What makes a divine spell divine?


Rules Questions

101 to 150 of 275 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | next > last >>

Talonhawke wrote:
Actually bard have been covering Arcance CLW since 3.0.

Absolutely a good example.

It doesn't matter about who cast the spell before...

It matters who is casting it now.

Bard casts arcane... Cure light wounds cast by bard is ARCANE

Cleric casts divine...Cure light wounds cast by cleric is DIVINE

Oracle casts divine... ANY and EVERY spell cast by Oracle is DIVINE.

Divine casters... Inquisitor, paladin, ranger, cleric, druid
IF they cast.. it is divine.. fireball, cure light wounds.. magic missle.. detect magic...whatever.

Arcane Casters... Bard, wizard, sorcerer, magus, witch, summoner, alchemist IF they cast it... it is ARCANE.. fireball, cure light wounds, magic missle...detect magic...whatever.

Spell itself... does not matter.

What class is casting determines the spell being ARCANE or DIVINE.

Gauss wrote:


Say it with me:
Once: By themselves spells are neither arcane nor divine!
Twice: By themselves spells are neither arcane nor divine!!
Thrice: By themselves spells are neither arcane nor divine!!!

EDIT: Maybe you played HERO or Champions long ago. Think of spells like powers. When an arcane caster casts, his "special effect" is making any spell he casts ..ARCANE. When an oracle casts, his "special effect" is making any spell he casts...DIVINE.

Greg


Greg, I am not the one that needs convincing. I am stating that taken out of context spells are neither arcane nor divine. Out of context not one single spell anywhere in the game is arcane or divine. That context is 'who is casting the spell and what is thier class?'

- Gauss


Gauss wrote:

Greg, I am not the one that needs convincing. I am stating that taken out of context spells are neither arcane nor divine. Out of context not one single spell anywhere in the game is arcane or divine. That context is 'who is casting the spell and what is thier class?'

- Gauss

Tossed in your quote because I felt he hadn't said it enough yet. It was not meant to point anything out to you.

Honestly, I know I am late to the party...but gosh, it is so frustrating to read this. You have the patience of the Dalai Lama.

I am uncertain how it can be rephrased or even graphed out to make it more obvious.

Long while ago, I had the same problem with summoned critters and teleportation magic. I could not see the OBVIOUS correct path. Abraham Spalding finally was able to beat it into my head.

Greg


Greg Wasson wrote:


Spell itself... does not matter.

What class is casting determines the spell being ARCANE or DIVINE.

And thus the initial confusion when i first read the requirments for mystic past life and its lack of refrence towards the source of additional spells.

read it through and don't add any of your own therfores and let me know what you think.

Quote:


Mystic Past Life (Su):
You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. You add a number of spells equal to 1 + your spellcasting class’s key ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, and so on). The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you’re adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell. These spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character. The number of spells granted by this ability is set at 1st level. Changes to your ability score do not change the number of spells gained. This racial trait replaces shards of the past.

i still don't agree with the choice to disribe the intent with a single spell when a simular example could have just of easily been made refering to class or spell list and prevented such confusion, but there you have it.

as for

Greg Wasson wrote:


Oracle casts divine... ANY and EVERY spell cast by Oracle is DIVINE.

what about the anchent lorekeeper picking up arcane mark?

then there is the question of Arcane Sight on the inquisitor spell list.

sure they are fuled by divine magic but does there name change as well?

then there is the question of theurgy, the feat that allows you cross the streams of arcnae and divine power, and thats not getting into the much that mystic thuergs create... but another topic i suppose.


Well, considering that arcane sight is on the inquisitor spell list, and it says that inquisitors cast divine spells, that nothing is changed, it is arcane sight, and as an inquisitor is casting it, it is divine. No name change.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Greg Wasson wrote:
Gauss wrote:

Greg, I am not the one that needs convincing. I am stating that taken out of context spells are neither arcane nor divine. Out of context not one single spell anywhere in the game is arcane or divine. That context is 'who is casting the spell and what is thier class?'

- Gauss

Tossed in your quote because I felt he hadn't said it enough yet. It was not meant to point anything out to you.

Honestly, I know I am late to the party...but gosh, it is so frustrating to read this. You have the patience of the Dalai Lama.

I am uncertain how it can be rephrased or even graphed out to make it more obvious.

Long while ago, I had the same problem with summoned critters and teleportation magic. I could not see the OBVIOUS correct path. Abraham Spalding finally was able to beat it into my head.

Greg

Greg, you are right, I should've left this conversation some time ago. In fact, at one point I even said I was. But..I dunno. I do like to help and it does improve my own understanding of the game. I got the same benefits when I used to tutor electronics students.

- Gauss


Inquisitor casting arcane sight.. casts it divine.

Name is just a label. If you want call it "Eyes of the Inquisition" or "Pharasma's vision of truth" or "That spell that lets me see magic auras n'stuff" Inquisitor casting it makes it divine.

PRD wrote:

Theurgy

You can blend the power of arcane and divine magic.

Prerequisites: Wis 13, Int or Cha 13, able to cast 1st-level arcane spells, able to cast 1st-level divine spells.

Benefit: You can augment the power of your divine spells with arcane energy and augment your arcane spells with divine energy.

When casting a divine spell, you may sacrifice an arcane spell slot or arcane prepared spell of that spell's level or higher as a swift action. The caster level for that divine spell increases by +1.

When casting an arcane spell, you may sacrifice a divine spell slot or prepared divine spell of the same or higher level as a swift action. Half the damage dealt by the arcane spell becomes holy (if you channel positive energy) or unholy (if you channel negative energy).

You are still casting DIVINE or ARCANE.. it is just being fueled by the opposite.

EX: Wizard7/Cleric7 casts a spell from his cleric list...(cleric' cast divine) He uses an wizard slot to fuel the increase of caster level. The spell is divine.

He casts a spell from his wizard list...(wizard's cast arcane) He uses a cleric slot to fuel the holy/unholy energy. The spell is arcane.

Greg

Edited to clarify what was being fueled.


alright, lets back up for a moment just so we are all on the same page, and oracle cast divine spells right?

each and every spell that an oracle cast is concidered divine reguardless of name or source, so with elven arcana i could choose to cast arcane mark as a divine spell right?


Yes, the oracle would cast arcane mark as a divine spell.


MLHagan wrote:

alright, lets back up for a moment just so we are all on the same page, and oracle cast divine spells right?

each and every spell that an oracle cast is concidered divine reguardless of name or source, so with elven arcana i could choose to cast arcane mark as a divine spell right?

By George!!!

Greg


Greg Wasson wrote:
MLHagan wrote:

alright, lets back up for a moment just so we are all on the same page, and oracle cast divine spells right?

each and every spell that an oracle cast is concidered divine reguardless of name or source, so with elven arcana i could choose to cast arcane mark as a divine spell right?

By George!!!

Greg

so an oracle selecting fireball from a wizards spell list becomes a divine fireball, when does it become a divine spell? is it as soon as i add it to my list or only when i cast it?


For that particular oracle, their spell list is always divine. So, as soon as a spell is made available for that list, it is divine.

Fireball spell in and off itself is neither divine nor arcane. On the wizard's list, it is arcane. On a Cleric's list it is divine.

The class determines the type. It doesn't matter how you learned it.

Greg

EDIT: 45 years old and I still mispell "their" more oft than not. *sigh* And to think, both my Step-parents were English teachers.


Greg Wasson wrote:

For that particular oracle, their spell list is always divine. So, as soon as a spell is made available for that list, it is divine.

Fireball spell in and off itself is neither divine nor arcane. On the wizard's list, it is arcane. On a Cleric's list it is divine.

The class determines the type. It doesn't matter how you learned it.

Greg

Cool, so lets take that one step further.

Advanced Race Guide page 198 wrote:


Mystic Past Life (Su):
You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class.

Cool, as an oracle I can choose any other spell casting class, I choose wizard. There is no limitation on what other spell casting class I can choose, it only has to be different than the one I am currently in.

Advanced Race Guide page 198 wrote:


You add a number of spells equal to 1 + your spellcasting class’s key ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, and so on).

My cha at 1st level is 16 for a +3 bonus, that gives me a total of 4 spells to select from the wizard class and add them to my spell list.

Advanced Race Guide page 198 wrote:


The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you’re adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell.

Not a problem, as soon as I select my fireball its on my oracle list and is now a divine spell.

The requirement of divine or arcane spell is now self fulling because whatever spell I select will atuomaticly become the same as the class that I am selecting it for.

After all the requirement of spell type becomes irrelevant if the caster is the only determining factor in making a spell arcane or divine.

right?

Greg Wasson wrote:


EDIT: 45 years old and I still mispell "their" more oft than not. *sigh* And to think, both my Step-parents were English teachers.

LOL, dyslexic myself, so i wouldn't have noticed anyways.


With Mystic past life, it is saying you can pick spells from some other spell list to add to yours, but they must be the same type, so as an oracle you couldn't pick any spell from a sorcerer list, because you go and pick a spell from there, but it is an illegal choice.

What I am saying is I read
"You add a number of spells equal to 1 + your spellcasting class’s key ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, and so on). The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you’re adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell. "
as meaning that the spell has to meet the requirement to be added to your list, not that it is put on your list and then that it is checked.


MLHagan wrote:


Advanced Race Guide page 198 wrote:


Mystic Past Life (Su):
You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class.

Cool, as an oracle I can choose any other spell casting class, I choose wizard. There is no limitation on what other spell casting class I can choose, it only has to be different than the one I am currently in.

Advanced Race Guide page 198 wrote:


You add a number of spells equal to 1 + your spellcasting class’s key ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, and so on).

My cha at 1st level is 16 for a +3 bonus, that gives me a total of 4 spells to select from the wizard class and add them to my spell list.

Advanced Race Guide page 198 wrote:


The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you’re adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell.

Not a problem, as soon as I select my fireball its on my oracle list and is now a divine spell.

The requirement of divine or arcane spell is now self fulling because whatever spell I select will atuomaticly become the same as the class that I am selecting it for.

After all the requirement of spell type becomes irrelevant if the caster is the only determining factor in making a spell arcane or divine.

right?

Quick answer is no, that is not right.

Somehow, we seemed to have left the apple cart and jumped on the orange cart without any inbetween stuff.

First off, we were discussing an elf, using an elf only class special second level ability. Now, we jump over to a samsaran Alternate racial ability. Samsarans cannot be Ancient Lorekeepers.

So, this being a RULES forum, the answer is no. Cannot happen.

If you are discussing the Samsaran Alternate ability by itself, Velas' answer is correct. NO.. an oracle must select a divine spell from divine lists. The elf that happened to pick it for his particular list is using a specific rule for him that bypasses a more general rule. The samsaran does not have that luxury, and must select from standard divine lists.

Greg


Vellas wrote:

With Mystic past life, it is saying you can pick spells from some other spell list to add to yours, but they must be the same type, so as an oracle you couldn't pick any spell from a sorcerer list, because you go and pick a spell from there, but it is an illegal choice.

What I am saying is I read
"You add a number of spells equal to 1 + your spellcasting class’s key ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, and so on). The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you’re adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell. "
as meaning that the spell has to meet the requirement to be added to your list, not that it is put on your list and then that it is checked.

Arcane sight was only on arcane spell lists prior to the introduction of the inquisitor class, a divine spell casting class.

At some point in the future Paizo could release a new arcane spell casting class with divine power on its spell list. Would the rule in mystic past life refering to divine power remain valid? After all it refers to a particular spell and not a spell casting class, doesn’t it? Even if divine power was on an arcane spell list according to this it would remain an invalid choice as currently writen, wouldn't it?

it appears as if the developer that wrote this section specificly excluded refrence to the source spell casting class on purpose. they could have just as easly chosen to write

”For example, you could not add divine power to your wizard class spell list because it does not appear on the base spell list of any arcane spellcasting class.”

rather than

”For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell.”

as writen it opens up alot of questions about what we thought we knew in the past, prior to that i had no question about what spells were divine or arcane, just look at what class is casting it and there you go. but this opens up a whole new realm of possablities, will there be other kinds of magic like infernal or demonic magic to counter divine magic and casters at some point in the future? I don't know, but i do know that i don't know so there's that.

I would love to hear from the person that actualy wrote this and find out what there intent was, untill then i have concedded to fallow the masses and selecet from divine or arcane classes accordinly. but the question remains, what makes a divine spell divine? and the possability that it is something more than just what list its on may come to light at some point.

Greg Wasson wrote:


If you are discussing the Samsaran Alternate ability by itself, Velas' answer is correct. NO.. an oracle must select a divine spell from divine lists.

so it sounds like you are saying that its not the caster in question the determiens if a spell is arcane or not. if spells become arcane or divine as soon as a caster selects them or adds them to there list then and spell a samsaran oracle choose's by default is divine.

basicly it sounds like you are saying that its not a problem for an elven oracle to choose a wider selection of spells (9) from the wizard list but it is for a samsarian oracle to choose the max of 5 from the same list.

this is the point when i am not fallowing the logic.


Spells are neither arcane nor divine. A spell is cast as an arcane or divine spell depending on which class is doing the casting. This matters because divine spells generally come from a deity, and arcane spells are powered by the wielder and have to deal with ASF(Arcane spell failure). That is why a bard or witch casting cure light wounds will have trouble casting it if he is wearing heavy armor, but a cleric will not.

PRD, Magic chapter wrote:


Arcane Spells

Wizards, sorcerers, and bards cast arcane spells.
-----------------------------------------------------

Divine Spells

Clerics, druids, experienced paladins, and experienced rangers can cast divine spells. Unlike arcane spells, divine spells draw power from a divine source. Clerics gain spell power from deities or from divine forces. The divine force of nature powers druid and ranger spells, and the divine forces of law and good power paladin spells. Divine spells tend to focus on healing and protection and are less flashy, destructive, and disruptive than arcane spells.


MLHagan wrote:

?

it appears as if the developer that wrote this section specificly excluded refrence to the source spell casting class on purpose. they could have just as easly chosen to write

”For example, you could not add divine power to your wizard class spell list because it does not appear on the base spell list of any arcane spellcasting class.”

rather than

”For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell.”

I think you are reading way too much in a lazy edit. Feats, special abilities, class features, all these things and more are exceptions to the rules. Comparing two special features and trying to link them to change the nature of divine and arcane.. maybe would be better off in Suggestions or General discussion.

Rule wise, it is pretty clear.

Greg

EDIT "lazy edit" is rude. These folk are writing lots of stuff with hundreds of folk going over sections questioning minutia, one cannot forsee every iterpretation of any particular bit written, let alone when combining sections other authors may have dabbled with.


MLHagan:

There is a concept in 3.5/Pathfinder game design. That difference is General versus Specific. General rules are how most things work. Specific rules are how specific things work and usually add some exception to the general. But it MUST be stated they add an exception.

General:
Arcane spells are cast by the following classes: Alchemist, Bard, Magus, Sorcerer, Summoner, Witch, or Wizard.

Divine spells are cast by the following classes: Antipaladin, Cleric, Druid, Inquisitor, Oracle, Paladin, or Ranger.

Specific (Mystic Past Life):
A character with Mystic Past Life selects a spellcasting class to take some spells from and add them to his own. Both classes must be either Arcane classes or Divine classes.

Note: Since both classes must be the same there is no problem here.

Other specific (Ancient Lorekeeper):
Ancient Lorekeeper (Elven Arcana): Select spells from the sorcerer/wizard list and add them to your spells known.

Note: Since you are taking what are normally 'arcane' spells and casting them using a Divine casting class (Oracle) you seem think there is a problem. That problem being that you are a divine caster casting an arcane spell. However, there is no wording to that effect. Thus, there is no exception. See General rule. General rule states that any spells an Oracle casts are divine. Thus the sorcerer/wizard spells you added are now divine (for you).

- Gauss


Gauss wrote:

MLHagan:

There is a concept in 3.5/Pathfinder game design. That difference is General versus Specific. General rules are how most things work. Specific rules are how specific things work and usually add some exception to the general. But it MUST be stated they add an exception.

General:
Arcane spells are cast by the following classes: Alchemist, Bard, Magus, Sorcerer, Summoner, Witch, or Wizard.

Divine spells are cast by the following classes: Antipaladin, Cleric, Druid, Inquisitor, Oracle, Paladin, or Ranger.

Specific (Mystic Past Life):
A character with Mystic Past Life selects a spellcasting class to take some spells from and add them to his own. Both classes must be either Arcane classes or Divine classes.

Note: Since both classes must be the same there is no problem here.

Other specific (Ancient Lorekeeper):
Ancient Lorekeeper (Elven Arcana): Select spells from the sorcerer/wizard list and add them to your spells known.

Note: Since you are taking what are normally 'arcane' spells and casting them using a Divine casting class (Oracle) you seem think there is a problem. That problem being that you are a divine caster casting an arcane spell. However, there is no wording to that effect. Thus, there is no exception. See General rule. General rule states that any spells an Oracle casts are divine. Thus the sorcerer/wizard spells you added are now divine (for you).

- Gauss

* points above excitedly *

This! This! Much better written.. my mind is failing as it is two hours past bedtime now. I will check back in after sleep and work and dinner..MUCH LATER!

Greg


Greg Wasson wrote:


I think you are reading way too much in a lazy edit. Feats, special abilities, class features, all these things and more are exceptions to the rules. Comparing two special features and trying to link them to change the nature of divine and arcane.. maybe would be better off in Suggestions or General discussion.

Rule wise, it is pretty clear.

Greg

not trying to change arcane or divine magic, trying to understand what the intent was. and not trying to link 2 special features, compairing to simular things to eachother.

to me this is simular to wizards compaired to sorcerers, wizards have fewer spells but a wider selection (simular to mystic past life, lower spell count but able to choose from diffrent classes) sorcerers have more spells but a smaller selection (simular to eleven arcana, higher spell count but limited to a smaller list to choose from).

as for the question of what makes a divine spell divine, the more i look into it the more i realise that there are spells that feal more divine than others, spells like divine arrow, bestow grace, searing light, spells that in there discription rely on a divine source or deity to fule the power of the spell. spells that we have over looked in genral veiwing only the face mechanics and not really delving in to the flavor or roll playing side of things.

to me mystic past life could be a really cool step towards pathfinder becoming more roll playing oriented rather than a table top version of a video game that 4th ed has become. or it could be as you put it "a lazy edit". rather than being cought up in preconcived notions and exsisting dogma, i prefer to keep my mind open to the posabilites.

Gauss wrote:

MLHagan:

There is a concept in 3.5/Pathfinder game design. That difference is General versus Specific. General rules are how most things work. Specific rules are how specific things work and usually add some exception to the general. But it MUST be stated they add an exception.

General:
Arcane spells are cast by the following classes: Alchemist,

Yea, people keep calling an alchemist an arcane spell caster, i am not really fallowing that either, alchemist don't cast spells, they make extracts that function like spells. sure these potions or extracts are equivilant to spells but are they spells? can they be examined with detect magic? I don't know, worth looking further into, but there is something there thats not sitting quite right at the moment.

Gauss wrote:


Specific (Mystic Past Life):
A character with Mystic Past Life selects a spellcasting class to take some spells from and add them to his own. Both classes must be either Arcane classes or Divine classes.

Note: Since both classes must be the same there is no problem here.

Yea, and again thats the leap of faith that i am not fallowing, if spells themselfs can be arcane or divine then your above restrictions make no sceanse in reguards to what is writen for mystic past life. after all it does not refer to the source class or spell list, that connection as some have put it is implied. but what if its not supposed to be implied?

so far i haven't heard or seen any rules saying that a given spell can not be arcane or divine by itself. there is one refrence that suggest that they can be.

I understand how truely divine or arcane spells could get lost in the shuffel though, i mean really how would we know that Deafening Song Bolt was intended to be a turely arcane spell all on its own and in its own right if it keeps getting mixed in with other bard spells that get converted upon casting.

basicly its like if i dump all of my golf balls into a vat of red paint without looking at them and before i use them how do i know if some of them where red before i used them? we need to peal back some paint and take a closer look don't we?


How do you know that an alchemist is an arcane caster? Its not written in the advanced players guide as such. Alchemist don’t actually cast spells. If spells are determined by who’s casting them then why would an alchemist’s spell list be considered arcane?

Is it based on where alchemist get there spell selection from? because there are a lot of spells on their list that are not on any arcane spell casters list. Spells like aid, healing warmth, keen senses, restoration, spell resistance, wind walk and the like. The point is that there are spells that don’t have an arcane heritage and yet they are still considered arcane.

Is it the feel of the class, its clearly not divine so by default does that make it arcane?

Anyways, alchemist are not actually spell casters, they are not described as being arcane or divine and yet they are accepted as being arcane.

If alchemist can be accepted as arcane without being a spell caster then why wouldn’t a spell like divine power be accepted as divine without relationship to a spell caster either?


Actually from what i understand and alchemist is a non-arcane non-divine "caster" I say this because it came up early this year about alchemist taking Imp familier and one of the Devs saying that they don't meet the prereq since they need an Arcane Caster level.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Alchemists are a weird case. I was actually repeating James Jacobs list of spellcasting types when I wrote that. Normally I would not have inserted Alchemists into the mix.

Now, lets use your golf ball analogy:

The Great Golf Ball Story:

Arcane = Red golf balls
Divine = Blue golf balls
Markings = spell names

The Golf Balls of the world start out as white and unpainted. They cried out to the Great Developers, we cannot be used like this! We need colors to be properly used! The Great Developers heard the golf balls plight and took them unto themselves. They painted the balls red or blue. They said to the golf balls, you will be red or blue forever unless we say that you will change colors. The Great Developers then made marks upon the red and blue balls to differentiate the different powers of the balls.

They said: Let the Wizards and Sorcerers use red golf balls and gave them a group of red balls.

And then they said: Let the Bards also use red golf balls and also gave unto the Bards a group of red balls.

Someday later the bards and the wizards got together and realized that many of their golf balls had the same marks but some did not. They mused upon this for awhile and realized that although they could share Red balls with the same markings as their own they could not share Red balls that had different markings.

The Clerics, Druids, Rangers, and Paladins of the world cried out for balls of their own and the developers gave them blue balls each with their own markings of power.

One day, the clerics got together with the bards and they compared balls. They noticed that a few balls had the same markings even though they were different color. They tried to share their balls and realized they could not because the colors made them too different.

Then along came a Samarsan Wizard who said: I was once a Bard, because of this the Developers have decreed that I can understand a few Bardly marks on red balls. And so the Samarsan took a few bardly balls for his own.

Along came another Samarsan, a cleric, who said: I was once a Wizard and I want Wizard balls! He tried but he could not understand the Balls because the developers decreed that Red cannot use Blue and Blue cannot use Red.

So he was sad and instead chose Paladin balls because he was once also a Paladin and though the Paladin balls had some different markings they were blue and the Developers decreed he could read a few of them.

Later came an Oracle Elf. The Oracle Elf rejoiced for though he had blue balls the Great Developers had decreed that he could take a few Wizardly red balls for himself and repaint them. They gave him special blue paint and he took a few Wizardly red balls and repainted them with his special blue paint.

Thus concludes the Golf Ball Story - The End.

Look, I have told you the rules. Others have told you the rules. I have even written you a story in order to try to help you understand. For tonight at least, I am done. Perhaps I will try again tommorow. Then again, I have other things I will need to be doing so perhaps not.

- Gauss


Talonhawke wrote:
Actually from what i understand and alchemist is a non-arcane non-divine "caster" I say this because it came up early this year about alchemist taking Imp familier and one of the Devs saying that they don't meet the prereq since they need an Arcane Caster level.

Thank you, thats a good piece of information and understandalbe because its noted in the APG that alchemist don't actualy cast spells. odd that so many automaticly accept or expect alchemist to be arcane though. So much so that even James Jacobs refered to the alchemist class as being arcane spellcasters in the past 24 hours. I don't fault him for it, i totaly understand the feal of the class as being such. Its just like the implied restriction that so many are placing on mystic past life. It feals like thats how its supposed to work so why look any further.

again, thank you for that clearification.


Gauss wrote:
The Great Golf Ball Story

*laughs* Now this was a great bedtime story.

Thumbs up!


Midnight Angel: would you believe I wrote that TWICE? Im not sure which version is better, probably the second one though. The internet ate the first.

- Gauss


Gauss wrote:


Look, I have told you the rules. Others have told you the rules. I have even written you a story in order to try to help you understand. For tonight at least, I am done. Perhaps I will try again tommorow. Then again, I have other things I will need to be doing so perhaps not.

- Gauss

nice story, glad to see that you accept that some golfballs or spells can be colored arcane or divine before they are handed to the diffrent schools. spells like guidance which refer to its divine nature in the spell discription "This spell imbues the subject with a touch of divine guidance".

just because spell casters can change the type of a spell to match the casting capability of thier class does not exclude a spell from having its own prior to that point. sure, all spells a witch casts are cast as arcane spells, but what to say that they didn't have their own type prior to a given spellcasting class getting ahold of them? show me a rule that specifies that they don't and we can go from there.


*sighs* you so missed the point

They cannot be colored differently before they are handed to different classes. They are given properly to each class. Class is divine? casts divine spells. Class is Arcane? casts arcane spells. What the spell is to begin with is utterly freaking irrelevant. Does it have a divine fluff description? Totally irrelevant. Does it have the word Divine or Arcane in the name? Totally irrelevant. The ONLY thing that is relevant is what class casts the spell. That is all that controls Divine vs Arcane. And before you go there: When I say 'casts' I mean has on spell list and thus that class casts that spell.

Mystic Past Life is NOT able to rip off another classes spells across the Divine/Arcane divide. They must be the same: Divine-Divine or Arcane-Arcane. (IE: could not repaint the golf balls because the Developers decreed it.)

Ancient Lorekeeper (Elven Arcana) is the ONLY class I am aware of that allows you to rip off a Wizard's spells across the Divine/Arcane divide. But because of the rules (and lack of exception stating otherwise) the 'stolen' arcane spells become divine spells for the Ancient Lorekeeper. (IE: repainted the golf balls because the Developers decreed it.)

Now, if you still don't get it I am sorry.

- Gauss


My previous interpretation of the class lists and spellcasting types was that spells were tagged as arcane, divine, both, (neither for extracts?). That spellcasters picked a type and then received a combination of spells of that type. However, lots of people have been saying that spells are neither inherently arcane nor divine which leads me to believe that spells are inherently neither. A class is given a type of casting and spells are added to their class list, thus becoming the appropriate type of spell.

MLHagan wrote:

nice story, glad to see that you accept that some golfballs or spells can be colored arcane or divine before they are handed to the diffrent schools. spells like guidance which refer to its divine nature in the spell discription "This spell imbues the subject with a touch of divine guidance".

I noticed that too.

Edit: @Gauss: *cough* *cough*. Maybe also do it with EH and Arcane bloodline.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Fluff =/= Rules.


Gauss wrote:

*sighs* you so missed the point

They cannot be colored differently before they are handed to different classes. They are given properly to each class. Class is divine? uses divine spells. Class is Arcane? uses arcane spells.

Mystic Past Life is NOT able to rips off another classes spells across the Divine/Arcane divide. They must be the same: Divine-Divine or Arcane-Arcane. (IE: could not repaint the golf balls because the Developers decreed it.)

Ancient Lorekeeper (Elven Arcana) is the ONLY class I am aware of that allows you to rip off a Wizard's spells across the Divine/Arcane divide. But because of the rules (and lack of exception stating otherwise) the 'stolen' arcane spells become divine spells for the Ancient Lorekeeper. (IE: repainted the golf balls because the Developers decreed it.)

Now, if you still don't get it I am sorry.

- Gauss

no i get that you where trying to say that all golf balls start out white, or all spells start out without an inclination towards divine or arcane as it where. but it doesn't say that anywhere in the rules and is forcable over looks the spell discrptions and names refering to arcane or divine acordingly.

pathfinder isn't just a game of mechanics, there is alot of flavor and roll playing that goes with it, so much so that people moved over to the system when WOTC introduced 4th ed and the lack of flavor/roll playing that came along with that system.

spells like guidance or bestow grace are more than just there mechanical implacations, thier divine refrence within the spell description remains even if cast as an arcane spell. in effect we can peal back the aftermarket paint to reveal the true colors underneath if we look beyond what effect they have on the math.


ML if spells can count as both arcane and divine for the purpose of spell types then what is stopping early entry into the mystic theurge prestige class?

Quote:

Requirements

To qualify to become a mystic theurge, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 3 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 3 ranks.

Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells.

Quote:

Bull's Strength

School transmutation; Level cleric 2, druid 2, paladin 2, sorcerer/wizard 2

Now as a wizard 2/cleric 1 or vice-versa I have access to a spell that is both divine and arcane according to your interpretation of the rule.

So I can be a wizard 2/cleric 1/MT 1. That however is not possible by the rules as the way they are, and any thread in any forum to include Enworld, Giants in the playground, and WotC's boards, and Paizo shows that is not accurate.

I would also like to see a rule that says a spell is specifically arcane or divine, no matter which class is casting it, or at least a rule that says a spell originally starts off as with a specific designation. I am sure you can not find such a rule however. I am beginning to think you are trolling. If you are not trolling then arguing with people who have been playing the game for years, and obviously know the rules a lot better than you do seems silly at best.


MLHagan wrote:
...pathfinder isn't just a game of mechanics, there is alot of flavor and roll playing that goes with it...

Ironic close mindedness against 4th ed aside;

Gorbacz wrote:
Fluff =/= Rules.

EDIT: Fix'd.


Aioran, thanks. That is why I phrased it carefully. I did state: "that I am aware of".

So, there are two more abilities out there that can rip from any class. Doesn't change anything. Arcane classes still cast arcane spells regardless of where they rip it from and Divine classes still cast divine spells regardless of where they rip it from. :)

- Gauss


MLHagan wrote:
Gauss wrote:

*sighs* you so missed the point

They cannot be colored differently before they are handed to different classes. They are given properly to each class. Class is divine? uses divine spells. Class is Arcane? uses arcane spells.

Mystic Past Life is NOT able to rips off another classes spells across the Divine/Arcane divide. They must be the same: Divine-Divine or Arcane-Arcane. (IE: could not repaint the golf balls because the Developers decreed it.)

Ancient Lorekeeper (Elven Arcana) is the ONLY class I am aware of that allows you to rip off a Wizard's spells across the Divine/Arcane divide. But because of the rules (and lack of exception stating otherwise) the 'stolen' arcane spells become divine spells for the Ancient Lorekeeper. (IE: repainted the golf balls because the Developers decreed it.)

Now, if you still don't get it I am sorry.

- Gauss

no i get that you where trying to say that all golf balls start out white, or all spells start out without an inclination towards divine or arcane as it where. but it doesn't say that anywhere in the rules and is forcable over looks the spell discrptions and names refering to arcane or divine acordingly.

pathfinder isn't just a game of mechanics, there is alot of flavor and roll playing that goes with it, so much so that people moved over to the system when WOTC introduced 4th ed and the lack of flavor/roll playing that came along with that system.

spells like guidance or bestow grace are more than just there mechanical implacations, thier divine refrence within the spell description remains even if cast as an arcane spell. in effect we can peal back the aftermarket paint to reveal the true colors underneath if we look beyond what effect they have on the math.

Fluff is also not rules. The cleave feat and how it does not allow you to cleave multiple mirror images is an example of that.

By the fluff you are only making one attack that extends from target to target, but by the mechanics you are making several attacks which must hit the intended target.

Fluff is mutable. Mechanics are not without changing how the game works. The horselord archetype also has fluff and mechanics that disagree. The fluff says you can choose basically any mount you want, but the actual rules have specific restrictions that greatly limit you.


Heck Wraithstrike: he has been told much of this by James Jacobs too. I actually do think he is trolling but because Im bored Im playing along. I really shouldn't feed the trolls.

*goes back to feeding the troll*

MLHagan: The game IS a bunch of mechanics with RP added on top. Fluff is just that, fluff. You can use fluff to justify rules but the rules come first. You can also use the fluff to overrule the rules. But at that point you are in houserule territory. This is a rules forum not a houserules forum.

So the rules: The rules state that spells cast by arcane classes are arcane and that spells cast by divine classes are divine. The fluff does NOT change that rule. The names of the spell does not change that rule. The fluff of the spells does not change that rule.

Just because a spell has 'divine' in the spell name means exactly two things: Jack and Squat. (I always wanted to say that! heheh)

- Gauss


wraithstrike wrote:

ML if spells can count as both arcane and divine for the purpose of spell types then what is stopping early entry into the mystic theurge prestige class?

you misunderstand, spells like detect magic can be cast as either arcane or divine spells, as with cure light wounds and the like. just because a spell itself can be either or is both dose not mean that a given spell caster can cast them as both. wizards cast there spells using arcane magic and clerics using divine magic. thats not to say that a spell can't be arcane or divine but that most spells fall somewhere in between.

humans can be new borns or on there death bed, there is also a hole lot at vering degrees inbetween.

wraithstrike wrote:


Fluff is also not rules. The cleave feat and how it does not allow you to cleave multiple mirror images is an example of that.

By the fluff you are only making one attack that extends from target to target, but by the mechanics you are making several attacks which must hit the intended target.

without fluff we are sitting at a table with a math problem, player 1 with an a4 race and an x3 class.... its not an rpg without the flavor. an arcane wizard with no god casing divine power doesn't fit into the fluff and is just mechanics, and i think that is the point of the restriction set in mystic past life.

Fluff is mutable. Mechanics are not without changing how the game works. The horselord archetype also has fluff and mechanics that disagree. The fluff says you can choose basically any mount you want, but the actual rules have specific restrictions that greatly limit you.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
MLHagan wrote:


without fluff we are sitting at a table with a math problem, player 1 with an a4 race and an x3 class....

Congratulations, you've discovered that D&D/PF is a tactical wargame ruleset that facilitates role-playing. Just like Gary Gygax invented it! Games that do things the other way round (read: combat and math are secondary elements, fluff > all) are ----> that way.


MLHagan wrote:
without fluff we are sitting at a table with a math problem, player 1 with an a4 race and an x3 class.... its not an rpg without the flavor. an arcane wizard with no god casing divine power doesn't fit into the fluff and is just mechanics, and i think that is the point of the restriction set in mystic past life.

You're talking about Fluff and RAI in a RAW forum. I think what Gorbacz is trying to say is that this has ceased to be about RAW and should either be moved to another forum or restarted in another thread in another forum.


Yeah, gotta love the fact that D&D was born out of a wargame (Chainmail rules were the predecessor iirc). Especially since I am a Wargamer at heart (RPG gaming is my second gaming passion.)

- Gauss


MLHagan wrote:


you misunderstand, spells like detect magic can be cast as either arcane or divine spells, as with cure light wounds and the like. just because a spell itself can be either or is both dose not mean that a given spell caster can cast them as both. wizards cast there spells using arcane magic and clerics using divine magic. thats not to say that a spell can't be arcane or divine but that most spells fall somewhere in between.

Yeah they can be cast as arcane or divine depending on the class.

If you are saying the spells themselves and not the class is the factor then provide a rules quote.

wraithstrike wrote:


Fluff is also not rules. The cleave feat and how it does not allow you to cleave multiple mirror images is an example of that.

By the fluff you are only making one attack that extends from target to target, but by the mechanics you are making several attacks which must hit the intended target.

Quote:


without fluff we are sitting at a table with a math problem, player 1 with an a4 race and an x3 class.... its not an rpg without the flavor. an arcane wizard with no god casing divine power doesn't fit into the fluff and is just mechanics, and i think that is the point of the restriction set in mystic past life.

I never said fluff was not a part of the game, but the fluff/flavor is not the rules. It is just window dressing.

You can easily say that a sorcerer is powered by some unknown power much like the Silver Surfer was gifted his power by Galactus. However by the rules he is still arcane, but his flavor can be divine. Like I said fluff is mutable. You can always change fluff without changing the game. You can't do it with mechanics because the game will change. You can choose any feat in the book and it will be proven.


Gauss wrote:


So the rules: The rules state that spells cast by arcane classes are arcane and that spells cast by divine classes are divine. The fluff does NOT change that rule. The names of the spell does not change that rule. The fluff of the spells does not change that rule.

Just because a spell has 'divine' in the spell name means exactly two things: Jack and Squat. (I always wanted to say that! heheh)

- Gauss

so according to you it is the spell caster and only the spell caster that determines is a spell is arcane or divine correct? this is what you have siad multiple times and have yet to provide and rule refrences to back up that.

you have accepted that alchemist do not cast spells and are neither arcane or divine casters. they have a spell list, do the spells on there list have no affeliation or type (arcane or divine)?

if spells are neither divine or arcane prior to being selected be a spell casting class then how do you explain some spells requiring a divine focus? after all and according to you it is not divine before it is selected by a class. this is not fluf or flavor, it is mechanics, which seams to be the only thing that you are willing to concider. how many arcane spell casters walk around with a divine focus?

what about spells that do not require a divine focus but require a material componite? last i checked most divine spell casters don't walk around with full spell componite pouches after all.

then there are the spells that can use either divine focus or material componite, how do you explain these?

remember that the componiets required to cast a spell do not change if it is cast as a divine spell or arcane spell.


wraithstrike wrote:

Yeah they can be cast as arcane or divine depending on the class.

If you are saying the spells themselves and not the class is the factor then provide a rules quote.

again, advanced race guide, page 198, right hand side, first paragraph

The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you’re adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell.

note that it is asking about a spell and not a class as a source for that spell. it goes on in the example to say that,

divine power is a divine spell.

again, no refrence to what class is casting it or any class where it came from, just that the spell itself is divine.


MLHagan wrote:
Gauss wrote:


So the rules: The rules state that spells cast by arcane classes are arcane and that spells cast by divine classes are divine. The fluff does NOT change that rule. The names of the spell does not change that rule. The fluff of the spells does not change that rule.

Just because a spell has 'divine' in the spell name means exactly two things: Jack and Squat. (I always wanted to say that! heheh)

- Gauss

so according to you it is the spell caster and only the spell caster that determines is a spell is arcane or divine correct? this is what you have siad multiple times and have yet to provide and rule refrences to back up that.

That's only half true.

MLHagan wrote:
you have accepted that alchemist do not cast spells and are neither arcane or divine casters. they have a spell list, do the spells on there list have no affeliation or type (arcane or divine)?

Correction: They have a formulae list.


MLHagan wrote:

divine power is a divine spell.

again, no refrence to what class is casting it or any class where it came from, just that the spell itself is divine.

*sigh*

Name the classes that have Divine Power on their class list.
Now, for the hard part: What do all these classes have in common, spell-casting-wise?

BTW: Would it kill you to buy -or use- a keyboard with, say, a working Shift key?


Aioran wrote:


Correction: They have a formulae list.

no spell casting and no spell list, my goodness, then there really must be no way for such spells to be either divine or arcane now could there? good thing they don't have to provide a divine focus for their non divine spell right? shame arcane spell casters can't overlook the same thing.


MLHagan wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

Yeah they can be cast as arcane or divine depending on the class.

If you are saying the spells themselves and not the class is the factor then provide a rules quote.

again, advanced race guide, page 198, right hand side, first paragraph

The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you’re adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell.

note that it is asking about a spell and not a class as a source for that spell. it goes on in the example to say that,

divine power is a divine spell.

again, no refrence to what class is casting it or any class where it came from, just that the spell itself is divine.

That is because the spell was written for divine classes. Authors also sometimes make mistakes. That is one of them. He should never have assumed the divine power will never be available to an arcane spell casting class. You still have not quoted a rule, but only a blurb that gives a bad example.

What he should have said was that since divine power is not on any arcane class's spell list it can not be added as an arcane spell. That would be the more accurate statement.


wraithstrike wrote:
MLHagan wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

Yeah they can be cast as arcane or divine depending on the class.

If you are saying the spells themselves and not the class is the factor then provide a rules quote.

again, advanced race guide, page 198, right hand side, first paragraph

The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you’re adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell.

note that it is asking about a spell and not a class as a source for that spell. it goes on in the example to say that,

divine power is a divine spell.

again, no refrence to what class is casting it or any class where it came from, just that the spell itself is divine.

That is because the spell was written for divine classes. Authors also sometimes make mistakes. That is one of them. He should never have assumed the divine power will never be available to an arcane spell casting class. You still have not quoted a rule, but only a blurb that gives a bad example.

What he should have said was that since divine power is not on any arcane class's spell list it can not be added as an arcane spell. That would be the more accurate statement.

i refrenced the rules for mystic past life, for a full account it has been post several times in this thread including the Original Post.

no where in mystic past life does it specific anything about what class you are choosing the spell from only spells themselfs.

if spells are only arcane or divine depending upon the caster then explain a divine focus requirement within the spell itself. these requirments remain with the spell reguarless of the caster though some casters are capable of ignoring it such as an oracle which "Oracles do not need to provide a divine focus to cast spells that list divine focus (DF) as part of the components." but thats ok, oracles are divine casters anyways.


MLHagan wrote:
Aioran wrote:


Correction: They have a formulae list.
no spell casting and no spell list, my goodness, then there really must be no way for such spells to be either divine or arcane now could there? good thing they don't have to provide a divine focus for their non divine spell right? shame arcane spell casters can't overlook the same thing.

Correct, correct, divine focuses are a component of some divine casters and not not a component of some divine and non-divine casters.

101 to 150 of 275 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / What makes a divine spell divine? All Messageboards