Changing Druid fire spells to one of the other elements.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


So I'm playing a druid (level 5) and my character, after using fire/flame spells for most encounters and whatever else, has come to the conclusion that most, if not all, of these spells lean towards the school(s) of destruction like spells and this isn't how he wants to be seen (i.e. simply a force of destruction as he believes that is fires' main purpose).

I asked my DM if it was possible to change the fire/flame spells the Druid knows to different kinds of magic and he said that would be great. So far we came up with Ice/Frost Blade rather than Flame Blade (frost damage rather than fire damage).

Why I am posting here is to see if anyone has any other great ideas for adjusting other fire/flame spells (e.g. Flaming Sphere, Fire Sneeze, etc) to use one of the other elements.


IF you play an arctic druid archtype you can actaully do this for every spell. But you have to be 7th level I think.


Is your druid a follower of the Green Faith? Within that faith, fire isn't really seen as destructive; it has been described as "cleansing" in the Inner Sea World Guide. At first glance, fire might seem to be destructive and lacking in redeeming qualities, but that's not necessarily true. It's one of the core four elements, for one thing. Secondly, fire has a way of renewing life; old trees might burn, allowing smaller plants, grasses, and eventually more trees to grow in its place (and getting nutrients from the ash left behind in the process). I recall there being some trees that with seeds that require fire to release them from their cones or whatever. Fire is a part of the natural cycle. Finally, if you see the sun itself as a big ball of burning flame, all life depends on that. Without the sun, plants wouldn't be able to eat and grow and feed other life in turn without some sun.

Not to pour water on your idea to try and convert some core Druid spells from fire to another element, but I just thought I'd point out that, to a Druid, fire ain't a bad thing.


Fionnabhair wrote:
Not to pour water on your idea

I see what you did there...


Part of the reason particular spells do certain elemental damage is because of resistances and is actually somewhat of a balance issue. I want to say there was a feat called energy admixture(?) In 3.5 that allowed you to do a different energy type for a minor level adjustment (1 or 2, not 100% sure), couple that with a trait to reduce the adjustment for that spell and it should stay the same level (magus tricks for shocking grasp use the same trait). Also there is a spell research rule in the core rulebook for doing exactly what you want with the associated gold and time cost (think of it as crafting a spell); again depending on the element used it might deserve a level adjustment.


There is also the Element metamagic for changing spells. Not the best with it's 1 level change, but who knows: You might be able to talk about changes with your GM.


In 3.5 there was Elemental Substitution metamagic that allowed you to change the elemental type of your spells to any other elemental type (ie: Fireball does cold damage instead of fire.) It had a +0 level adjustment.

In Pathfinder, we have Elemental Spell metamagic. As you can see, it's not as good as Elemental Substitution, but it still costs more.


Only easy element changer that I know of is the admixture subschool, but that doesn't help our druid friend. If you are really worried about fire/flame just don't use it, druids have plenty of options with natures ally shapeshifting and a pile of utility/buff spells, as well as damage and debuffs that don't rely on fire.


Yeah, but if you want to be more of a spellcaster and less of a shape-shifting-self-buffer, then you're kinda screwed if you don't wanna play with fire.


Neo2151 wrote:

In 3.5 there was Elemental Substitution metamagic that allowed you to change the elemental type of your spells to any other elemental type (ie: Fireball does cold damage instead of fire.) It had a +0 level adjustment.

In Pathfinder, we have Elemental Spell metamagic. As you can see, it's not as good as Elemental Substitution, but it still costs more.

Actually that it allows you to do half damage as another type could beneficial and better in some ways, it would require 2 castings of resist energy/etc. so you would be getting some damage instead of none.


Skylancer4 wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:

In 3.5 there was Elemental Substitution metamagic that allowed you to change the elemental type of your spells to any other elemental type (ie: Fireball does cold damage instead of fire.) It had a +0 level adjustment.

In Pathfinder, we have Elemental Spell metamagic. As you can see, it's not as good as Elemental Substitution, but it still costs more.

Actually that it allows you to do half damage as another type could beneficial and better in some ways, it would require 2 castings of resist energy/etc. so you would be getting some damage instead of none.

This is one of those metas that works best as a rod.


Have you considered going merciful?

Same spell, no level adjustment, can still take out living targets, and won't burn down the forest.
One feat.

Liberty's Edge

Just a thought - you might want to check out New Paths #2: The Expanded Shaman from Open Design.

It contains a druid spell (the Shaman is essentially a spontaneous casting analog to the druid, much in the way a sorcerer is a spontaneously casting analog to wizard) called elemental blast which allows the druid to choose which elemental type your blast is. Each different type of elemental has its own damage and effect ... in your case you could just always pick an elemental type other than fire!


Skylancer4 wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:

In 3.5 there was Elemental Substitution metamagic that allowed you to change the elemental type of your spells to any other elemental type (ie: Fireball does cold damage instead of fire.) It had a +0 level adjustment.

In Pathfinder, we have Elemental Spell metamagic. As you can see, it's not as good as Elemental Substitution, but it still costs more.

Actually that it allows you to do half damage as another type could beneficial and better in some ways, it would require 2 castings of resist energy/etc. so you would be getting some damage instead of none.

True, you can split the difference with the Pathfinder version, but the downside is that when you purchase the feat, you have to pick a single element and you can only ever use that one element. In 3.X you could pick whatever element you wanted each time you prepared a spell with the metamagic.

Liberty's Edge

My suggestion requires a one-level 'dip' into Sorcerer and a restriction to one other element only.

Take a level in Sorcerer and choose a bloodline with an Arcana that lets you convert all your energy spells to a particular energy type. Bloodlines include: Elemental, Djinni, Efreeti, Marid, and Shaitan.

I will be using this idea for my next druid concept. The lightning druid, with a level in Sorcerer (Djinni) to convert all energy spells to electricity. Produce Lightning, Shock Sphere, Electric Blade, etc.

The drawback, of course, is that you are limited to a single energy type.


There's another way to do it. It's how I do it in games where I include Druids aligned to a particular element...

I just change them.

No feats, nothing fancy, I just say that all the Frost Druid's spells that normally inflict fire damage, do cold damage instead. Produce Frost, Chill Trap, Frost Blade, Frost Sphere, etc.

The list goes on. I once even changed Call Lightning over where instead of summoning bolts from the sky it shot forth icy spears from the ground.

Changed effects like these are a great way to spice up a game, since sometimes, even though you're using an existing spell, it makes a caster into a whole new type of enemy. The spells are 'new' but they're still the same. Because you haven't seen it before it makes it interesting and more fun.

If you're a GM, don't just hurl fireballs, tailor them to suit the NPC. I've hurled flaming skulls that laughed maniacally, the lower jaw moving a mile a minute, until it hit the PCs and exploded into a fireball.

A lightning bolt that spirals up from the floor around the caster, coiling down his arm until is flies towards the PCs taking the shape of an electric serpent. Magic missiles the flutter like humming birds before streaking off to attack, dissolving on impact.

Mess with their heads. Keep them asking and guessing 'what the hell was that?' Go above and beyond the prerequisite 15 pieces of flair. Your players will thank you.

There doesn't always need to be a mechanical explanation for everything, BUT, in the case of spell switching (like fire to frost, or lightning, or what have you) the GM could rule that you can switch your descriptors at character creation (or use an archtype). If you want to play a Frost Druid, then you may, but you need to use the Elemental Spell feat if you expect to change them back (to fire for example). You shouldn't be able to just switch between elements all willy-nilly, that's what the Elemental Spell feat is for.


I agree fluff is fluff and easy enough to change BUT certain energy types are markedly more useful and effective than others so that doesn't work out in some ways (read balance issues). It isn't always that simple.


Neo2151 wrote:


True, you can split the difference with the Pathfinder version, but the downside is that when you purchase the feat, you have to pick a single element and you can only ever use that one element. In 3.X you could pick whatever element you wanted each time you prepared a spell with the metamagic.

It's always been that way.

"Energy Substitution - Complete Arcane, p79"

Energy Substitution - Complete Arcane, p79 wrote:

Benefit

Choose one type of energy (acid, cold, electricity, or fire). You can then modify any spell with an energy descriptor to use the chosen type of energy instead. An energy substituted spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level. The spell's descriptor changes to the new energy type--for example, a fi reball composed of cold energy is an evocation [cold] spell.
Special
You can gain this feat multiple times, choosing a different type of energy each time.

The 3.0 version just let you take sonic as well. That said, you don't need anything else if you picked sonic.

EDIT: You could work with your GM to get you a special item (artifact maybe?) that lets you switch out energy descriptors like the Wizard's special ability. Sort of like nature saying you don't just have to use fire or maybe you make it yourself. Not very familiar with the druid list but I know they get a lot of lightning too.


For my money, Hartbaine has it right. I would look at it from a "flavor" viewpoint. Instead of a flaming sphere why not have a corrosive sphere (earth element) with acidic vapours instead of flames? Same damage, same knock down and roll-over, no forest fire to extinguish. We have done this in my own group on occasion and it works fine.

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