells to his spell list.

[LazarX]

D'arandriel wrote:

LazarX wrote:

D'arandriel wrote:

Don't mean to thread-jack, but this is peripherally related. If am playing an Elven Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle Archetype, could I use a page of spell knowledge to add wizard/sorcerer spells?

No... for the same reason that a sorcerer can't use the item to cast Raise Dead.

It's not quite the same. An Ancient Lorekeeper gets to add wizard/sorcerer spells to his spell list. A Sorcerer never adds Raise Dead (as far as I know)or other divine spells to his spell list.

The Ancient Lorekeeper gets to add ONE and only ONE arcane spell for each level of bonus spell that he would otherwise get from his Mystery. Otherwise he's in the exact same boat as any other Oracle for these purposes in that he has no ability to access arcane magic outside of that.

[TGMaxMaxer]

If you want to get some perspective for this, look at the Page of Spell Knowledge, 1000gxspell level squared.

UE wrote:

If the bearer is a spontaneous spellcaster and has that spell on her class spell list, she may use her spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells known.

Ring of Spell Knowledge, 50% price increase for the same thing... but wait. It has a special caveat. If the spell -does not- appear on your class list, you have to treat it as one higher level when you purchase the ring.

UE wrote:

Arcane spells that do not appear on the wearer’s class list are treated as one level higher for all purposes (storage and casting).

The designer of the item also stated that it was not the intent for a Page to allow you to add divine spells to arcane casters.

Using UMD is a fuzzy area for this, and personally, it is not a clearly defined skill in some places. However, I would say from reading it that it would take multiple checks to get this to work, one at (DC20+caster level req for spell) to determine your caster level for the class that has it on the list, another to act as if you have divine spells slots at all, as those are different than having the list (DC 20+Caster level req for spell), and one to get the proper wisdom score (DC 25+spell level)(since all divine spells per UMD are wisdom based, even paladin spells RAW) unless you have the wisdom to cast it. Relevant links below, bolded sections for DC, italicized section so far as I can tell does let you act like you have the proper -spell list-, then again to emulate the divine casting, and getting the ability score for a divine spell. All of these things are necessary IMO because of the caveat phrase in the Ring of Spell Knowledge that I quoted above, that is not found in the Page description.

If you don't need all these checks, then an entire item (the Ring) is completely unimportant, as for less than the price difference between the page and ring you can get an item of UMD +5(level 2page) or +10(level4 page) and the ring caps out at 4.

Emulate a Class Feature:

Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

Emulate an Ability Score:

To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you're emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don't need to make this check.

[Hunttar]

A friend and I were talking about the Pages of Spell Knowledge and we can see a potentially big problem with them. The thing that makes the sorcerer powerful is versatility; they can cast any spell known, anytime they want, and can cast more spells per day than other equal level caster. This was balanced by not knowing many spells.

I can see issues in the future, especially at higher levels, with Pages of Knowledge totally ruining that balance and make selecting a Sorcerer (or other Spontaneous Caster) a no-brainer decision when it comes to selecting a caster class to play.

Of course, Wealth by Level guidelines will help with balance; if adhered to, since PAGEs are not cheap. But I am proposing a NERF that may seem severe on the surface, but really isn't so bad on close examination.

First: PAGEs become another one of those items that are sort of bonded to the character. You have to have them in your possession for 24 hours to attune to you before you can use them.

Second: You are limited to Caster Modifier x 1/2 Caster Level in total spell levels of PAGEs attuned to you at any one time. This is in keeping with other Pathfinder Item rules and limits the amount of extra spells you can have, without completely gimping the item.

So for example a Sorcerer with a 20 Cha (+5) at Level 20 could have 5 x 1/2(20) = 50 Levels in Spells from PAGEs. That still provides massive versatility. They could have several level 9 spells if they wanted, or a whole lot more spells of lower levels... I can already hear some people complaining bitterly at even this NERF; but its really not much of one. If your GM adheres anywhere closely to the Wealth by Level Guidelines, a Level 9 spell PAGE is 81K... If you bought 5 Level 9 PAGEs, that would be half your total wealth. So in reality its a very mild NERF, that still allows this item to provide the tremendous versatility that is truly a gift from the gods.

[Raelynn]

Hunttar wrote:

A friend and I were talking about the Pages of Spell Knowledge and we can see a potentially big problem with them. The thing that makes the sorcerer powerful is versatility; they can cast any spell known, anytime they want, and can cast more spells per day than other equal level caster. This was balanced by not knowing many spells.

I can see issues in the future, especially at higher levels, with Pages of Knowledge totally ruining that balance and make selecting a Sorcerer (or other Spontaneous Caster) a no-brainer decision when it comes to selecting a caster class to play.

Of course, Wealth by Level guidelines will help with balance; if adhered to, since PAGEs are not cheap. But I am proposing a NERF that may seem severe on the surface, but really isn't so bad on close examination.

First: PAGEs become another one of those items that are sort of bonded to the character. You have to have them in your possession for 24 hours to attune to you before you can use them.

Second: You are limited to Caster Modifier x 1/2 Caster Level in total spell levels of PAGEs attuned to you at any one time. This is in keeping with other Pathfinder Item rules and limits the amount of extra spells you can have, without completely gimping the item.

So for example a Sorcerer with a 20 Cha (+5) at Level 20 could have 5 x 1/2(20) = 50 Levels in Spells from PAGEs. That still provides massive versatility. They could have several level 9 spells if they wanted, or a whole lot more spells of lower levels... I can already hear some people complaining bitterly at even this NERF; but its really not much of one. If your GM adheres anywhere closely to the Wealth by Level Guidelines, a Level 9 spell PAGE is 81K... If you bought 5 Level 9 PAGEs, that would be half your total wealth. So in reality its a very mild NERF, that still allows this item to provide the tremendous versatility that is truly a gift from the gods.

You are forgetting that for the cost of a single page you could have 20 scrolls of the same level. That seems like a really unnecessary nerf.

[Quandary]

I'm with Fiddler Green (and the author of the item :-) ) on this, (hitting FAQ anyways),
but if Benchak hops back into this thread I have a question for him about the Rings of Spell Knowledge (I presume you wrote both):
Is the intent for the Ring to be 're-trainable'? I assumed so at first, but it came up that there isn't any evidence of that.
Also, what is the action/duration to teach it a spell?
All it says is "encounter a written, active, or cast version of the spell and succeed at a DC 20 Spellcraft check ".
Would encountering an active/cast spell require that you complete this 'teaching' action during the spell effect?
Thanks.

---------------------------------------------

I really like these items as well, now the Sorceror is motivated to spend on spells/learning them like Wizards, for similar benefit. People always drag out the 1/2 spell level delay, I think with this there is no substantial difference between the classes, the 1/2 level delay is a hit, but Sorcs are making up for it with their flexibility (and now much more ample spells known).

---------------------------------------------

I think something like the 24 hour 'attunement' to pages is reasonable, although it doesn't really need to be that long... just leveraging the 'learning a spell' rules that wizards use (1hr w/ Spellcraft check, failing means you need to wait 1 week) would be reasonable. If you don't have Spellcraft maxed, you may need to do it by carrying an INT Headband attuned to Spellcraft, possibly that you only wear to do this, and use another skill INT item normally.

I don't think the rest of those nerfs are justified. This is really putting Sorcerors just on par with Wizards. They previously couldn't spend any money to improve their spells known, while Wizards always could (in addition to naturally learning more for free, as long as they don't PrC out). Learning a large number of high level spells like this is going to be crazy expensive, reducing their benefit from other gear. And ultimately, it comes down to the same dynamic as action economy: it doesn't matter how many different options or actions you have, you can only do so many in one round. If a spell is ALWAYS useful that you can spam it, then the Sorceror would know it anyways. If a spell isn't very useful, then they will rarely cast it. So learning tons of spells has a diminishing return. Again, Wizards always increased their spells known with cash, and Pearls of Power are way more economic than Rings of Wizardy, Sorcerors were just really stuck with what they had before, now they are 'on par'. If a Wizard wants Spontaneous, they can get a Bonded Item and probably cast from more spells than even a Sorceror with these items, since it's cheaper to do so for the Wizard... not to mention Spontaneous Metamagic for Wizards who are so inclined.

[Illeist]

...The OP has been marked "answered in FAQ," but I can't actually find anywhere it's been answered. Anyone else have any luck?

[MichaelCullen]

Still can't find the FAQ.

[Diego Rossi]

MichaelCullen wrote:

Still can't find the FAQ.

It was the old way to clear from the queue a FAQ that could be resolved simply reading the rules o the thread.

In this instance it mean "It is so self evident that there isn't any need for a FAQ."

[MichaelCullen]

At least in my opinion RAW and RAI differ here and without a FAQ or a Dev ruling the debate over this and similar items will continue..

[LazarX]

MichaelCullen wrote:

At least in my opinion RAW and RAI differ here and without a FAQ or a Dev ruling the debate over this and similar items will continue..

I see you're of the naive opinion that a Dev ruling will end debate. You must be new here.

[Tom Sampson]

cartmanbeck wrote:

Agreed, I don't think it was ever intended

I'm afraid the entire *point* of UMD is that an item can be used in unintended ways. If a Wizard wants to cast a scroll of Wall of Stone, he doesn't need a UMD check. If a Paladin wants to use a Holy Avenger, he doesn't need a UMD check either. You can think of UMD as hacking magic items to work when they shouldn't, which is why originally it was a skill for the Rogue classes (Thief & Bard), not the casting classes, and why those of us who've seen UMD used a lot will often refer to it as Abuse Magic Device instead (because that's what it does: you only UMD to use an item in unintended ways).

If a Rogue wants to use a Holy Avenger, he can UMD it to work as the +5 Holy weapon with everything, even though he's not a Paladin. If a Wizard wants to use Incense of Meditation to maximize all his spells one day even though it's a divine spellcaster, UMD will let it work for him. If there's a magic gate built so only good people may pass while evil people get vaporized, then an evil Rogue can UMD the gate and waltz right through. None of that is an intended or proper use of the item, but UMD lets it work anyway. Which is why UMD was not meant to be on the spell list for Wizards and the like: It's all about using an item improperly, but making it work anyway. It's a skill for Rogues.

The way Page of Spell Knowledge is worded, "If the bearer is a spontaneous spellcaster and has that spell on her class spell list, she may use her spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells known." I would say UMD allows anyone to be considered a "spontaneous caster who has that spell on her class list" and therefore able to "use her spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells known." RAW, UMD works on this item, inarguably.

cartmanbeck wrote:

that UMD can emulate the ability to cast a specific spell using the "emulate a class feature" part, so I'd say no.

That holds no water. Spells are a class feature. The skill was intentionally written so that any class feature could be emulated in whatever fashion required by the item. The only "restriction" (clarification, really) is that emulating a class feature does not actually confer the ability to use the class feature in question. For instance, if my Rogue UMDs Incense of Meditation to count as a cleric spellcaster, I still don't get to actually prepare divine spells as a cleric because I'm still a rogue, so the Incense of Meditation (which affects spells I prepare for the day) would would be quite useless for my Rogue, despite his UMD.

[Diego Rossi]

UMD don't do what you think it do. It has already been explained a few times in this and other thread.

And now we have the official reply too:

Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

FAQ

New Spells Known: If I gain the ability to add a spell that is not on my spell list to my list of spells known, without adding it to my spell list, can I cast it?

No. Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class unless they are added by a class feature of that same class. For example, sorcerers add their bloodline spells to their sorcerer spell list and oracles add their mystery spells to their oracle spell list. The spell slots of a class can only be used to cast spells that appear on the spell list of that class.

[Diego Rossi]

Tom Sampson wrote:

If a Rogue wants to use a Holy Avenger, he can UMD it to work as the +5 Holy weapon with everything, even though he's not a Paladin.

PRD wrote:

Holy Avenger

DESCRIPTION

This +2 cold iron longsword becomes a +5 holy cold iron longsword in the hands of a paladin.

PRD wrote:

Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

Name the class feature that the rogue would emulate.

Hint: a class isn't a class feature.

Tom Sampson wrote:

If a Wizard wants to use Incense of Meditation to maximize all his spells one day even though it's a divine spellcaster, UMD will let it work for him.

PRD wrote:

Incense of Meditation

When a divine spellcaster lights a block of incense of meditation and then spends 8 hours praying and meditating nearby, the incense enables him to prepare all his spells as though affected by the Maximize Spell feat. However, all the spells prepared in this way are at their normal level, not at three levels higher (as with the regular metamagic feat).

Again: being a divine spellcaste isn't a class feature.

Tom Sampson wrote:

If there's a magic gate built so only good people may pass while evil people get vaporized, then an evil Rogue can UMD the gate and waltz right through.

Again, no. UMD don't change your alignment. The gate would open, but the it will vaporize the rogue.

[Buri]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Name the class feature that the rogue would emulate.

Note "spells" are listed under Class Features. The fact it's missing an ex, su, sp mark is inconsequential as many other features don't.

Wizard
Cleric

A plain reading of the text, as laid out and worded, very much so makes casting spells a class feature. I don't much care what Paizo has come out and said about it after the fact. A first time read of the text can very reasonably concluded as I've said. It's a failing of the layout if my assertion is wrong and should be changed in future printings.

[Mathius]

I think the gate would work for the rogue since that is not based on class features. UMD can allow an evil character to use a holy weapon.

It would not work the holy avenger since it does not key of alignment or class features.

UMD lets you trick the page into work for you with a DC 21 check. Page is not specific to given class but you would have to emulate a class that has that spell. Since they page adds it to the emulated class then you must use that class's spell slots to cast it.

If you have an ability that would allow you to use wizard slots to cast spells from a different list it then this trick could work.

Also is there is an item that would add to you slots per you trick that item into giving you slot and the page to into give you spell to cast from it.

[Tom Sampson]

Diego Rossi wrote:

And now we have the official reply too.

Hm. New FAQ. That would stop the Page of Spell Knowledge working this way. It would also stop Ring of Spell Knowledge from its intended purpose (casting spells not on your list). Paizo is just "fixing" the use of Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) to obtain Sorcerer spells on non-Sorcerer classes (Oracles mostly, although Inquisitor & Bard could use it too), which isn't really abusive until you combine it with Paragon Surge cheese (but the problem would be Paragon Surge, really; just delete/rewrite the damn spell and be done with it - I ban it in my games already). Personally, I would ignore this FAQ due to causing more issues than it solves (similar to how I would treat wild-blooded bloodlines as bloodlines like the subdomain/domain thing instead of going with the FAQ). I remember someone playing with a Clouded Vision Oracle who used Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) for a raven familiar then used Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) to obtain Share Senses, for instance, before this FAQ, and it worked while being very thematically appropriate. Considering the huge amount of spell-list poaching that's already around (Pathfinder Savant PrC comes to mind, among others.), this ruling doesn't do much and sounds like more of those "When I said [X] I meant [Y] because I tell you [Y] makes sense but really it's because I have balance reason [Z] in mind which is why the new [Y] interpretation creates new problems because we didn't directly address [Z] but used a round-about interpretation instead" rulings where "it's not an errata, it's just creative re-interpretation of existing rules explaining the way things always were." Rather reminds of Orwell's 1984 in the way these reinterpretations act like "X has always meant Y! X has always meant Y!" but that is neither here nor there. I just wish Paizo would be direct in issuing erratas and rules updates rather than sticking to things as much as possible then FAQing new rules interpretation/etc. that breaks something (Ring of Spell Knowledge, in this case) instead of directly addressing the issue they intend to fix.

The FAQ here has really shifted from rules clarifications to rules changes (which sometimes make the rules *less* clear) without quite admitting it. Sorry, tangent.

Diego Rossi wrote:

Name the class feature that the rogue would emulate.

Hint: a class isn't a class feature.

When you emulate a class feature, you are emulating the class along with it. Since you are bothering to make this argument, I am going to assume you have no real experience with UMD.

Quote:

Again: being a divine spellcaster isn't a class feature.

And I'm afraid you just confirmed my assumption.

Pathfinder Core Rules wrote:

Class Features

The following are class features of the cleric.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields). Clerics are also proficient with the favored weapon of their deity.

Aura (Ex): A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment (see the detect evil spell for details).

Spells: A cleric casts divine spells which are drawn from the cleric spell list presented in Spell Lists.

Spells are listed under class features, which would make sense, since they are, you know, a feature of the cleric class.

Quote:

Again, no. UMD don't change your alignment. The gate would open, but the it will vaporize the rogue.

Lets say the gate was worded like this - "For any good person, the gate will let them pass. Otherwise, if they are evil, the gate will vaporize them when they try." A Rogue can UMD the gate so that it treats them as good, and walk right through.

[Diego Rossi]

Mathius wrote:

I think the gate would work for the rogue since that is not based on class features. UMD can allow an evil character to use a holy weapon.

The gate and the holy weapon have the same problem: UMD allow you to emulate an alignment but it don't change it. The result is that you have both alignments for the magic items .

So the example gate will open and kill you.
for the holy sword it is even simple: you don't need an alignment to use it. You suffer a negative level if you wield it and you are evil.

The check isn't Good -> can use sword. UMD would help with that.
It is Evil -> 1 negative level. And UMD don't replace your alignment with a different one, it simply convince an item that you have a different alignment.

[Diego Rossi]

Tom Sampson wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

And now we have the official reply too.

Hm. New FAQ. That would stop the Page of Spell Knowledge working this way. It would also stop Ring of Spell Knowledge from its intended purpose (casting spells not on your list).

Sigh. Read the FAQ and how the ring work instead of jumping to conclusions.

PRD wrote:

A ring of spell knowledge is only a storage space; the wearer must still encounter a written, active, or cast version of the spell and succeed at a DC 20 Spellcraft check to teach the spell to the ring. Thereafter, the arcane spellcaster may cast the spell as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class' spell list.

Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

FAQ

New Spells Known: If I gain the ability to add a spell that is not on my spell list to my list of spells known, without adding it to my spell list, can I cast it?

No. Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class unless they are added by a class feature of that same class. For example, sorcerers add their bloodline spells to their sorcerer spell list and oracles add their mystery spells to their oracle spell list. The spell slots of a class can only be used to cast spells that appear on the spell list of that class.

Mark Seifter wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

And it still keeps the Ring of Spell Knowledge useful to spell-fishers!

==Aelryinth

Ring of Spell Knowledge correctly indicates that it adds the spell to your spell list, so it was never affected by this FAQ.

[Tom Sampson]

I did read both, although apparently I focused on the wrong line for the ring. (The line I focused on was "Through study, the wearer can gain the knowledge of a single spell in addition to those allotted by her class and level." rather than "Thereafter, the arcane spellcaster may cast the spell as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class’ spell list.") Kindly refrain from jumping to accusations.