Yup.
8 Red Wizards:
Yes, but the damage output will be significantly reduced when compared to other TWF builds. The approximate ratio is that for every -1attack the damage increase should be at least +3. In this case you are getting -2 (over other TWF builds) and only improving your damage by +1.
I would suggest either a Double Weapon or Sawtooth Sabres instead.
- Gauss
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Unless you're asking because you think it's cool-lookin'... in which case, I say, "Right on!"
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Eben: Good point. RP reasons are good as well but an informed decision is better. :D
- Gauss
If you want to wield huge weapons while dual wielding just go all out on that focus then:
2 levels in Titan Mauler (barbarian), 11 levels in Two-Weapon Warrior (Fighter)
There, now you can dual wield great axes, swords, elven curve blades, mauls, falchions, etc. with one weapon being considered normal and the other light. This is basically the only use of Titan Mauler right now, unless you are a small humanoid and benefit thus better from the level 1 ability.
Ryu: Good point. But that means he wont get a reduction in the attack penalties until level 13. That is a long time to wait. Until that point he has a -6 to attack. At level 13 it becomes a -4attack. Not really worth it imo. At least not for a 2.5damage increase (over Sawtooth Sabres).
- Gauss
The good stuff always requires some patience,
though if 3.5 content is allowed, The class Tempest would help as would the feat Oversized two-weapon fighting.
I am sure there are other methods for that (just didn't look into as bastard swords for my own concept "were too small to consider")
^-^
anyway, from an efficiency perspective -4 or so would be the same modifier for the Titan Mauler as well, another reason to just use even bigger weapons then
I actually like how one can dual wield falchions this way, falchions should be one handed weapons to begin with, but for some reason D&D has them two-handed since a long time
8 Red Wizards:
Yes, but the damage output will be significantly reduced when compared to other TWF builds. The approximate ratio is that for every -1attack the damage increase should be at least +3. In this case you are getting -2 (over other TWF builds) and only improving your damage by +1.
I would suggest either a Double Weapon or Sawtooth Sabres instead.
- Gauss
Yeah but the badass factor is a lot harder to calculate!
Ryu: The Titan Mauler would suffer a -6 not a -4 if dual wielding falchions. -2 for wielding a 2handed weapon in 1 hand and -4 for TWF with one handed weapons. At level 13 (with your build suggestion) that would drop down to a -4.
In comparison a TWF Long Sword fighter would have a -4 until level 11 and a -2 at level 11 (asusming 2Weapon Warrior archetype).
A TWF using Sawtooth Sabre or a double weapon would have a -2 until level 11 and then a -1 (assuming 2Weapon Warrior archetype).
The damage increases would be:
2Weapon Warrior with Sawtooth Sabers or double bladed sword (1d8) = 4.5avg for -2attack (-1@11).
Titan Mauler+2Weapon Warrior w/Greatsword: (7avg) +2.5avg for a -6 (-4@13) attack.
2WW w/Bastard Sword: +1 avg for -4attack (-2@11)
Yes, big weapons look cool. But you wont hit much.
- Gauss
On a side note a sun blade (high level i know) counts as the best between a short sword and a bastard sword so one in your off hand would reduce the penalties to those of normal dual wielding.
Ryu: The Titan Mauler would suffer a -6 not a -4 if dual wielding falchions. -2 for wielding a 2handed weapon in 1 hand and -4 for TWF with one handed weapons. At level 13 (with your build suggestion) that would drop down to a -4.
In comparison a TWF Long Sword fighter would have a -4 until level 11 and a -2 at level 11 (asusming 2Weapon Warrior archetype).
A TWF using Sawtooth Sabre or a double weapon would have a -2 until level 11 and then a -1 (assuming 2Weapon Warrior archetype).
The damage increases would be:
2Weapon Warrior with Sawtooth Sabers or double bladed sword (1d8) = 4.5avg for -2attack (-1@11).
Titan Mauler+2Weapon Warrior w/Greatsword: (7avg) +2.5avg for a -6 (-4@13) attack.
2WW w/Bastard Sword: +1 avg for -4attack (-2@11)Yes, big weapons look cool. But you wont hit much.
- Gauss
hitting is less important if you can just get a few methods, there can be touch attack weapons or weapon finesse could work for the bigger weapons too (just use a large rapier as example) or some house/campaign rules, or multiclass to get True Strike, huge weapons require carry capacity so it is likely the wielder would also have a 18 in strength or similar which would minimize the negative effects, and then there are abilities and feats like Weapon Focus and mere enchantment as well :)
size modified weapons don't lose their "attributes" so if they are still considered finesse/light even bigger, curved elven blade are like that on the go, and the true benefit of the build concept is that it is full BAB so the chance to hit with all the other circumstantial bonuses isn't even low
anyway, the concept is there not for optimization but for "badassness", I also loved the depiction of Marduk with the two huge swords in Septerra Core, or those fiendish enemies in Icewind Dale (or was that IWD2?)
Although I admit the Titan Mauler/TWW concept build works the most ideal if the character is a gestalt one, and while half of the built uses this advancement the other is some kind of spellcaster (or just hex user)
Ryu: Really? I dont even know where to start.
Weapon Finesse: swaps out dex for strength. No advantage there on how often you are hitting. +6 str or +6dex is all the same. a -6attack penalty still bites you hard.
Touch attack weapons: Ok: First, what touch attack weapons? None of the weapons that have been discussed are touch attack. If you mean Brilliant Energy that is a +4 effective enhancement. Wont be able to get two of those until at least level 17 (25% weapons of WBL). Level 12 if you utterly ignore the % on WBL.
Anyhow, if you did manage to get a touch weapon somehow you lose the option for power attack (but PA in TWF is somewhat inferior anyhow).
True Strike: So what you are telling me is that in order to do a single guaranteed hit you are willing to sacrifice an entire round's worth of actions. Why not go with 2-handed weapons instead? At least then you can use vital strike appropriately. In any case it is a significant reduction in damage.
Look, I get what you are trying to say. You want to look badass. Great: you look scary, and cannot hit the broad side of a barn. There is nothing inside the rules you can do to fix that.
Which brings us to the last point: House rules? This is a rules forum. Not a houserules forum. Houserules in this forum should be mentioned only as an afterthought, not as a recommendation to make something work. In PF Gestalt is a house rule. Gestalt is broken anyhow.
- Gauss
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Does titan mauler or some other feat allow you to use a large weapons with weapon finesse? or did I misread something in the above posts?
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.Does titan mauler or some other feat allow you to use a large weapons with weapon finesse? or did I misread something in the above posts?
Kinda, it was mentioned that using an oversized light weapon could be used with weapon finesse which is a grey area.
of course you could use an elven curve blade which is two handed with weapon finesse in one hand with titan mauler
Ryu: Really? I dont even know where to start.
Weapon Finesse: swaps out dex for strength. No advantage there on how often you are hitting. +6 str or +6dex is all the same. a -6attack penalty still bites you hard.
Touch attack weapons: Ok: First, what touch attack weapons? None of the weapons that have been discussed are touch attack. If you mean Brilliant Energy that is a +4 effective enhancement. Wont be able to get two of those until at least level 17 (25% weapons of WBL). Level 12 if you utterly ignore the % on WBL.
Anyhow, if you did manage to get a touch weapon somehow you lose the option for power attack (but PA in TWF is somewhat inferior anyhow).True Strike: So what you are telling me is that in order to do a single guaranteed hit you are willing to sacrifice an entire round's worth of actions. Why not go with 2-handed weapons instead? At least then you can use vital strike appropriately. In any case it is a significant reduction in damage.
Look, I get what you are trying to say. You want to look badass. Great: you look scary, and cannot hit the broad side of a barn. There is nothing inside the rules you can do to fix that.
Which brings us to the last point: House rules? This is a rules forum. Not a houserules forum. Houserules in this forum should be mentioned only as an afterthought, not as a recommendation to make something work. In PF Gestalt is a house rule. Gestalt is broken anyhow.
- Gauss
I meant touch attack weapons as in campaign setting related or similar, an example could be a setting where one could have +2 enchantment fire swords that basically are the base weapon damage with +1 dice damage and all of it in fire type damage caused as melee touch attack, the weapon blade itself is a flame. Sorry if I am not the clearest, I rushed the reply a bit plus English isn't my native language.
I didn't plan Power Attack at all to be part of the concept honestly.
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.Does titan mauler or some other feat allow you to use a large weapons with weapon finesse? or did I misread something in the above posts?
there are already two-handed weapons that allow it (elven curve blade is a good example), and also larger than usual weapons retain their attributes (light, trip, disarming, etc), one doesn't have to be a Titan Mauler for that to be allowed
Ryu: Do you have a specific weapon you are talking about? Normal +2 Flaming weapons require a standard attack (ie: not a touch attack).
The point is, for TWF builds within the PF ruleset there is no method to get rid of the nasty attack penalty you are building into the character until you reach level 13. The increase of damage is just not worth the decrease in accuracy. Yes, it looks cool. No, it is not effective. By effective I don't even mean 'min-max' effective. I mean just plain ole you wont hit anything effective.
Alexandrina is correct: A Large Rapier loses its weapon finesse abilities in the hands of a Medium character. Even quoted the feat's text on the subject. Thus, for the purposes of Weapon Finesse you are limited to weapons of the proper size category.
- Gauss
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.Does titan mauler or some other feat allow you to use a large weapons with weapon finesse? or did I misread something in the above posts?Kinda, it was mentioned that using an oversized light weapon could be used with weapon finesse which is a grey area.
of course you could use an elven curve blade which is two handed with weapon finesse in one hand with titan mauler
Huh interesting. Well if you are going to do that don't choose the rapier! 1d6 weapons get the smallest percentage bump of any going up a size from Medium to Large. (Long story!)
Alexandrina is correct: A Large Rapier loses its weapon finesse abilities in the hands of a Medium character. Even quoted the feat's text on the subject. Thus, for the purposes of Weapon Finesse you are limited to weapons of the proper size category.
- Gauss
The feat does seem VERY clear. But you guys seem more familiar with it than I am.
The feat does seem VERY clear. But you guys seem more familiar with it than I am.Alexandrina is correct: A Large Rapier loses its weapon finesse abilities in the hands of a Medium character. Even quoted the feat's text on the subject. Thus, for the purposes of Weapon Finesse you are limited to weapons of the proper size category.
- Gauss
Well, even if we declare the larger sized weapons losing such attributes, base-sized weapons like the elven curve blade are still good to go. Anyway, as said earlier characters walking around with two big weapons usually require proper strength for it (especially if also wearing heavier armor), so maybe weapon finesse isn't useful at all for them.
"Ryu: Do you have a specific weapon you are talking about? /snip"
My example was of a setting-specific elemental weapon which I don't think is in the books (may be mistaken)
Normal Flaming weapon just adds flames to the still-metal blade, this one changes the blade to elemental energy.
What you are talking about sounds more like the druid spell "Flame Blade"
hm, yes it is similar
Circumstantial modifiers and options matter a lot, in a world there may be no elven curved blades, in an other there may be no touch enchanted weapons. etc
the concept by pure standard rules and base setting works well ("Well", as in it can still get hits in due to full BAB and not just be a "cool-factor" char but also stay useful), but can work better if there are things that make it more useful, I guess a lot of people would due to having a lot of more optimal concepts ignore such a char anyway, especially point-buy campaigns would be problematic due to high required DEX and STR.
If we don't use elven blades it is still epic to imagine a dwarf fighting with two great axes, or similar, although it has even greater negatives on attack. I imagine this flavor concept shines the best with enchanted armament and on higher levels where the loss on attack is not felt as much
I think basically the 13th level where the most "optimal" modifiers gather together (including feats like weapon focus taken during leveling) is where it becomes a proper TWF build option
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no
I never cared about Drizzt, I care about dual wielding bigass weapons ^-^
3.5 Edition had a handy feat called "Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting"
http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-adventurer--54/oversized-two-weapon-fight ing--2109/
Our group converted it for use in Pathfinder. It's not overpowered at all... in fact, the bonus to damage per attack is negligible. It's along the same lines as how most optimizers consider Exotic Weapon Proficiency to be a waste of a feat.
It's fantastic for flavor though. :)
As I said, Sawtooth Sabres are, more or less, thematically the same, and easier to duel wield.
As for "bigass weapons", there is a feat to two weapon fight, with an Earthbreaker and Klar.
Earthbreaker and Klar? Ooooooh, what feat is that?
EDIT: NVM, found it! Thunder and Fang. D20PFSRD says it's from an issue of Pathfinder in 2008... is that even Pathfinder RPG legal?
As I said, Sawtooth Sabres are, more or less, thematically the same, and easier to duel wield.
As for "bigass weapons", there is a feat to two weapon fight, with an Earthbreaker and Klar.
not bad, seems like something for a dwarven char though :)
3.5 Edition had a handy feat called "Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting"
http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-adventurer--54/oversized-two-weapon-fight ing--2109/
Our group converted it for use in Pathfinder. It's not overpowered at all... in fact, the bonus to damage per attack is negligible. It's along the same lines as how most optimizers consider Exotic Weapon Proficiency to be a waste of a feat.
It's fantastic for flavor though. :)
others have issues with 3rd party stuff, I do not, but I would rather avoid non-Pathfinder stuff 99% of the time :)
BBT: I think I suggested Sawtooth Sabre in the um...3rd post. WAY ninja'd. :D
- Gauss
Hehehe so do I. :)
- Gauss
Is your PC a Drow, driven out of Drow society?
Hey now, nothing wrong with a Drizzt clone.
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How is being driven away from Drow society criteria enough to be considered a "Drizzt clone?"
I'd imagine to be considered a "Drizzt clone" you'd first have to be a pretentious, chaotic-good ranger-ish fighter guy whose favored technique is dual-scimitar slish-slashing.
What Tempest are you refering to? The one in Masters of the Wild? (A 3.0 splatbook.) If so, ugh. No wonder you want to wield Bastard swords. I would too if I were going with that bit of brokenness.
A note about Tempest:
You will be unable to use Off-hand Parry with a Bastard Sword in each hand. The offhand weapon must be a 'size category smaller than your own'.
- Gauss
Doh, I completely forgot about that version of Tempest. Bad me. :D
Yeah, that version isnt quite as bad.
- Gauss