I was playing around with a spring attacking ranger/Shadowdancer build recently, when an idea came to me.
Generally with a reach weapon, once an opponent moves adjacent to you, you take a 5ft step back, and full attack.
Pushing assault feat allows you to sacrifice your extra power attack damage to push an opponent back 5ft.
So, say an opponent manages to get adjacent to you. You use you spiked gauntlet (possibly in conjunction with furious focus) to power attack, and sacrifice the extra damage, pushing you opponent back 5ft... Which puts them in range of your reach weapon. You finish the full attack sequence with said reach weapon (instead of the gauntlet). After your full attack, you take your free 5ft step back.
Your opponent is now 15 ft away from you, and can no longer merely make a 5 ft step, then full attack while adjacent to you. They must take a move action instead, guaranteeing only a single attack against you, as opposed to a full attack action. Rinse and repeat, you get a full attack action, your opponent makes a move action, then attack action.
Do I have this right? I never really see builds using this, but it seems to be quite good. Am I missing something?
Thanks!
That's bloody brilliant, mate. Sounds like an excellent build for an NPC component in an encounter.
The problem with this is that pushing assault only works with two-handed weapons. So it won't work with your gauntlet.
Although now that there are some ways to throw two-handed weapons, it could be fun to just push enemies around the field...
Ah, I figured i was missing something. Thanks cheapy. Though would the pole arm master (or whichever archetype) that allows the use of a reach weapon in adjacent squares work? Short haft? Maybe that's 3.5...
Polearm fighter could, with a -4 to hit.
Or anyone with a Fighter's Fork, found in UE.
You're not mentioning the AoO your opponent provokes trying to get to you without the 5-foot step. This is awesome. I'll be building a fighter around this concept for my next set of encounters.
I felt the mention of the AoO's were irrelevant to the working of the feat... So basically, assumed they were automatically misses. Too bad it won't work with the gauntlet, though I'm sure there is a way to make it work properly... I just can't think of it.
Polearm fighter could, with a -4 to hit.
Or anyone with a Fighter's Fork, found in UE.
With furious focus, the polearm fighter wouldn't be too bad... Sucking up -4 on top of power attack would hurt though.
As for fighters fork... Never even noticed its existence. Oops. Probably because I don't have ultimate equipment yet. That would have helped my perception check.
Sorry. Deleted my post when I realized it didn't work. Polearm Master didn't work because switching grips is an immediate action and you only get one of those a round.
Adding the Lunge feat, however, makes this combo work with a greatsword or other normal two-handed weapon.
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If you build a Phalanx Fighter you would have a shield and a polearm so you just bash with the shield which (when feated) will give you a free Bullrush to knock back. Same effect that you are going for here and if you want to add pushing assault and go from there to push them back a total of 10 ft. or more you totally can.
Furious Focus would remove the power attack penalty from the first power attack in the round, so the -4 from Polearm Master is lessened to some extent.
The problem I have with bullrush is that it is based on CMB/CMD... It doesn't work all the time, especially at higher levels. The lovely thing about pushing assault is that it works as long as you hit: and with furious focus (or even without it) should almost every time with your primary attack.
The problem I have with bullrush is that it is based on CMB/CMD... It doesn't work all the time, especially at higher levels. The lovely thing about pushing assault is that it works as long as you hit: and with furious focus (or even without it) should almost every time with your primary attack.
But taking the power attack penalty on top of the penalty for shortening your reach would be reason enough to take furious focus, I think. Giving up power attack damage with a two-handed weapon becomes a huge trade-off quickly, so the free bull rush is earned, IMO. I mean, a 4th level fighter is trading 6 damage (flat) to push the target back. With furious focus, that 6 damage was 100% profit.
Opportunity costs and whatnot.
The problem I have with bullrush is that it is based on CMB/CMD... It doesn't work all the time, especially at higher levels. The lovely thing about pushing assault is that it works as long as you hit: and with furious focus (or even without it) should almost every time with your primary attack.But taking the power attack penalty on top of the penalty for shortening your reach would be reason enough to take furious focus, I think. Giving up power attack damage with a two-handed weapon becomes a huge trade-off quickly, so the free bull rush is earned, IMO. I mean, a 4th level fighter is trading 6 damage (flat) to push the target back. With furious focus, that 6 damage was 100% profit.
Opportunity costs and whatnot.
Agreed. Opportunity costs indeed. I would prefer an almost guaranteed 5ft push effect for the loss of some damage, as opposed to a risky combat maneuver that is entirely wasted should you fail. At early levels CMB and CMD work, but at later levels it gets more difficult to achieve. That's where I'm coming from, is all.
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Agreed. Opportunity costs indeed. I would prefer an almost guaranteed 5ft push effect for the loss of some damage, as opposed to a risky combat maneuver that is entirely wasted should you fail. At early levels CMB and CMD work, but at later levels it gets more difficult to achieve. That's where I'm coming from, is all.The problem I have with bullrush is that it is based on CMB/CMD... It doesn't work all the time, especially at higher levels. The lovely thing about pushing assault is that it works as long as you hit: and with furious focus (or even without it) should almost every time with your primary attack.But taking the power attack penalty on top of the penalty for shortening your reach would be reason enough to take furious focus, I think. Giving up power attack damage with a two-handed weapon becomes a huge trade-off quickly, so the free bull rush is earned, IMO. I mean, a 4th level fighter is trading 6 damage (flat) to push the target back. With furious focus, that 6 damage was 100% profit.
Opportunity costs and whatnot.
But thats the thing...if you go into the Shield Bash chain then the heavy bashing shield spike shield is a 2d6 weapon that you use TWF so you are doing damage and the Bull Rush even if you don't succeed at the CMB attempt you still did damage!
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But thats the thing...if you go into the Shield Bash chain then the heavy bashing shield spike shield is a 2d6 weapon that you use TWF so you are doing damage and the Bull Rush even if you don't succeed at the CMB attempt you still did damage!Agreed. Opportunity costs indeed. I would prefer an almost guaranteed 5ft push effect for the loss of some damage, as opposed to a risky combat maneuver that is entirely wasted should you fail. At early levels CMB and CMD work, but at later levels it gets more difficult to achieve. That's where I'm coming from, is all.The problem I have with bullrush is that it is based on CMB/CMD... It doesn't work all the time, especially at higher levels. The lovely thing about pushing assault is that it works as long as you hit: and with furious focus (or even without it) should almost every time with your primary attack.But taking the power attack penalty on top of the penalty for shortening your reach would be reason enough to take furious focus, I think. Giving up power attack damage with a two-handed weapon becomes a huge trade-off quickly, so the free bull rush is earned, IMO. I mean, a 4th level fighter is trading 6 damage (flat) to push the target back. With furious focus, that 6 damage was 100% profit.
Opportunity costs and whatnot.
..and...we're back to -4 to hit from TWF w/ one-handed weapons.
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Right, the only "to hit" fighters worry about is their chance "to hit it" with the ladies.
What about the Catch off Guard feat? Use the polearm as an improvised weapon (without the -4 penalty), use Pushing Assault in conjunction with Furious Focus (or not), etc.?
Seems like that works properly?
Why not just use Armor Spikes?
Because...
say you have a glaive. You full attack a foe. Said foe 5 ft steps in, taking an AoO. Now adjacent, he full attacks you in return. With armor spikes or a spiked gauntlet... you hit him back, theres a 5 ft step, and he full attacks you again?
with Pushing Assault and catch of guard... You full attack with your glaive, the guy 5ft steps in, full attacks. You use Catch of Guard with your polearm in conjunction with Pushing Assault. you give up your extra Pawer Attack damage, and instead push him back 5ft... right into reach of your glaive. After finishing your full attack with the glaive, you 5 ft step back.
Your foe is now 15ft away, and must make a move action, then an attack action, while you continue to get full attacks with the above strategy. He gets one attack, you get 1-4, depending on level.
I've already explained all of this in my first post, and Cheapy pointed out that Pushing Assault only works with 2 handed weapons, which neither a spiked gauntlet or armor spikes are... sadly. ( I think armor spikes could be IRL, but RAW is no...)
I really like this idea. But as a variant, how about Pushing Assault used in conjunction with Lunge. Start your round with a 5' step back and hit the enemy with a pushing assault from your polearm, then lunge for your the rest of your full attack.
Or for more fun, combine the methods. Catch-Off-Guard for your improvised quarterstaff (pushing assault), Hit with polearm as normal (push again) then lunge for another strike (third push) then take your 5'. For added kicks, declare a pushing assault on your AoO preventing them from even getting their standard attack.
I came up with this build awhile back.
Barbarians do a nice job of it if they smash the ground making it difficult terrain (Ground Breaker, APG and Greater Ground Breaker, UC). Knock the target back and they cannot return without burning a move action.
With Lunge you dont need a Polearm although that can be nice. With a Polearm Master/Barbarian with lunge combo you could reasonably keep bad guys out of a 15foot radius and deny them the ability to make a full attack. (They cannot take a 5 foot step).
Unfortunately smashing the ground out to a 15foot radius would require 6th, 8th, and 10th level rage powers being devoted to Ground Breaker+.
If you dont want the combo either Polearm Master or a Barbarian could be enough.
Feats/abilities of interest:
Power Attack (prereq)
Pushing Assault (duh)
Nimble Moves (to keep your 5' step in your self created difficult terrain).
Acrobatic Steps (increased nimble moves distance to 20', not really that necessary imo).
Lunge (as mentioned before)
Furious Focus (increases accuracy for that first 5', might not be necessary)
Ground Breaker/Greater Ground Breaker (rage ability for barbarian version)
Reckless Abandon (awesome barbarian ability if you don't care about AC)
Guarded Stance (helpful if losing AC due to Lunge or Reckless Abandon)
Come and Get me (Pushing Assault+come and get me might = no attacks suffered if the enemy only has a 5' reach because your attack is resolved before the enemies attack).
While the damage output of this build is not the 'highest' the area control factor is freaking awesome if you want to go that route.
- Gauss
Pushing assault requires two handed weapon attacks. Since it is a 2handed weapon 'attack' 2handed weapons used in TWF mode do not qualify. 2handed weapons used in 1handed mode do not qualify either.
When you hit a creature your size or smaller with a two-handed weapon attack modified by the Power Attack feat, you can choose to push the target 5 feet directly away from you instead of dealing the extra damage from Power Attack.
- Gauss
BBT: In the hands of a medium character I guess so. I don't make the rules. :)
Personally, I do not see the whip as a melee weapon. I think it is more of a ranged weapon that you hang on to. But, it isnt written that way.
- Gauss
BBT: Except Titan Mauler doesnt work. *shrugs*
- Gauss
Ahhh I see your point. I didnt check the size on the Scorpion Whip.
- Gauss
Huge Scorpion whip. Damn, that would be some reach.
BBT is correct. Weapon size changes do not change the reach of a weapon.
- Gauss
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Could this not be done with a Kusarigama?
First off, I believe the Kusarigama's a double weapon, which means it's essentially two one handed weapons, but I could be wrong here. This is why I suggested the Dorn Dergar with the Darting Viper feat though. The benefit of the Dorn Dergar is that it's a two handed weapon. Unlike the Meteor Hammer (another 2-handed 5'/10' weapon) is that where the meteor hammer says you have to decide your stance as a swift action at the beginning of the round, Darting Viper allows you to switch stances as a swift action. Since swift actions are treated as free actions (with the exception that you only get one), you may swift action in the middle of a full attack action (just as you can take free actions during a full attack action).
The end result then would be exactly what was described: hit once at 5' using punishing assault to push your opponent backwards. Follow that up with a swift action to change your weapon from 5' to 10' mode. Smack the opponent for attacks 2+ at 10'. Five foot step at the end of the round.
The problem with the Dorn Dergar with Darting Viper is that what do you do on Round 2?
So you happened to start with your reach weapon held close (for some reason) and you get charged. On your turn, you use Pushing Assault to knock your opponent away 5 feet. You then use your swift action to extend your reach, then finish your iteratives on him at 10 feet. Finally you take your 5-foot step back. You end your turn with your polearm extended and your opponent 15 feet away.
On round two, the opponent charges again (taking the AoO) and is now adjacent to you. However, your Dorn Dergar can't attack adjacent enemies right now, since your polearm is extended, so you use your swift action to change your grip and pull it close. You can then use Pushing Assault to knock him away... but you are out of swift actions to extend your reach again to finish your iterative attacks. Your trick doesn't work this round.
However, instead of the Dorn Dergar and Darting Viper, I've picked up a greatsword and Lunge. On round 1, things look the same as with the Dorn Dergar, except I have a swift action I can spend on something else.
On round 2, I don't get the AoO since I don't threaten at reach, but I can use my trick again, since activating Lunge is a free action and gives me inclusive reach.
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The problem with the Dorn Dergar with Darting Viper is that what do you do on Round 2?
So you happened to start with your reach weapon held close (for some reason) and you get charged. On your turn, you use Pushing Assault to knock your opponent away 5 feet. You then use your swift action to extend your reach, then finish your iteratives on him at 10 feet. Finally you take your 5-foot step back. You end your turn with your polearm extended and your opponent 15 feet away.
On round two, the opponent charges again (taking the AoO) and is now adjacent to you. However, your Dorn Dergar can't attack adjacent enemies right now, since your polearm is extended, so you use your swift action to change your grip and pull it close. You can then use Pushing Assault to knock him away... but you are out of swift actions to extend your reach again to finish your iterative attacks. Your trick doesn't work this round.
However, instead of the Dorn Dergar and Darting Viper, I've picked up a greatsword and Lunge. On round 1, things look the same as with the Dorn Dergar, except I have a swift action I can spend on something else.
On round 2, I don't get the AoO since I don't threaten at reach, but I can use my trick again, since activating Lunge is a free action and gives me inclusive reach.
On round 2 you trip him with your AoO.
Double Weapons cannot be used for Pushing assault if you are using them as a double weapon. If you switch to a two-handed attack then yes you can. Pushing Assault does not require 2handed weapons, it requires a 2handed attack.
- Gauss
BBT: The feat Pushing Assault does not check if it is a two-handed weapon. It checks if it is a two-handed attack.
A two-handed weapon being used for two weapon fighting is not a two-handed attack. It may be used for a two-handed attack but then it cannot be used in two-weapon fighting mode.
- Gauss
BBT: I am unsure of why you think Double is meaningless. Pushing Assault requires a two-weapon attack.
One-handed weapons, Double weapons used in two-weapon fighting mode, Double weapons used in one-handed fighting mode, and natural weapons do not qualify.
Two-handed weapons and double weapons used in two-handed attack mode do qualify. Failure to qualify = no Pushing Assault possible.
Now, if they said you must be using a Two-handed weapon you would have a point and then we would be discussing the vagaries of what qualifies as a two-handed weapon. (Not saying I would disagree.) But, since they do not specify two-handed weapons then it is not an issue.
- Gauss
BBT: I believe I said that. I said double weapon used in two-handed attack mode.
- Gauss