RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Imagine that you're the magistrate of a small city, and you've captured a sorcerer who has been causing all sorts of troubles; he's been stealing with mage hand, or setting things on fire with spark, and in general performing criminal mischief with his spells or bloodline powers. He's been caught before, and given the lash or the stocks, but he hasn't learned, and he remains up to his tricks as soon as he's let go. The last time you caught him, he managed to escape through the use of his magic, but now you've got him again and you are determined that this will be the last time he is going to be a problem.
Now, assume, for the sake of argument, that you are not simply going to execute him, either lawfully or by turning a blind eye while someone gets their hands dirty on your behalf. Either your city's laws prohibit it, or his crimes--while troublesome--don't justify execution, or you have any other reason not to see him dead. You know that you can't simply lock him up, because he'll find a way to get free again. Exile would simply make him someone else's problem, and you're unwilling to foist him onto your neighboring cities. If only you could... get rid of his magic!
How would you do it? Is there a means, within the current Pathfinder system, to do so? (I seriously doubt that, aside from destroying an artifact with mage's disjunction.) Do you think this is something which should be possible at all? If so, how difficult should it be? Should there be a way to reverse it?
This is primarily a thought experiment--I've been thinking about crime and punishment in a world that has wizards and clerics walking the streets--so I'm not really looking for complete, coherent systems, but I am interested in seeing what sorts of ideas people have about this subject. Please, tell me what you think!
This question entered my mind as well. "If magic-blooded citizens existed in the world, what conventions would exist for punishing their misdeeds?"
This thread might be of interest to you:
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5oho&page=1?How-to-Build-a-Prison-for-a-Sor cerer
There are lots of things in our fantasy world of Golarion that beg such questions.
Chop off his fingers. No fingers, no somatic components. Most of his spells just became a little useless. Sure, he can burn a feat on Still Spell... eventually. Good luck getting the levels needed to take another feat with only spells with no somatic components, presuming he has any on his spell list. And of course promise him swift incarceration with a tougher punishment if he's ever caught with a metamagic rod, or if he goes to a cleric and gets a regenerate. A Knight in one of my campaigns did this to a bunch of criminal sorcs she captured.
If you're feeling generous (or the totality of the above is too close to non-Good for this magistrate's tastes), leave him an index finger and thumb on each hand. That'll let him still use his hands for day to day tasks, but I'd personally rule that it's not enough to do the delicate, complex motions required for spellcasting.
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Geas/Quest. Removal of body parts. Removal of tongue. Magic item that zaps them anytime they start to cast. etc etc.
- Gauss
Dragon Age comes to mind, and how they dealt with mages in it
Dragon Age comes to mind, and how they dealt with mages in it
Explain for those of us who haven't played?
- A cursed item that brings his casting stat down to 9. Preferably one that, if removed, "phones home". Or detonates.
- A permanent Antimagic Field on the character - not only is his own magic gone, other magic users will shun him too.
- A Spellblight. Or several.
I though mainly about Tranquils, but if mages in a region cause much unrest/problems then I can see how it would result in a negative backslash on all spellcasters with harsh and restrictive laws.
Ok, I know this is not even a little RAW, but I like it.
You want to punish the sorcerer in an interesting way? Give him a custom cursed item that projects an antimagic field around just him. This would neutralize his natural abilities entirely, but actually grant him immunity to magic. How does he remove it? He can't! He is immune to the Remove Curse spell! Now he lives his life completely free of magic, but also immune to it. He could become an awesome witch hunter by leveling in something else, but those levels already put into sorcerer are lost to him. I like this as a story arc, but that's just my two copper.
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I've introduced a magic item in my campaign world that is used on criminal or enslaved spellcasters: spellshackles.
When worn, spellshackles jolts a caster with magical energy whenever she attempts to cast a spell. The damage dealt is 1d6 + 1d6 per spell level. Since this counts as being injured while casting, the wearer must then make a concentration check (DC 10 + damage taken + spell level) or lose the spell.
The bracers can only be removed by a remove curse spell cast by someone not wearing them.
Shalmdi: Im not sure a custom cursed item that projects an antimagic field would work. However, a major spellblight would work. There is one spellblight that causes a spellcaster to make a spell resistance check just to cast a spell.
- Gauss
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Shalmdi: Im not sure a custom cursed item that projects an antimagic field would work.
I say to you, "bah!" Your accurate observation that it will not work based on your "rules" does not dissuade me from my desire to use said thing! I don't play in a fantastical world NOT to procure ridiculous magic items. You may keep your blighted spells. Good day!
Seriously though, I did point out it was illegal from the start :)
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1) Brand on the forehead.
2) loss of hand.
3) loss of life.
Societies would not tolerate the abuse of magic and the creation of expensive items to stop it wouldn't really be effective due to the lack of ability to apply it on a large scale.
If t hey were petty offenders, brand then hand then life. If serious offender hand and life, or just kill 'em.
With great power comes great responsibility and with the abuse of that power comes great punishment.
BUT! In the light of what the OP actually asked. lol :)
The hardest part is cost. How much is the gov't willing to spend to stop the guy without just using his head for a bowling ball? Thats the real problem. Cost. Sure Anti-magic field items are all well and good until you price the dang thing. The king says "sure whats the tab?" and then says "HOLY )(@#$()*#. Forget that, OFF WITH HIS HEAD!"
So Lesser Geas seems to work though it doesn't stop the guy from actually *doing* it it just makes it hurt when he does.. and 24 hours later he's not even hurt anymore.
What about a nice handy non-magical means though?
"I sentence thee be BRANTED on the FOREHEAD with a hot iron in the symbol customary to our law breakers and to two years of wearing Splint Mail and carrying a Tower Shield, both of which will be provided by the city and both of which you shall pay for out of your own pocket. If you are caught outside of this armor and or without this shield then you shall have one hand removed. You are excused for one hour each day during which we highly recommend you bathe. If you are caught casting a spell of any kind despite these restrictions you will lose your hand. If you cast two spells, you will lose both hands."
tha. end.
Why? Splint mail is 40% AMF and Tower Shield is 50% AMF. 10% chance to cast a spell. Not just that but they have a -17 to *lots and lots* of checks unless they happen to be proficient in both of those pieces of equipment. I'd probably tack on a "locked gauntlet" and stick the shield to it (and thus, to him) as well just for giggles. Oh and the combo also weighs 90 lbs and restricts the guy to 20ft (just in case he happens to have the strength).
Long story short- sure he can cast non-somatic spells anyway but he's not running anywhere or hitting anyone and if he takes off that armor the brand'll be a pretty good designation that he's a dangerous person to watch out for. Total cost? 250gp plus the nominal fee of having his forehead branded. and he pays for both. (and court costs. ha!)
Not to mention having fun things written on the shield or armor as well- by the guards who provided it of course. "I came to Magnimar and all I got was this lousey tower shield" and other funsies.
(note halfplate works just as well in all cases but is actually a good deal more expensive, so if the guy was wealth and/or really mouthy you could go that route. just weld the mouth shut on the helm as additional punishment.)
And if they are really a pain in the arse make them pay to make it adamantine. Why? Because that doubles the weight and adds 20,000 to the cost. (15k for heavy armor 5k for light- assuming the shield counts as "light".
I personally would stay away from "magic" as the way to fix it- primarly just because of cost. An effective means of solving the problem would necessarily involve it being cheap, otherwise it becomes so impractical as to be worthless.
(of course- the higher level the offender the more wealth they should have to offset it, but also the higher level the harder they are to catch anyway and the more damage they would do- making it more likely that execution was the preferred method of dealing with them afterall..)
-S
Bestow Curse...repeatedly. Zap his CHA. If other tricks are about, zap other stats, as well. Use the fantastic bit about making up your own curses to make him, for example, be afraid of his own spells.
Geas him into disjoining a relic. It'd get spendy though. Also risk deific involvement.
Geas to wear a Robe of Powerlessness.
-TimD
That wouldn't do anything against Empyreal sorcerers who cast off wisdom.
Target creature's Intelligence and Charisma scores each drop to 1. The affected creature is unable to use Intelligence- or Charisma-based skills, cast spells, understand language, or communicate coherently. Still, it knows who its friends are and can follow them and even protect them. The subject remains in this state until a heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish spell is used to cancel the effect of the feeblemind. A creature that can cast arcane spells, such as a sorcerer or a wizard, takes a –4 penalty on its saving throw.
It calls out it stops spell casting.
Ah. I didn't read the entire description.
Serisan: Bestow Curse only works once per stat.
Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).
- Gauss
I'm not sure I have a good suggestion that isn't cruel, but those times were cruel, were they not? The loss of a finger or two per infracttion should deter him, or send him to other regions.
For the others making suggestion, think about what options those in a town would have. The very highest level townsperson would likely be 3rd, possibly 4th. Mundane methods are probably required.
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Flesh to Stone. Puts them in a stony statue prison since they are inert and mindless, plus you have decoration. If you really want to make it crazier, you can then turn that statue into an animated object and make an army of animated prisoners at your beck and call. How cool is that?
I have this in a game where convicted mages are forced to wear the Mask of the Basilisk, turning them into stone statues. Then the Stone King animates them and uses them as his own personal guard. Makes for a good story when the PCs have to stop him from going mad and turning everyone to stone.
Serisan: Bestow Curse only works once per stat.
Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).- Gauss
Well aware. Still, a -4 to a casting stat is pretty crippling, especially in NPC blocks, where you typically cut the target down to 10 or 11 in their casting stat. Granted, you're still looking at some annoyance there.
This is why you use the custom curse options.
"The thought of your own magic strikes fear in your heart."
"Your blood is a sickness and its evidence makes you ill."
The "repeatedly" bit was in reference to using multiple different Bestow Curse castings. Each one does have to be different, but you can get pretty creative with the spell.
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Well, although it's a high start-up cost, once the cost is paid, you've got it pretty well made.
1) Goggles that bestow constant discern lies and detect thoughts. Make sure it works by having the sorcerer tell a number of obvious lies.
2) Set the sorcerer into a zone of truth. Make sure that it works.
3) Have a ring that curses people who where it when they say the appropriate command words with a penalty to will-saves (-4), amnesia insanity, and the like, but breaks those same curses when someone else says the command words.
--> 3a) If you allow 3.5 items, get a thought bottle first, and give it to the sorcerer or other caster to allow them to store their memories there.
4) Have a helm of modify memory, hypnotism, and atonement that you place on the subject. Establish a life and a new life and back story for them (preferably similar to their old life).
--> 4a) If the thought bottle was allowed first, the use modify memory on the bottle (or enchant the bottle that as an auto-function) such that in their memories they feel great guilt, shame, and regret over every action within their memory that brought them to this state. This isn't really necessary, but when tied in with step four (instead of the helmet) it allows you to have their actual memories, but with altered emotional states. Always end the memories with their time of "incarceration" - they know that this part is fake, but it lets them "think things over" (and a hypnotic suggestion to help think them over in your way), and erase the memory of the actual items themselves.
After the goggles, the ring, the zone, and the helm (or thought bottle) are established, you only need the one set. It takes maybe five minutes per prisoner. You have an insta-reformed ex-criminal. Bonus: this same method can be used by good or bad!
Also, while, hypnotism might not work on higher-level baddies, depending on the GM, an enervation or two, or something similar might be appropriate to allow it function. If not, you'll just have to go with the atonement option for insta-reform.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Taking away someone's ability to cast magic, huh?
These recommendations and thought experiments are interesting, and useful, but yeah, I was originally thinking of something along the lines of the Tranquil in Dragon Age, or stilling in The Wheel of Time. Where you don't need to go through a fancy rigamarole to keep someone imprisoned because you've cut them off at the source.
That's not to say the fancy rigamarole isn't also useful. The idea of a high-security magic prison using some of these tricks is delightful.
Is it possible to curse someone to make them incapable of spell casting?
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Is it possible to curse someone to make them incapable of spell casting?
If their casting stat is 15 or lower, yes. Bestow Curse lets you drop a score by 6 points, which means you can take away their casting ability since they need a 10 just to cast 0-levels. If the 3.5 spell Bestow Curse, Greater is in play, you can drop one score all the way to 1 but, at that point, you may as well just Feeblemind them.
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Are the laws of the society in your campaign in any way based on medieval society? Penalties for law breakers were pretty brutal compared to today. For stealing or destruction of property, the penalty could be as light as time in the stocks or flogging (and paying restitution and/or fines). At worse, it could result in imprisonment or death. The severity of the punishment would most likely be based on what was stolen, whom it was stolen from, and how fair the person judging was.
A merciful judge may give the sorcerer a second chance after paying restitution, but the second offense would not only be theft or destruction but also a violation of the judges decree. At that point, he would likely be imprisoned (or put to death of the violation was sever enough).
Some of the suggestions above involve higher level spell casters. The ideas are good, but what if there are no 6th, 9th, or 11th level casters around to cast these spells? Unfortunately, Pathfinder does not give mundane people or low level casters many options for capturing and controlling other casters (especially sorcerers). If this is a problem for your campaign, you may want to come up with some for your campaign (some may fall outside of the rules). Here are a few examples:
- It is probably common knowledge that binding a caster's hands and gagging his mouth will inhibit casting (though it may not be common knowledge that feats can counter this).
- The caster may need to be continually drugged so he is too confused to cast.
- There may be a specific drug that only inhibits casting (Jordan does this in The Wheel of Time series)
- Have a low level ritual that inhibits casting (protective runes etched in the walls inside the prison cell).
- You could say that shackles or a collar made out of a particular metal inhibits casting (cold iron? mithral?)
Anyway, just my thoughts on it...
Is it possible to curse someone to make them incapable of spell casting?If their casting stat is 15 or lower, yes. Bestow Curse lets you drop a score by 6 points, which means you can take away their casting ability since they need a 10 just to cast 0-levels. If the 3.5 spell Bestow Curse, Greater is in play, you can drop one score all the way to 1 but, at that point, you may as well just Feeblemind them.
Even if they had an 18 giving them a -6 to their casting stat wouldn't remove their casting ability, but it would severely gimp it. Someone who could cast 8th level spells not being limited to 2nd. May be enough depending on the nature of their magical crime.
You could stack it with a Mark of Justice.
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Imagine that you're the magistrate of a small city, and you've captured a sorcerer who has been causing all sorts of troubles;
Now, assume, for the sake of argument, that you are not simply going to execute him...You know that you can't simply lock him up, because he'll find a way to get free again. Exile would simply make him someone else's problem, and you're unwilling to foist him onto your neighboring cities. If only you could... get rid of his magic!
How would you do it? Is there a means, within the current Pathfinder system, to do so?
It depends how draconian you want your lawful system to be. Most suggestions in this thread are pretty brutal. Sure, the sorcerer won't be dead, but he won't really be alive either. Losing pieces of a limb and the ability that made the sorcerer special will cause extreme mental trauma. May as well be dead for all the usefulness that person will bring to the community.
So, what constructive criticism can I offer? ;)
There is the heavy-handed, "father knows best", method: "Son, you have a gift but you're squandering it. You're also a growing danger to the community. We're offering you three choices: 1) Join the City Guard, be trained in your powers, and be there in times of peace and war. You'll be paid well and respected. 2)We'll find you an adventuring group to take you on, and report on your 'progress'. 3) Lose a hand and receive apprenticeship in an appropriate craft/job.
There is the light approach: "Tell us want's on your mind, let's talk about your decisions. Why do you do what you do? Were here to help."
There is the 'you've gone too far' approach: "You have caused enough damage and trouble with your powers. You owe the city XXX gold in damages, and since you cannot pay you will be sold to pay off your debts."
(Indentured servitude for the win. The buyer will be made aware of the sorcerer's powers and who knows what the buyer will do!]
There would also be the option to go adventuring to pay off the debt, with a time limit imposed and worse consequences should they renege on the deal.
Cheers!
I'm curious -- if you somehow drain a Sorcerer's blood, does he have spellcasting abilities anymore? Perhaps an alchemist on-staff can rig something up akin to a blood transfusion. If the sorcerer's power is in his blood, and you take it away (replacing it to keep him alive), he'd need to bleed out nearly completely before his body would re-produce enough of his own blood to regain spellcasting. I'd assume. I could be completely wrong.
Most low-level Wizards (the kind that would still be getting into petty mischief), it seems, are rather easily handled by locking them up without their spellbooks (certain feats aside).
The big issue with all of the traditional solutions (curses, petrification, even death) in dealing with high level characters/spellcasters is that for those with the right resources, they can be temporary solutions (they can all be reversed by third parties fairly easily.). So one dimension I think any discussion like this should have is that those who give aid to spellcasters marked for punishments should they themselves be marked for similar punishments. So like, for example, a cleric who removes a curse on an outlaw mage may himself receive a curse or some kind of other punishment. Perhaps clerics who heal outlaw spellcasters may find the tax-exempt status of their churches revoked, for example? Basically, applying social pressures so that spellcasters stripped of their powers have harder times finding places to get their punishments removed.
Barring that, perhaps domination would be in order so that the spellcaster would be compliant with not casting his spells, and the penal system wouldn't have to worry about him escaping of his own accord as much?
That's more or less what I was suggesting above, only with less domination and more subtle long-lasting mind alteration. While removing spellcasting is the goal, that's very hard to do while leaving someone alive (and there are already plenty of suggestions for that). Ergo: change the person.