wraithstrike wrote:
Your logic is flawed because a witch casting a spell does not make it arcane. The spell itself does not have a designation. It's desination is decided by who cast it. There was a quote that said arcane caster cast divine spells, which is supported by the scroll rules.
and that concept completely ignors the arcane and divine spell lists in the gmg, the discription of arcane and divine spells in ultimate magic and then there is also the question of how a spell can be divine for an alchemist making a divine extract (remember that the long list of spells in question appear on both arcane and divine spell casters lists).
there is not rule stateing
"The spell itself does not have a designation."
its a nice house rule but as far as i know its not part of RAW
There are almost no rules that care about arcane or divine.
There is a trait
And a scroll must be of the correct type
Anything else?
My take, spell are spells. Wether you cast it or your god does its the same spell. Divine spells are asking their god to do it and arcane is figuring it out your self.
For divine cl and dc are based on the dieties Evaluation of your worthiness (wis and lvl) or for chr classes their ability to ask nicely/ persuasively.
PFS doesn't care about who made the scroll and I like my reasoning above. I wish PF had bit of fluff tying rules to the world like this.
Wraithstrike Minion #1 wrote: Mystic Theurge? ”CRB p387-388” wrote:
Mystic theurges place no boundaries on their magical abilities and find no irreconcilable paradox in devotion to the arcane as well as the divine.
~~~
Combined Spells (Su): A mystic theurge can prepare and cast spells from one of his spellcasting classes using the available slots from any of his other spellcasting classes.
whats the confusion? Mystic Theurges can use Arcane spell slots to power or cast divine spells and vise versa. Which kind of points out what I have been saying all along.
Back to the topic of spells having a type independent of spell caster,
Lets not forget the components M/DF and or F/DF
”CRB p213” wrote:
If the Components line includes F/DF or M/DF, the arcane version of the spell has a focus component or a material component (the abbreviation before the slash) and the divine version has a divine focus component (the abbreviation after the slash).
M/DF and F/DF signify arcane or divine versions of a spell itself.
I have referenced and quoted actual rules from the CRB, APG, GMG, UM and ARG.
What reference’s or rules have been sighted supporting the claim that?
wraithstrike wrote:
The spell itself does not have a designation.
Please provide the source material for this claim, book, page number, that sort of thing so others can fallow and find it for themselves.
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I see Hagan has posted but I am not bored enough to read what he says. If has come up with a new valid(rules based, not example based) argument could someone kindly shoot me a PM. If he has conceded the argument that would be nice to know also. Even though I would have to apologize for saying he was trolling in that case.
PS:If he is asking questions instead of explaining away our rules quotes again kindly remind him that asking a question is not an explanation. Since he is trying to prove 99% of the gaming population wrong the burden of proof is on him. Proof requires evidence(rules) or at least rules based examples such as scrolls and the mystic theurge which under his interpretation allow early entry.
wraithstrike wrote: I see Hagan has posted but I am not bored enough to read what he says. In this case, why do you even bother to answer?
Just asking...
It should be noted that some spells like Raise Dead (a 5th level cleric spell) is cast at 6th level by the arcane witch. Another good reference point would be the spell Reincarnate (a 4th level druid spell) is cast as a 5th level spell by the arcane witch.
This is consistent with Mystic theurges Combined Spells class ability of costing a spell slot one level higher from crossing the arcane/divine boundary.
”CRB p388” wrote:
Combined Spells (Su): A mystic theurge can prepare and cast spells from one of his spellcasting classes using the available slots from any of his other spellcasting classes. Spells prepared or cast in this way take up a slot one level higher than they originally occupied.
wraithstrike wrote: ML if spells can count as both arcane and divine for the purpose of spell types then what is stopping early entry into the mystic theurge prestige class?
Quote: Requirements
To qualify to become a mystic theurge, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 3 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 3 ranks.
Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells.
Quote:
Bull's Strength
School transmutation; Level cleric 2, druid 2, paladin 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Now as a wizard 2/cleric 1 or vice-versa I have access to a spell that is both divine and arcane according to your interpretation of the rule.
So I can be a wizard 2/cleric 1/MT 1. That however is not possible by the rules as the way they are, and any thread in any forum to include Enworld, Giants in the playground, and WotC's boards, and Paizo shows that is not accurate.
I would also like to see a rule that says a spell is specifically arcane or divine, no matter which class is casting it, or at least a rule that says a spell originally starts off as with a specific designation. I am sure you can not find such a rule however. I am beginning to think you are trolling. If you are not trolling then arguing with people who have been playing the game for years, and obviously know the rules a lot better than you do seems silly at best.
Since you seem to not have noticed (or purposefully ignored) the actual question on the mystic theurge. I'll repost it for my lord.
Wraithstrike Minion #1 wrote: wraithstrike wrote: ML if spells can count as both arcane and divine for the purpose of spell types then what is stopping early entry into the mystic theurge prestige class?
Quote: Requirements
To qualify to become a mystic theurge, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 3 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 3 ranks.
Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells.
Quote:
Bull's Strength
School transmutation; Level cleric 2, druid 2, paladin 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Now as a wizard 2/cleric 1 or vice-versa I have access to a spell that is both divine and arcane according to your interpretation of the rule.
So I can be a wizard 2/cleric 1/MT 1. That however is not possible by the rules as the way they are, and any thread in any forum to include Enworld, Giants in the playground, and WotC's boards, and Paizo shows that is not accurate.
I would also like to see a rule that says a spell is specifically arcane or divine, no matter which class is casting it, or at least a rule that says a spell originally starts off as with a specific designation. I am sure you can not find such a rule however. I am beginning to think you are trolling. If you are not trolling then arguing with people who have been playing the game for years, and obviously know the rules a lot better than you do seems silly at best.
Since you seem to not have noticed (or purposefully ignored) the actual question on the mystic theurge. I'll repost it for my lord. A 2nd level wizard can not cast 2nd level spells, so are you talking about using scrolls? Because activating a scroll is the same as activating a wand (for the most part) and does not count as casting the spell.
I think he meant 3rd level wizard cleric 1 or vice versa.
The point is if the spell is always one or the other or both then at wizard level 3 then i can cast bulls str which by your defination is both arcane and divine. There fore i qualify for MT.
Wraithstrike Minion #1 wrote: wraithstrike wrote: ML if spells can count as both arcane and divine for the purpose of spell types then what is stopping early entry into the mystic theurge prestige class?
Quote: Requirements
To qualify to become a mystic theurge, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 3 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 3 ranks.
Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells.
Quote:
Bull's Strength
School transmutation; Level cleric 2, druid 2, paladin 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Now as a wizard 2/cleric 1 or vice-versa I have access to a spell that is both divine and arcane according to your interpretation of the rule.
So I can be a wizard 2/cleric 1/MT 1. That however is not possible by the rules as the way they are, and any thread in any forum to include Enworld, Giants in the playground, and WotC's boards, and Paizo shows that is not accurate.
I would also like to see a rule that says a spell is specifically arcane or divine, no matter which class is casting it, or at least a rule that says a spell originally starts off as with a specific designation. I am sure you can not find such a rule however. I am beginning to think you are trolling. If you are not trolling then arguing with people who have been playing the game for years, and obviously know the rules a lot better than you do seems silly at best.
Since you seem to not have noticed (or purposefully ignored) the actual question on the mystic theurge. I'll repost it for my lord. This transgressor has been informed of the question and also provided a link more than once. His selective blindness is why The Legion of Many-Eyed Shadow can no longer take him seriously. Even if his eyesight is that bad it only goes to prove that he is most likely missing key words in the book due to his bad eyesight, and that is the source of his confusion. So it is no matter if the lack of an answer is due to an inability to answer the question or an unwillingness to answer the question, the result is the same. He is incapable of finding the truth.
Talonhawke wrote: I think he meant 3rd level wizard cleric 1 or vice versa.
The point is if the spell is always one or the other or both then at wizard level 3 then i can cast bulls str which by your defination is both arcane and divine. There fore i qualify for MT.
O? if thats the case then lets not forget that spells can have both arcane and divine versions and have answered that concern already on many occasions.
MLHagan wrote:
Back to the topic of spells having a type independent of spell caster,
Lets not forget the components M/DF and or F/DF
”CRB p213” wrote:
If the Components line includes F/DF or M/DF, the arcane version of the spell has a focus component or a material component (the abbreviation before the slash) and the divine version has a divine focus component (the abbreviation after the slash).
M/DF and F/DF signify arcane or divine versions of a spell itself.
I have referenced and quoted actual rules from the CRB, APG, GMG, UM and ARG.
What reference’s or rules have been sighted supporting the claim that?
wraithstrike wrote:
The spell itself does not have a designation.
Please provide the source material for this claim, book, page number, that sort of thing so others can fallow and find it for themselves.
just because a spell itself has 2 versions does not mean that casting the spell qualifies as both versions. there is a londry list of spells that appear on both the arcane and divine spell lists in the GMG such as detect magic, meaning that these spells as spells themselfs can be either arcane or divine, or in effect they contain both types within themselfs.
now thats out of the way lets get back to the claim that
MLHagan wrote:
Back to the topic of spells having a type independent of spell caster,
Lets not forget the components M/DF and or F/DF
”CRB p213” wrote:
I have referenced and quoted actual rules from the CRB, APG, GMG, UM and ARG.
What reference’s or rules have been sighted supporting the claim that?
wraithstrike wrote:
The spell itself does not have a designation.
Please provide the source material for this claim, book, page number, that sort of thing so others can fallow and find it for themselves.
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Wraithstrike your right its time to end this.
Anyone who happens by with the power to lock and make this thread disappear please do. It is filled not only with useless and misleading information but it contians little to no relevant information.
Talonhawke wrote: Wraithstrike your right its time to end this.
Anyone who happens by with the power to lock and make this thread disappear please do. It is filled not only with useless and misleading information but it contians little to no relevant information.
Looking for some "good" information? here is a list of spells from the GMG listed on the Arcane spell list and are also not listed on the Divine spell list a few pages later.
Acid Arrow - Acid Fog - Alter Self - Analyze Dweomer - Animate Rope - Arcane Eye - Arcane Lock - Arcane Mark - Arcane Sight - Arcane Sight, Greater - Beast Shape I - Beast Shape II - Beast Shape III - Beast Shape IV - Binding - Black Tentacles - Blink - Blur - Burning Hands - Chain Lightning - Charm Monster - Charm Monster, Mass - Charm Person - Chill Touch - Circle of Death - Clone - Cloudkill - Color Spray - Command Undead - Cone of Cold - Contact Other Plane - Contingency - Control Undead - Crushing Despair - Crushing Hand - Dancing Lights - Darkvision - Daze - Daze Monster - Deep Slumber - Delayed Blast Fireball - Detect Scrying - Detect Secret Doors - Dimension Door - Disguise Self - Disintegrate - Displacement - Disrupt Undead - Dominate Monster - Dominate Person - Dream - Elemental Body I - Elemental Body II - Elemental Body III - Elemental Body IV - Enervation - Enlarge Person - Enlarge Person, Mass - Erase - Expeditious Retreat - Explosive Runes - Eyebite - Fabricate - False Life - False Vision - Fear - Feeblemind - Fire Shield - Fireball - Flame Arrow - Flesh to Stone - Floating Disk - Fly - Forcecage - Forceful Hand - Form of the Dragon I - Form of the Dragon II - Form of the Dragon III - Freedom - Freezing Sphere - Geas, Lesser - Ghost Sound - Giant Form I - Giant Form II - Glitterdust - Globe of Invulnerability - Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser - Grasping Hand - Grease - Guards and Wards - Hallucinatory Terrain - Halt Undead - Haste - Heroism - Heroism, Greater - Hideous Laughter - Hold Portal - Horrid Wilting - Hypnotic Pattern - Hypnotism - Identify - Illusory Script - Illusory Wall - Imprisonment - Incendiary Cloud - Insanity - Instant Summons - Interposing Hand - Invisibility Sphere - Invisibility, Greater - Invisibility, Mass - Irresistible Dance - Keen Edge - Knock - Legend Lore - Levitate - Lightning Bolt - Limited Wish - Locate Creature - Mage Armor - Mage Hand - Mage's Disjunction - Mage's Faithful Hound - Mage's Lucubration - Mage's Magnificent Mansion - Mage's Private Sanctum - Mage's Sword - Magic Aura - Magic Circle against Good - Magic Jar - Magic Missile - Magic Mouth - Magic Weapon - Major Creation - Major Image - Maze - Message - Meteor Swarm - Mind Blank - Mind Fog - Minor Creation - Minor Image - Mirage Arcana - Mirror Image - Misdirection - Mislead - Mnemonic Enhancer - Moment of Prescience - Mount - Nightmare - Nondetection - Open/Close - Overland Flight - Passwall - Permanency - Permanent Image - Persistent Image - Phantasmal Killer - Phantom Steed - Phantom Trap - Phase Door - Planar Binding - Planar Binding, Greater - Planar Binding, Lesser - Plant Shape I - Plant Shape II - Plant Shape III - Polar Ray - Polymorph - Power Word Blind - Power Word Kill - Power Word Stun - Prestidigitation - Prismatic Sphere - Prismatic Spray - Prismatic Wall - Programmed Image - Project Image - Protection from Arrows - Protection from Spells - Prying Eyes - Prying Eyes, Greater - Pyrotechnics - Rage - Rainbow Pattern - Ray of Enfeeblement - Ray of Exhaustion - Ray of Frost - Reduce Person - Reduce Person, Mass - Resilient Sphere - Rope Trick - Scare - Scintillating Pattern - Scorching Ray - Screen - Secret Chest - Secret Page - Secure Shelter - See Invisibility - Seeming - Sepia Snake Sigil - Sequester - Shades - Shadow Conjuration - Shadow Conjuration, Greater - Shadow Evocation - Shadow Evocation, Greater - Shadow Walk - Shield - Shocking Grasp - Shout - Shout, Greater - Shrink Item - Silent Image - Simulacrum - Sleep - Slow - Solid Fog - Spectral Hand - Statue - Stinking Cloud - Stone to Flesh - Suggestion - Suggestion, Mass - Telekinesis - Telekinetic Sphere - Telepathic Bond - Teleport - Teleport Object - Teleport, Greater - Teleportation Circle - Temporal Stasis - Time Stop - Tiny Hut - Touch of Fatigue - Touch of Idiocy - Transformation - Trap the Soul - True Strike - Unseen Servant - Vampiric Touch - Veil - Ventriloquism - Vision - Wail of the Banshee - Wall of Force - Wall of Ice - Wall of Iron - Waves of Exhaustion - Waves of Fatigue - Web - Weird - Whispering Wind - Wish
And do you know what they all have in common aside from being listed as arcane spell? None of these have a DF component. Coincidence? It should be noted that some of these spells also appear on divine caster spell lists and yet are still noted as arcane spells in the GMG, and yea the above list is over 250 spells long.
Here is a list of spells that have a divine version within the spell itself and yet do not appear on a divine spell casters spell list.
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance - Clenched Fist - Confusion - Confusion, Lesser - Demand - Disintegrate - Feeblemind - Fox's Cunning - Fox's Cunning, Mass - Gaseous Form - Hold Person, Mass - Horrid Wilting - Pellet Blast - Polymorph Any Object - Prying Eyes - Prying Eyes, Greater - Scorching Ash Form - Seducer's Eyes - Spell Turning
If spells are determined as being arcane or divine only by what spell list they appear on then how could there be so many spells with a divine versions that never meet that requirement?
Here is another question while we are at it. Why would the alchemist class specify not needing a DF for “Divine spells” when an oracle only specifies spells in general? Why wouldn’t the alchemist class just say that the don’t need a divine focus and leave out the part about divine spells? Why go through the extra effort of specifically stating divine spells especially considering that alchemist don’t have a caster type, nor would there list if that indeed is the only thing that determines if a spell is arcane or divine?
”APG p43” wrote:
Extracts cannot be made from spells that have focus requirements (alchemist extracts that duplicate divine spells never have a divine focus requirement).
They could have said “alchemist extracts never have a divine focus requirement” and left it at that.
”APG p43” wrote:
Oracles do not need to provide a divine focus to cast spells that list divine focus (DF) as part of the components.
After all, they felt no need to specify spell type with an oracle, right? And Oracles can gain spells from arcane spell lists as bonus spells, so...
MLHagan wrote: a list of spells that have a divine version within the spell itself and yet do not appear on a divine spell casters spell list. What does that mean? Divine version within the spell itself? What are you talking about?
Cpt. Caboodle wrote: MLHagan wrote: a list of spells that have a divine version within the spell itself and yet do not appear on a divine spell casters spell list. What does that mean? Divine version within the spell itself? What are you talking about? I think he has confused himself. If the spell is not on a divine spell list then there can be no divine version. However don't let his nonsense confuse you. The spell still is not arcane or divine in an of itself.
Quote: just because a spell itself has 2 versions does not mean that casting the spell qualifies as both versions. there is a londry list of spells that appear on both the arcane and divine spell lists in the GMG such as detect magic, meaning that these spells as spells themselfs can be either arcane or divine, or in effect they contain both types within themselfs.
now thats out of the way lets get back to the claim that
Oh, it is not out of the way. That just leads to another questions. So you what version of the spell does it qualify as, and where is the rule that determines what it qualifies as?
Would detected magic as an example count as arcane or divine using the my mystic theurge example. What about bull's strength? Do they count as both types in and of themselves? I would really love to gain early entrance into the mystic theurge PrC. The Legion of Many-Eyed Shadow would like to know, and so would 99% of the gaming population who happen to be doing it wrong.
Now if you say that the caster determines the spell type then you must agree with everyone else's interpretation of the rules. Choose carefully. :)
Cpt. Caboodle wrote: MLHagan wrote: a list of spells that have a divine version within the spell itself and yet do not appear on a divine spell casters spell list. What does that mean? Divine version within the spell itself? What are you talking about? this is what i am talking about
CRB p213 wrote:
If the Components line includes F/DF or M/DF, the arcane version of the spell has a focus component or a material component (the abbreviation before the slash)and the divine version has a divine focus component (the abbreviation after the slash).
On to the next one.
wraithstrike wrote:
Oh, it is not out of the way. That just leads to another questions. So you what version of the spell does it qualify as, and where is the rule that determines what it qualifies as?
a cleric casting fireball from their domain is using divine power to cast that spell. fireball is an arcane spell however because a cleric is casting it they are doing so as a divine variant. this is simular to a mystic theurge useing arcane spell slots to prepair spells from there divine spell casting class.
as for refrenceing the rules on such, i am still waiting for you to do what you have asked of others.
MLHagan wrote:
I have referenced and quoted actual rules from the CRB, APG, GMG, UM and ARG.
What reference’s or rules have been sighted supporting the claim that?
wraithstrike wrote:
The spell itself does not have a designation.
Please provide the source material for this claim, book, page number, that sort of thing so others can fallow and find it for themselves.
MLHagan wrote:
a cleric casting fireball from their domain is using divine power to cast that spell. fireball is an arcane spell however because a cleric is casting it they are doing so as a divine variant. this is simular to a mystic theurge useing arcane spell slots to prepair spells from there divine spell casting class.
So you are saying the casting class determines what the spell counts as? Remember a fireball which is an arcane spell can not be cast by a divine caster. The rules state this. So either it is arcane or it is divine. That fits into the logic that the caster, not the spell determines the spell type. The quote saying which classes cast which spells, the scroll rules, and the MT all support that ruling. If you are going to disagree then you have to make it work within the current ruleset for all of those situation.
Example:Bull's strength is divine when cast by a druid, but arcane when cast by a wizard.
As for the spell not having a designation the fact the scroll rules and the mystic theurge support that along with every gamer except you. If you are going against what everyone is saying, to include the developers, the proof of burden is on you. You still have not provided any rule that says X determines spell designation.
So just to be clear a spell with a DF is divine and a spell without a DF is arcane by your interpretation of the rules? If so is it always divine or only divine when cast by a divine caster? If so how does this fit with the examples I keep referencing.
PS:That divine focus section you keep quoting never says that is the way to determine the base spell type. It only says that the divine version uses DF
Quote: Divine Focus (DF): A divine focus component is an item of spiritual significance. The divine focus for a cleric or a paladin is a holy symbol appropriate to the character's faith. The divine focus for a druid or a ranger is a sprig of holly, or some other sacred plant.
If the Components line includes F/DF or M/DF, the arcane version of the spell has a focus component or a material component (the abbreviation before the slash) and the divine version has a divine focus component (the abbreviation after the slash).
That is not the same as "A spell with a DF is automatically divine."
Note that I have been saying a divine version of spell is divine while the arcane version is arcane.
stringburka wrote: Don't feed it. ..but its so fun. It would be even more fun if he were serious. Maybe he is playing devil's advocate for his group.
PS:I really hope he is not serious.
wraithstrike wrote: The spell itself does not have a designation.
So according to you it is only the caster that determines if a spell is arcane or divine? the who/how the spell is being cast, correct? so any spell a wizard cast is arcane right? so using mystic past life a wizard can select any spell because whatever spell they choose will be cast as an arcane spell including divine power. Spells themselfs have no type right?
don't worry about the source, witch can cast divine power as arcane so wizard can get it from there. if that isn't to your likeing then they can get it from the Mystic Theurge spell casting class because they can do it to.
So six pages in, I'm guessing that the question is either answered or can't be answered. This thread is locked.
Generally, if you create a thread to ask a question, you should be receptive to answers.
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