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So, I'm playing a summoner in PFS, and I have a quadruped Eidilion I''m making into a dragon. To help him out, I'd like to get the creature some magical items. However, I'm at a loss for what magical items would be appropriate since most of the slots are built out for the standard humanoid races.
Could I get a ruling on what sort of magical items could be used on a quadruped dragon Eidilion?
Tarrintino
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Unfortunately, Eidolons can't wear armor.
Armor Bonus: The number noted here is the eidolon's base total armor bonus. This bonus may be split between an armor bonus and a natural armor bonus, as decided by the summoner. This number is modified by the eidolon's base form and some options available through its evolution pool. An eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind, as the armor interferes with the summoner's connection to the eidolon.
Italics added
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I could have sworn that I read somewhere that Eidolons and the Summoner share magic item slots(so you can let your Eidolon wear a ring, but then it uses up one of your Ring slot). Unfortunately, I can't for the life of me find the actual text now.
Correct, but to wear a ring one must have fingers. To have hands an eidolon needs the evolution limbs (arms) which a quad does not have (unless purchased separately). On a related note, the feet that come with the limbs (legs) evolution are different with quads than bipeds. Boots will not fit on a quad's feet, but could be allowed on biped's feet.
The last line of link ('appropriate appendage' quoted above) is the important bit there.
I forgot about the armor so a quad would be limited to the neck slot.
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I could have sworn that I read somewhere that Eidolons and the Summoner share magic item slots(so you can let your Eidolon wear a ring, but then it uses up one of your Ring slot). Unfortunately, I can't for the life of me find the actual text now.Correct, but to wear a ring one must have fingers. To have hands an eidolon needs the evolution limbs (arms) which a quad does not have (unless purchased separately). On a related note, the feet that come with the limbs (legs) evolution are different with quads than bipeds. Boots will not fit on a quad's feet, but could be allowed on biped's feet.
The last line of link ('appropriate appendage' quoted above) is the important bit there.
I forgot about the armor so a quad would be limited to the neck slot.
What about a headband? Quadrupeds have heads, don't they?
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animal companions Can't have anything other than armor or neck slots, I don't think the same applies to quadraped eidelons.
If it does, you're going to see a run to the bipedal ones. The ability to wear gear is pretty much unbeatable as you level.
I agree. A cloak could easily be draped over a quad like a caparison, bracers should fit their legs just fine, and boots? Well, if a tiefling with hooves can wear them, why not an eidolon?
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So, I'm playing a summoner in PFS, and I have a quadruped Eidilion I''m making into a dragon. To help him out, I'd like to get the creature some magical items. However, I'm at a loss for what magical items would be appropriate since most of the slots are built out for the standard humanoid races.
Could I get a ruling on what sort of magical items could be used on a quadruped dragon Eidilion?
Tarrintino
If you are making a Dragon eidolon, may I suggest you invest in Improved Natural Armor as frequently as possible, and then keep the beast in Mage Armor as much as possible. Further advancement begs for Barkskin (which, unless I am mistaken, stacks with existent Natural Armor). Throw a Shield spell on the creature when actual combat occurs, and it should have an AC appropriate to an actual dragon. It also reduces any need to use a slot for the items.
What I would recommend would be an Amulet of Mighty Fists with an energy type that fits the kind of dragon you are imagining. Last time I asked, nobody thought it was wrong to stack this energy damage with the kind one can purchase as an evolution. So, if the dragon is pouncing and going claw/claw/bite/wing buffet/wing buffet (for example), that extra energy damage could start to look frightening.
Other than that, belt the STR as high as you can.
Such are my meager suggestions. But my version of a dragon build is of the 'were-' variety and happily bipedal.
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What I would recommend would be an Amulet of Mighty Fists with an energy type that fits the kind of dragon you are imagining. Last time I asked, nobody thought it was wrong to stack this energy damage with the kind one can purchase as an evolution. So, if the dragon is pouncing and going claw/claw/bite/wing buffet/wing buffet (for example), that extra energy damage could start to look frightening..
Upping Natural Armor when possible along with STR is a good move at low levels with Eidolons. They struggle at early levels due to low HP; you may even want to consider taking Toughness just to counterbalance starting out with 5 HP on their d10 hit die. The real difficulty is going to be figuring out what is more important to the dragon's theme: Breath Weapon and/or Spells vs. Raw Physical Power. Breath Weapon auto-scales to the Eidolon's hit dice, but is an expensive 4 points for the 1/Day version. It can cost up to 7 for 3/Day. Taking the Spell Like Ability route is also pretty pricey.
I'm not sure about stacking/doubling up on Energy Damage of the same type through both an Amulet of Mighty Fists and the Evolution. But that is a Rules Forum query, not one for the PFS boards. But I will testify to the horrifying nature of multiple primary natural attacks and energy damage. At level ten my biped can, via power attack flaming claw/claw/bite/gore, churn out an average of 84 damage a round with a full set of hits. 105 if he's hasted (standard procedure on my Summoner).
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as far as i can tell there is nothing preventing you from wearing whatever as an eidalon, as long as the slot remains open.
the only limitation is the "appropriate appendage"
Armor: -they cannot wear
Belts: wearable by a quad
Body: not wearable by a quad
Chest: wearable by a quad
Eyes: wearable by a quad
Feet: not wearable by a quad
Hands: not wearable by a quad
Head: wearable by a quad
Headband: wearable by a quad
Neck: wearable by a quad
Ring (up to two): as far as i can tell, there is nothing preventing you from putting it on a tail, horn or any other area you could conceivably put a ring around.
Shield: shields.
Shoulders: wearable by a quad
Wrist: wearable by a quadthe fact is, anything that is part of a dog costume you pretty much can slap on that badboy.
RAW: The eidolon must possess the appropriate appendages to utilize a magic item.
I think rings need to go on fingers and that requires hands. No tail, tooth or horn wearing is allowed.
RAW: An eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind, as the armor
interferes with the summoner’s connection to the eidolon.
Not sure if the armor prohibition also includes shields. (Again I would expect that hands are a requirement to use one.)
RAW: The summoner and his eidolon share magic item slots. For
example, if the summoner is wearing a ring, his eidolon
can wear no more than one ring. In case of a conf lict, the
items worn by the summoner remain active, and those used
by the eidolon become dormant.
Whatever item slots your eidolon uses is a slot that the summoner can no longer use or if he does the eidolon's item stops working.
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RAW: The eidolon must possess the appropriate appendages to utilize a magic item.
Right, but the eidelon looks like what you imagine it to be. Some quadrupeds, raccoons and dragons for instance, have claws that are approximate enough for fingers to feasibly slip a ring on. Even if PFS won't allow them for a raccoon, they're not banned for eidelon's.
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RAW: The eidolon must possess the appropriate appendages to utilize a magic item.Right, but the eidelon looks like what you imagine it to be. Some quadrupeds, raccoons and dragons for instance, have claws that are approximate enough for fingers to feasibly slip a ring on. Even if PFS won't allow them for a raccoon, they're not banned for eidelon's.
No, they arent. But to make use of a ring, it must be worn on a finger. To have fingers, the eidolon must have hands. To have hands, the quadruped eidolon must take the appendages (arms) evolution. Having 'claws' that are like fingers on your appendages (legs) does not count.
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as far as i can tell there is nothing preventing you from wearing whatever as an eidalon, as long as the slot remains open.
the only limitation is the "appropriate appendage"
Ring (up to two): as far as i can tell, there is nothing preventing you from putting it on a tail, horn or any other area you could conceivably put a ring around.
the fact is, anything that is part of a dog costume you pretty much can slap on that badboy.
the something preventing. FWIW dog costumes all* attach at the neck slot like a collar. Not to mention if the dog is not sitting it does not quite fit. There are a few goggles motorcyclists have that MIGHT work, but because the neck attaches differently on a dog than a human the cheap ones do not work. From my personal experience & again I have never tried the expensive ones. YMMV. An argument could be made for the harness slot, but there is no harness slot in PFS.
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No, they arent. But to make use of a ring, it must be worn on a finger.
This is the part that isn't spelled out by raw (but it wouldn't surprise me if PFS goes with it) A ring has to be worn to be used. You can only get two. After that the rules are technically silent on WHERE you have to wear it (leading to some bad jokes and creativity over the years) Even if it does have to be on your hands, there's little reason why the analogous place on a quadruped wouldn't work as long as they can put a ring on it, or why your imaginary critter can't have fingers on their hands (raccoon, dragon, possum, massage beast)
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No, they arent. But to make use of a ring, it must be worn on a finger.This is the part that isn't spelled out by raw (but it wouldn't surprise me if PFS goes with it) A ring has to be worn to be used. You can only get two. After that the rules are technically silent on WHERE you have to wear it (leading to some bad jokes and creativity over the years) Even if it does have to be on your hands, there's little reason why the analogous place on a quadruped wouldn't work as long as they can put a ring on it, or why your imaginary critter can't have fingers on their hands (raccoon, dragon, possum, massage beast)
It doesnt matter if it is spelled out in RAW or not. Mike Brock has already ruled that rings must be worn on fingers. And again, an eidolon has to have the Appendages (arms) evolution to have hands and fingers.
You could use RAI to say that because a synthesist summoner's eidolon must have arms for the summoner (while inside the 'suit') to be able to cast spells and cant use it's leg-hands than a regular eidolon cant use leg-hands for anything that a regular foot couldnt be used for, including wearing a ring.
Also, if they were allowed to get around it, what's to stop someone from arguing that the quadruped eidolon could use it's four legs to climb a rope, tie a know, use a wand, or anything else that actual hands/fingers are required to be able to do?
Taking the quadruped form has it's advantages (the ability to take 'Pounce'), but not being able to wear rings is one of it's disadvantages. You shouldn't get to just flavor that away.
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It doesnt matter if it is spelled out in RAW or not. Mike Brock has already ruled that rings must be worn on fingers. And again, an eidolon has to have the Appendages (arms) evolution to have hands and fingers.
Mike brock has spelled out the first part but not the second. He might go that way, but I don't think its a given that anything that's a quadruped can't wear rings.
The forms are already balanced against each other (the the biped getting manufactured weapons and the highest strength score) Denying quadrupeds magical items would throw that balance off.
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It doesnt matter if it is spelled out in RAW or not. Mike Brock has already ruled that rings must be worn on fingers. And again, an eidolon has to have the Appendages (arms) evolution to have hands and fingers.Mike brock has spelled out the first part but not the second. He might go that way, but I don't think its a given that anything that's a quadruped can't wear rings.
The forms are already balanced against each other (the the biped getting manufactured weapons and the highest strength score) Denying quadrupeds magical items would throw that balance off.
I'm not denying the quadruped anything. It can take the Apendages (arms) evolution just like anything else, and then have the ability to wear rings. Same with the Snake-thing form.
Actually, I think if an eidolon has the Limbs (Arms) and Limbs (Legs) evolutions, then it has appropriate appendages for any magic item that it might want to use.
Of course, you should also consider how magic items might interfere with natural attacks -- gloves and boots would prevent the use of the corresponding claw attacks, for example.
In any event, the primary items that you want for an eidolon are a ring of protection, an amulet of might fists, and a belt to boost one or more physical stats. Once you have access to the high level versions, bracers of armor are also useful. I tend to favor saving the cloak of resistance and headband (of charisma) for the summoner.
Rings of protection are not a problem -- you have two ring slots, so you can get one for the summoner and one for the eidolon.
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when I am a game designer, I will add an evolution. The 1 point evolution will be:
item slot (SU) this evolution can be added to any portion of the eidolon's body to correspond to a humanoid's and allows a slotted magic item to be worn. These items do not increase the number of items an eidolon can wear beyond the normal maximum (one for most items). Items are still limited by the summoner's items per life link. This evolution can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time an eidolon selects this evolution, it applies to a different item slot. Also the eidolon can wear little superhero costumes made for household pets.
It will be so popular all eidolons everywhere will take it and at cons dress like Superman TM, and Yoda TM, and Seoni TM and I will be famous.
Have a question that is just asking and not trying to get away with anything. Could one just pay for an evolution like arms and not actually have the arms on the eidolon? Would that be allowable to have a quad take that evolution and not grow arms but able to use rings on the feet? Seems like it should be possible but figure that rules won't allow it.
I know this is for a character I dislike discussing and is not for Pathfinder but I can't help but think or Drizzt and his bracers. The bracers are for the wrists and yet he moved them to the ankles.
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Of course, you should also consider how magic items might interfere with natural attacks -- gloves and boots would prevent the use of the corresponding claw attacks, for example.
So, do you house rule in PFS often?
Or does this only apply to Eidolons? What about natural weapon Rangers? No gloves for them?
Do you also rule that helmets interfere with bite attacks?
House rules, in PFS, are a bad thing. House rules often run into the wall of the Law of Unintended Consequences.
Gloves don't allow natural claw attacks is going to have all sorts of unintended consequences. Including whether helmets prevent bite attacks.
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My skinks are very near snake-like in physiology* Technically a quad though nearly serpent game terms. Paying for the limbs (arms) evolution and having very tiny arms (like a T-Rex) with hands that lay flat and unabtrusive (like a legless lizard or a croc) or the features of a frilled lizard or cobra should be OK. You are paying for the arms at point and eidolons are supposed to other-wordly. Adding hands to your legs... not so much. Feet that grip like hands (raccoons, apes, etc) are another story and allowed (climb is an evolution after all...hooves is also an evolution), but are still feet. That is splitting hairs I dinnae want to get in.
*to wit, having arms and legs does not in my mind automatically qualify the eidolon for belt, head, headband, eyes, shoulders.
I was thinking more of spending the evolution point only as a way to use rings. Sort of like toe rings. If I was to do it then I would likely go the way of the suggestions on having the small arms that lay flat with the body.
I am not going to worry about it too much for myself. I do think though that it should be easy enough to have an evolution that allows the use of a magic slot since it does take away from the summoner using that slot.
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Preface: I am totally new to Pathfinder and PFS and pretty much role playing so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
To me when I here the term role playing it conjures the thought of using your imagination. I picked Summoner ( I have just built him and will use him for the first time tomorrow) because his stuff is very imagination driven. The Eidolon gives you the opportunity to sculpt if you will your own creature! That said I have chosen a dragon like form for mine as well. This begs the question what does a dragon look like? In fantasy dragons have taken lots of shapes and body types. Some are definate four legged creatures while others have large back legs and almost arm like front appendages. The later tending to walk on its hind legs the former on all fours. So in my humble opinion you could have a dragon with either quadruped or biped. However whose to say your dragon isn't almost centaur like with 4 legs and 2 arms? Of course in game terms you would need to purchase these as evolutions. Dragons are a cool critter with a world of different shapes and sizes. Some can talk some can't. Some have magic some don't. Some breath fire some don't. Lots of room for imagination. I love reading books with dragons. Ted Dekkers books are awesome. So when I saw the Summoner classes Eidolon and figured out I could sculpt a dragon I knew I found the class for me.
Now if I can teach my dragon to play Ticket to Ride or Agricola and get away with it I will have achieved something. ;)
Signed,
New Player.
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For dragons equiping / using magic items we'll fall back to an old AD&D reference.
What appropriate anatomy consists of is not explicitly defined by RAW. We'll just have to use our imaginations. (Who would have though, imagination in an RPG.)
Take my giant raccoon eidolon. There is absolutly no way you can tell just by looking if I have defined him as a quadraped or a biped. My eidolon, my choice.
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So, just for clarification, was there ever a definitive answer as to what items a quad Eidolon can use? I can see that I'd have to take arms to wear the rings, but what about belts?
Also, can a biped base form be used to create a centaur-like creature by adding more legs, or does it have to be a quad form?
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Nothing definitive, but with the right evolution and common sense you can get just about anything.
You can create an eidolon any way you want. I think the UM lists centaur as quad first because the human-torso is medium with the smaller weapons rule. But you can add a pair of legs to a biped. Hmmm.... Biped with extra legs. Sounds creepier than saying half horse/half human :)