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Ok: lets take the Dire Tiger.
First: Grab gives a +4 to grapple checks made with Grab.
Second: the check to maintain a grapple gets a +5 bonus.
On a charge attack it gets a Bite, 2claws, and 2 rake attacks. This is due to pounce.
If either the bite or the claw attacks hit then a grab check (CMB+4) is made. Success means the tiger has grappled the target.
If the target has not broken free then next round the Tiger makes another grapple check (CMB+9) to maintain grapple. If successful the Tiger does damage with whichever bodypart made the inital grapple check. THEN the Tiger makes 2 rake attacks.
The tiger does not make attacks with any other body parts. Just the 1 that is maintaining the grab (which does automatic damage on the successful maintain grapple check) and the 2 rake attacks.
- Gauss
I have always understood it so that once you make the grapple check successfully it cancels out the remaining attacks also. That is why I never go for the grapple check until the last attack that allows me to do so.
Carn:
I do not know if the further attacks are rolled or not. My take is to roll them and then if you have multiple grapples connected choose the most advantageous (bite in this case). There are other people who state that once you grapple your attack sequence ends.
Regarding the next round:
Maintain grapple comes first, then choose result (I see a tiger choosing damage by default), THEN the rake.
While yes, you can use a free action to release the grapple and make a full attack it would not be advantageous to do so (rake is not first).
My understanding is that as the first action of each turn you must either maintain the grapple or release the grapple. Then you can choose one of the options. Rake does not specify that it occurs first (only that you must start the round grappled) and I believe it falls under the damage option since it is an attack. As a result the order should be Maintain -> Automatic Damage + Rake attack.
- Gauss
Wraithstrike, do you have any evidence that states it cancels out remaining attacks? I haven't seen any (not saying it does not exist).
- Gauss
Nope. It is one of those things that has never been answered in PF or 3.5 to my knowledge.
Wraithstrike, do you have any evidence that states it cancels out remaining attacks? I haven't seen any (not saying it does not exist).
- Gauss
It certainly did so in 3.5, however grapple has changed a decent amount.
-James
I just looked for it. I did not find the text for it.
My guess is that it wasn't conceived of properly. Grapple is normally a standard action. Without specific wording to the contrary I will run it as make all of your attacks. However, Carn I would ask your GM (unless you are the GM in which case youll have to decide for yourself).
The arguments for and against are something like:
Continued attacks: There is nothing that states 'stop attacking when you grapple'.
Stop attacks: Grapple condition requires a standard action to do anything. Once that condition is acquired you must have a standard action to do damage.
Regarding the stop attacks side: The standard action is for maintaining a grapple. Not for making attacks while grappled.
Either way, it is an unclear area.
- Gauss
P.S. If I misrepresented the for and against arguments, I was not trying to research them and do them correctly. I was doing it quick as Im heading to bed. 30minutes ago.
Our group has always played it in the most advantageous way (from the pouncer's perspective). In other words they get all the attacks on the pounce and all the attacks after a successful grapple regardless of when the grapple happens. Our impression has been that Grab specifically breaks the "stop attack" rule that Gauss referenced.
I will state that this makes Pounce very powerful, but we are under the impression that it is powerful by design, not as a mistake during development. This is also why we believe it is not very easy to get Pounce on a PC and many of the methods that are used to obtain it end up with banworthy, campaign wrecking, OP characters (like RAGELANCEPOUNCE).
I also think that dogs really got the short end of the stick. OOooo, trip. Psh. Pounce > Trip. Dogs fail. Cats win. ...wtf?!
Yep. Thats my interpretation, carn.
Grapple doesn't prevent full attack maintaining does. So successfully grabbing in the pounce doesn't stop the pounce.
Grapple doesn't prevent full attack maintaining does. So successfully grabbing in the pounce doesn't stop the pounce.
Yep, I noticed the errata in the D20PFSRD.
From my understanding of the rules, pounce would go as follows:
Cat charges
Cat Bites and hits
Grab is initiated as a free action
Grapple Check is not considered a standard action in this case
Grapple check does nothing to the flow of combat at this point
Cat Claws
Cat Claws
Cat Rakes
Cat Rakes
Every following turn the Cat makes a grapple check to maintain the hold and can do a full attack.
You are only restricted to doing the damage with the attack that made the grab IF you are attempting to "hold" the creature, where it's still grappled but you are not.
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Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.
Format: grab; Location: individual attacks.
So a creature with grab can use grapple rules normally or take the -20 on CMB to maintain but without gaining the grappled condition itself. However, it doesn't state how the 2nd option's action is used. Is it a free action? Swift? Still a standard? Since it's not stated, I assume it is a standard action. The only benefit is if the CMB to maintain is successful, the creature does not have grappled condition (which is nice).
However, this part
A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
does not make sense. It's extra words. The hold does not deal any extra damage. Well okay, but why would people assume that? I HATE reminder text in an area where it is not needed, because it causes needless confusion. If we follow normal rules, as long as the grapple is maintained, it automatically does damage based on the attack that started the grapple. Then that creature can apply an effect from successfully maintaining a grapple (damage, pin, release, etc). If creature has constrict, constrict damage applies as well when grapple is maintained.
Format: rake (2 claws +8, 1d4+2); Location: Special Attacks.
So the creature would get rakes if grapple is established/maintained because it's a free action to perform rake attacks.
So to me the order is:
Charge, Pounce (full round action)
Bite
Starts grapple (we'll assume successful)
Constrict (if any)
Claw
Claw
Rake
Rake
2nd round:
Standard to maintain (regardless of normal maintain or -20 maintain to not be in grapple for the initiating creature), we'll assume successful.
Bite damage (this the auto damage from success)
Rake (free actions)
Rake (free actions)
Options of damage, release, pin, etc (maybe more damage, or maybe pin, or maybe release if target is doing lots of damage while in grapple).
Continue to further rounds.
That's how I see these steps.
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Grapple doesn't prevent full attack maintaining does. So successfully grabbing in the pounce doesn't stop the pounce.Yep, I noticed the errata in the D20PFSRD.
From my understanding of the rules, pounce would go as follows:
Cat charges
Cat Bites and hits
Grab is initiated as a free action
Grapple Check is not considered a standard action in this case
Grapple check does nothing to the flow of combat at this point
Cat Claws
Cat Claws
Cat Rakes
Cat RakesEvery following turn the Cat makes a grapple check to maintain the hold and can do a full attack.
You are only restricted to doing the damage with the attack that made the grab IF you are attempting to "hold" the creature, where it's still grappled but you are not.
You are half right here. The first round is correct since the grapple attempt is a free action because of the grab ability. Once the second round starts the attacker has to decide first whether to maintain the grapple (standard action) or release (free action) before it can do anything. If it decides to maintain and spend that standard action then it CANNOT make a full attack (it only has a move action left).
However if it RELEASES the target and then decides to full attack it can re-establish the grapple on any of the hits and go from there. The cat would lose the rake attempts since it didn't maintain or pounce but it would keep the +5 to grapple attempts.
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2nd round:
Standard to maintain (regardless of normal maintain or -20 maintain to not be in grapple for the initiating creature), we'll assume successful.
Bite damage (this the auto damage from success)
Rake (free actions)
Rake (free actions)
Options of damage, release, pin, etc (maybe more damage, or maybe pin, or maybe release if target is doing lots of damage while in grapple).Why is damage from grappling attack dealt twice?
According to grapple rules, one decides at for maintaining grapple, pinning or letting go, with the first giving the option to deal damage.
Furthermore, the rake happens regardless of whether maintaining grapple or not is chosen. And its not maintain and then decide, its decide and then maybe roll to maintain, so correct order:
"2nd round:
Rake (free actions)
Rake (free actions)
Options of maintain, release, pin, etc (maybe more damage, or maybe pin, or maybe release if target is doing lots of damage while in grapple).
If maintain, roll to maintain (regardless of normal maintain or -20 maintain to not be in grapple for the initiating creature), we'll assume successful.
Select one option, among them damage"Only 3 damage sources if maintained, not 4.
Because of how it is written. Look again at the bold.
Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.
Format: grab; Location: individual attacks.
The bold says so. It says on a successful grapple on successive rounds (so not the 1st round, but all rounds after that). That's from grab. To me that says a creature with grab does auto damage from the attack that started the grapple by using grab. If creature has constrict, that damage applies as well.
Then creature chooses his normal options (damage, move, pin, tie up. I mistyped the earlier ones with damage, pin, release.)
Then rakes.
4 damage sources.
But rakes could be before maintain/release grapple. I was wrong on that. I was thinking M:tG rules, where upkeep happens first (maintaining grapple).
Rake free
Rake free
Maintain grapple as standard, either standard grapple, or -20 for creature not to gain grappled state as well.
Auto damage if grapple is successful.
Then choose which option (damage, pin, tie up, move).
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Also, rakes are conditionals. Normal standard rakes can only be used when a grapple is maintained. But different creatures will have different specifics on that.
So...
1st round, tiger charges with pounce
Bite
Grapple from grab ability (assume success)
Claw
Claw
2nd round,
Rake
Rake
Maintain grapple (assume success)
Auto damage
Choose grapple option (damage, pin, tie up, move)
Release grapple (can be done as free anytime during the creature's turn)
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Grab is written kind of badly.
Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
Let's break it down.
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line.
No problems here.
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.
I think this means a tiger can use both claws and just grapple "normally". Or it can use only 1 of it's attacks at -20 so it can not get grappled condition and use up only 1 nature attack.
A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
Huh?
Successful hold does no EXTRA damage. Why is there extra damage? Where is it coming from? Why does constrict override this imaginary extra damage? So if I don't have constrict, if I maintain, I get free damage from the attack that started the grapple but only after the round grappled initiated. Okay, no problems there. But here comes constrict damage. Why is it otherwise? So if I don't do auto damage, I get constrict damage as well? WTF? Why would be "as well"? Why not just say, if you don't do auto damage from natural attack, you do constrict damage (if creature has constrict)?
Somebody break down the last parts of grab. It's...badly worded.
According to the grab description in the Beastiary:
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.
I've never really understood what exactly that means.
Does this in essence mean a tiger can just say "I grab and grapple you at -20" pretty much at anytime it hits? If so wouldn't that mean the foe still has to waste their action getting free (easily at -20) effectively robbing them of their attacks which is probably all you would care about if you summoned the tiger? All they could do is a move action which would probably provoke and give the tiger another chance to grapple them.
Am I understanding this correctly?
The tiger still has to succeed the maintenance grapple check to hold you, at a -20, so your CMD should often negate the attempt to begin with.
The "grab and hold" technique is something more often used by constricting snakes and monsters with tentacles, as they often have constrict and other bonuses to make holding easier for them.
Anyone can hold, but the -20 makes it prohibitive to most.
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According to the grab description in the Beastiary:The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.
I've never really understood what exactly that means.
Does this in essence mean a tiger can just say "I grab and grapple you at -20" pretty much at anytime it hits? If so wouldn't that mean the foe still has to waste their action getting free (easily at -20) effectively robbing them of their attacks which is probably all you would care about if you summoned the tiger? All they could do is a move action which would probably provoke and give the tiger another chance to grapple them.
Am I understanding this correctly?
That part you are understanding perfectly. I think the idea from design is to emulate that a predator would not allow the prey to get out very easily. Animals often grab with only a claw or bite, and force the prey to drag them around, tiring out the prey assuming the prey lived.
In game mechanics, this roughly translates to forcing the prey to use a standard action to break, and then move. It would provoke (unless 5' step). Predator can then pounce again and repeat.
It's pretty deadly to deal with if it's a 1v1 fight. But remember in a party, the party will just outnumber the creature and kill it.
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That part you are understanding perfectly. I think the idea from design is to emulate that a predator would not allow the prey to get out very easily. Animals often grab with only a claw or bite, and force the prey to drag them around, tiring out the prey assuming the prey lived.
In game mechanics, this roughly translates to forcing the prey to use a standard action to break, and then move. It would provoke (unless 5' step). Predator can then pounce again and repeat.
It's pretty deadly to deal with if it's a 1v1 fight. But remember in a party, the party will just outnumber the creature and kill it.
So first two claw attacks either one hits I can say "my tiger grabs and grapples at -20"
Now that they are grabbed I can apply my rake attacks?
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The tiger still has to succeed the maintenance grapple check to hold you, at a -20, so your CMD should often negate the attempt to begin with.
The "grab and hold" technique is something more often used by constricting snakes and monsters with tentacles, as they often have constrict and other bonuses to make holding easier for them.
Anyone can hold, but the -20 makes it prohibitive to most.
That's not what he means.
He's basically saying it's really powerful for a pouncing grab creature (like a tiger) to do the -20 grapple. But it's EASY to break, but the victim still has to use a standard action. He breaks, but the tiger grabs again if he hits.
It's basically a standard action lock, where the victim cannot do anything meaningful.
The way to break it is for the victim (if a PC) to full attack (if fighting classes) or cast a spell (hard, but half to do it) or something (channel negative energy? SU abilities?) to hurt the tiger, because playing that standard action lock game means the PC dies.
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That part you are understanding perfectly. I think the idea from design is to emulate that a predator would not allow the prey to get out very easily. Animals often grab with only a claw or bite, and force the prey to drag them around, tiring out the prey assuming the prey lived.
In game mechanics, this roughly translates to forcing the prey to use a standard action to break, and then move. It would provoke (unless 5' step). Predator can then pounce again and repeat.
It's pretty deadly to deal with if it's a 1v1 fight. But remember in a party, the party will just outnumber the creature and kill it.
So first two claw attacks either one hits I can say "my tiger grabs and grapples at -20"
Now that they are grabbed I can apply my rake attacks?
Your tiger has to succeed a CMB check against their CMD at a -20, THEN gets its rakes (if it's trying to only hold). If you're trying to do a full grapple, you don't take the -20.
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That part you are understanding perfectly. I think the idea from design is to emulate that a predator would not allow the prey to get out very easily. Animals often grab with only a claw or bite, and force the prey to drag them around, tiring out the prey assuming the prey lived.
In game mechanics, this roughly translates to forcing the prey to use a standard action to break, and then move. It would provoke (unless 5' step). Predator can then pounce again and repeat.
It's pretty deadly to deal with if it's a 1v1 fight. But remember in a party, the party will just outnumber the creature and kill it.
So first two claw attacks either one hits I can say "my tiger grabs and grapples at -20"
Now that they are grabbed I can apply my rake attacks?
No. Read rake.
Rake (Ex) A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature's description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
Format: rake (2 claws +8, 1d4+2); Location: Special Attacks.
According to the grab description in the Beastiary:The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.
I've never really understood what exactly that means.
Does this in essence mean a tiger can just say "I grab and grapple you at -20" pretty much at anytime it hits? If so wouldn't that mean the foe still has to waste their action getting free (easily at -20) effectively robbing them of their attacks which is probably all you would care about if you summoned the tiger? All they could do is a move action which would probably provoke and give the tiger another chance to grapple them.
Am I understanding this correctly?
Normally when you grapple something, no matter how big you are or how small they are, both become grappled. Meaning neither can freely move away, or threaten spaces.
Alternatively, something can elect to just use a single attack/(I say attack instead of limb, since it could be a bite, or a tentacle, but whatever it is that has the grab ability). The target is grappled, but the grappler is not (none of the normal penalties), but the attack is now dedicated to exclusively grappling, and at a -20 penalty. So after that point, say if you were full round attacking, it would be as normal, except that the 'grappling' attack would be used to maintain the grapple at -20, not doing another attack. Or you could say, fly away, and use the standard action to maintain the grapple with the attack.
Note that it doesn't affect the CMD to break the grapple. So getting free isn't easier, though the grappler is pretty likely to lose its grip, unless its CMB is astronomical, which can happen.
So yeah, you can summon tigers and make them try to grapple at -20. They are unlikely to pull off the grapple in the first place though.
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I would point out as I keep seeing it on the list of actions that Rake DOES NOT happen on the charge/pounce."it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn." Means the turn after the grapple. Also, by way it precludes raking, releasing, full attacking and grabbing again. If you want to rake you have to maintain the grapple.
EDIT: Totally missed the Pounce rules... never mind. Gotta go talk to my GM now lol. Thanks Mathwei
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I would point out as I keep seeing it on the list of actions that Rake DOES NOT happen on the charge/pounce."it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn." Means the turn after the grapple. Also, by way it precludes raking, releasing, full attacking and grabbing again. If you want to rake you have to maintain the grapple.
The pounce ability specifically allows you to rake on the round that you do the pounce.
Mathwei is correct, there's a weird exception.
Pounce (Ex)
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
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Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
The funny thing is I recalled that, but going off of rake, I changed my stance.
So...
Tiger charge
1st round:
Charge into Pounce
Bite
Grapple check because of grab ability (assume successful)
Claw
Claw
Rake
Rake
2nd round (assume target did not break grapple):
Rake
Rake
Maintain (assume successful)
Free damage on natural attack that initiated the grapple
Option (damage, pin, move, tie up)
I'm sure after about 5 versions, we got it this time! Grab ability still has a ton of weirdness about it that I broke down earlier.
It also has the option to
2nd round:
Rake
Rake
Drop (Free action)
Bite
Claw
Claw
And reestablish the grapple using Grab on claw/claw/bite. In this case the creature is sacrificing a +5 bonus to grapple checks as well as the option to pin etc. for an extra attack.
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This is an important topic. Where did we land officially?
Let me know if this synthesis of all that I've read is accurate, please? I'm running a military captain with schizophrenia along with his pet tiger next Monday. lol
Round 1:
Tiger (Bestiary p265), charges and attaks with 2 claws +10 (1d8+6), bite +9 (2d6+6 plus grab).
Tiger gets a +2 to attack with 1 attack since he is charging. He moves 35 feet toward the PC and strikes with a bite therefore getting free grab .
Looks like this round, the tiger only gets one attack due to the movement charge. Assuming success, he does 13 points of damage.
Round 2:
Tiger
The tiger, now makes a check to maintain the grapple , but does not get any penalties because it was the initial grappler.
The tiger maintains the grapple and can now does damage, rather than tie up or pin. Because maintaining the grapple is a standard action, the tiger cannot use all of it's attacks this round. The damage comes from one claw and does 8 points of damage.
Round 3: The tiger gets a +5 since its the first round after the initial maintain check.
There are probably flaws in the scenario written above. What are they?
I tend to learn better when applied to a detailed scenario. Thanks.
It also has the option to
2nd round:
Rake
Rake
Drop (Free action)
Bite
Claw
ClawAnd reestablish the grapple using Grab on claw/claw/bite. In this case the creature is sacrificing a +5 bonus to grapple checks as well as the option to pin etc. for an extra attack.
That's kind of diabolical, but I think you're right, it's rules valid as the rakes and drop are considered free actions.
Pax, assuming it's a full-grown tiger and not an animal companion below level 7:
It can use its pounce ability to get a 5 attacks on the charge in the first round. Bite, Claw, Claw, Rake, Rake and can grab on any of the first 3 attacks.
Round 2, it maintains the grapple, so Grab deals damage, then it can deal more damage as a grapple option, and can rake twice more so probably doub Grab(Bite damage), Grapple(Bite damage), Rake, Rake.
This is giving me a nasty idea for an encounter.
Fighting a cat in a thick forest with lots of foliage.
The cat pounces on it's turn and grabs, raking.
It rakes next turn, drops grapple and withdraws into the foliage and stealths.
Next turn, it repeats.
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A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).Huh?
Successful hold does no EXTRA damage. Why is there extra damage? Where is it coming from? Why does constrict override this imaginary extra damage? So if I don't have constrict, if I maintain, I get free damage from the attack that started the grapple but only after the round grappled initiated. Okay, no problems there. But here comes constrict damage. Why is it otherwise? So if I don't do auto damage, I get constrict damage as well? WTF? Why would be "as well"? Why not just say, if you don't do auto damage from natural attack, you do constrict damage (if creature has constrict)?
Somebody break down the last parts of grab. It's...badly worded.
Actually I find the rule fairly clear while your question is pretty confused The rule say that the grab deal no extra damage unless the grappling creature has constrict, but you rant about an extra damage that not exist. Exactly what is your problem?
There are creatures with appendages that do no damage but that can grapple. So the rule specify that they don’t get extra damage but only the damage normally dealt by that appendage.If the creature has the conscription ability it get to deal the constriction damage.
Then I will present you the Behir:
Behir
Melee bite +15 (2d6+9 plus grab)
Special Attacks breath weapon (20-foot line, 7d6 electricity damage, Reflex DC 20 for half, usable every 1d4 rounds), constrict (2d6+9), rake (6 claws +14, 1d4+6), swallow whole (2d8+9 bludgeoning damage, AC 16, 10 hp)
This guy grab you with its bite, so when grappling, if it maintain the grapple:
It get is bite damage by maintaining the grapple, it get extra damage constricting and then he get 6 rake attacks.
BTW: note that unless there are special abilities or effects in play you can’t sue the same appendage twice, so you can’t maintain a grapple, dealing damage with that appendage, and then attack with the same appendage. So the Behir would’n deal his bite damage twuice.
According to the grab description in the Beastiary:
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.I've never really understood what exactly that means.
Does this in essence mean a tiger can just say "I grab and grapple you at -20" pretty much at anytime it hits? If so wouldn't that mean the foe still has to waste their action getting free (easily at -20) effectively robbing them of their attacks which is probably all you would care about if you summoned the tiger? All they could do is a move action which would probably provoke and give the tiger another chance to grapple them.
Am I understanding this correctly?
Normally when you grapple something, no matter how big you are or how small they are, both become grappled. Meaning neither can freely move away, or threaten spaces.
Alternatively, something can elect to just use a single attack/(I say attack instead of limb, since it could be a bite, or a tentacle, but whatever it is that has the grab ability). The target is grappled, but the grappler is not (none of the normal penalties), but the attack is now dedicated to exclusively grappling, and at a -20 penalty. So after that point, say if you were full round attacking, it would be as normal, except that the 'grappling' attack would be used to maintain the grapple at -20, not doing another attack. Or you could say, fly away, and use the standard action to maintain the grapple with the attack.
Note that it doesn't affect the CMD to break the grapple. So getting free isn't easier, though the grappler is pretty likely to lose its grip, unless its CMB is astronomical, which can happen.
So yeah, you can summon tigers and make them try to grapple at -20. They are unlikely to pull off the grapple in the first place...
Maintaining a grapple is a standard action, even if you have taken the -20, the only difference is that you don’t suffer from the grappled condition. So you can’t make a full attack while grappling at -20.
Or with the full attack example you mean the round in which the grapple is established?|
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Pax, assuming it's a full-grown tiger and not an animal companion below level 7:It can use its pounce ability to get a 5 attacks on the charge in the first round. Bite, Claw, Claw, Rake, Rake and can grab on any of the first 3 attacks.Round 2, it maintains the grapple, so Grab deals damage, then it can deal more damage as a grapple option, and can rake twice more so probably doub Grab(Bite damage), Grapple(Bite damage), Rake, Rake.
Holy crap! Pounce means "full attack after a charge." Wow. I gotta pay more attention to "special attacks". Also, based on your reply, the special attacks are in-addition to regular attacks for a claw, claw, bite, rake, rake with three attempts to grap! Wow. Got it. Here's the creature being discussed:
Tiger
XP: 1,200
N Large animal
Init +6; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +8
DEFENSE
AC 14, touch 11, flat-footed 12 (+2 Dex, +3 natural, -1 size)
HP 45 (6d8+18)
Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +3
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee 2 claws +10 (1d8+6 plus grab), bite +9 (2d6+6 plus grab)
Space 10 ft., Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks pounce, rake (2 claws +10, 1d8+6)
STATISTICS
Str 23, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +4; CMB +11 (+15 grapple); CMD 23 (27 vs. trip)
Feats Improved Initiative, Skill Focus (Perception), Weapon Focus (claw)
Skills Acrobatics +10, Perception +8, Stealth +7, Swim +11
Racial Modifiers +4 Acrobatics, +4 Stealth (+8 in tall grass)
ECOLOGY
Environment any forests
Organization solitary or pair
Treasure none
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What leave me a bit uncertain is:
Rake (Ex) A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature's description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
Format: rake (2 claws +8, 1d4+2); Location: Special Attacks.
This seem to assume that the raking creature is the one that initiated or control the grapple, not the one that is grappled. So a grappling creature will apply its holding appendage damage plus its rake/constriction damage, while a grappled creature will be capable to use a full attack.
I find it reasonable as the function of the grapple seem to be to allow you something similar or better than your normal attack routine, but not a full attack plus your rake/constriction ability if you are the grappled target.
The problem is that both creatures have the grappled condition.
So there is a dissonance between the plain English rule and the specific terminology of the game.
Any comment on this interpretation of the rules?
Alright my understanding again:
Rake: Rake can be conducted under two conditions.
First: during a Pounce attack (see pounce rules).
Second: If you began the round grappling and are continuing to grapple. (The order this occurs is a source of a problem)
Lets expand upon the second: You begin the round grappling. This is not in question. But to be considered grappling after that moment you MUST maintain the grapple at the start of your turn before any other actions. Thus, a rake cannot occur before you maintain since it also requires that you be currently grappling. Failure to maintain = failure to rake.
The order should be: Maintain -> Auto-damage, rake attacks.
Grab: Can you continue to make attacks after you have successfully grappled someone?
The rules do not state otherwise. There are no actions required thus I would state that the following occurs during a pounce-charge:
Bite (successful grab) -> Claw -> Claw -> Rake -> Rake
Third issue:
Constrict. I previously believed that when a creature maintained a grapple and had constrict they would do the standard auto-damage and then constrict the target.
The wording in grab is confusing in that it seems to indicate that if the creature does not constrict THEN it gets the autodamage.
However the constrict section specifically states that the additional damage (autodamage) for maintaining applies in addition to the constrict damage. Very confusing.
- Gauss
Tiger can
Round 1)
Charge & Pounce
Bite
Claw
Claw
Grab
No rakes because it doesn't get Rake on the turn it initiates a grapple
Round 2) assuming grabbed
Maintain Grapple (standard), deal damage (or maybe drag the opponent away using the move option)
Rake
Rake
or drop its foe
Full round attack
Bite
Claw
Claw
I'm inclined to read that it has to maintain the grapple in some fashion to count as 'already grappling.' raking then dropping and full round attacking smacks of nonsensical rule lawyering.
Maintaining a grapple is a standard action, even if you have taken the -20, the only difference is that you don’t suffer from the grappled condition. So you can’t make a full attack while grappling at -20.
Or with the full attack example you mean the round in which the grapple is established?
I had originally thought that the -20 method was a way of essentially making the grapple like a swap out attack (like swapping out to trip, or disarm) or possibly even a free action to maintain, with the cost being you'd lose that 'grappling attack.' So say Kong grapples Damsel with a CMB of +35 or something with one hand, cause he totally got this bag in the bag. His movement and AC are essentially unhindered. Is attacked by airplanes, can swing and bite at the planes with a full round attack, sans the one hand that is being used to hold the lady.
But I'm not sure. But going by strictest RAW, the -20 version would only net you not taking a penalty to your AC, and you'd still threaten spaces. If you moved away (with a move action) or anything like that you'd just... lose the grapple. You'd have to use a grapple action to move another creature. So Kong, even massive, holding a lady in one hand, would move at an incredible fraction of his normal speed... seems weird.
Sekret_One: Do you have a rule that you can show that prevents a rake on the turn it initiates grapple but was also pouncing? Pounce specifically states it DOES get rake during a charge.
- Gauss
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Alright my understanding again:
Rake: Rake can be conducted under two conditions.
First: during a Pounce attack (see pounce rules).
Second: If you began the round grappling and are continuing to grapple. (The order this occurs is a source of a problem)Lets expand upon the second: You begin the round grappling. This is not in question. But to be considered grappling after that moment you MUST maintain the grapple at the start of your turn before any other actions. Thus, a rake cannot occur before you maintain since it also requires that you be currently grappling. Failure to maintain = failure to rake.
The order should be: Maintain -> Auto-damage, rake attacks.Grab: Can you continue to make attacks after you have successfully grappled someone?
The rules do not state otherwise. There are no actions required thus I would state that the following occurs during a pounce-charge:
Bite (successful grab) -> Claw -> Claw -> Rake -> RakeThird issue:
Constrict. I previously believed that when a creature maintained a grapple and had constrict they would do the standard auto-damage and then constrict the target.
The wording in grab is confusing in that it seems to indicate that if the creature does not constrict THEN it gets the autodamage.
However the constrict section specifically states that the additional damage (autodamage) for maintaining applies in addition to the constrict damage. Very confusing.- Gauss
Maintaining a grapple is a standard action, so you can't make any attack actions (unless they have specific rules like constrict and rake).
"If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold."
Third issue: "If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text)."
AFAIK (I am not English native) "as well" mean "in addition to (something in the preceding paragraph)", so this text could be read:
If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text) in addition to the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold.
Diego Rossi:
I did not state that you could make an attack action in the second (and subsequent rounds of grapple). I said you do autodamage and rake as part of the maintain.
However, in the first round there is no maintain check. Thus, your attacks continue even if you have successfully grabbed someone.
- Gauss
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Ok, if you mean "in the round in which you pounced you can make a bite, 2 claw, 2 rake attacks and up to 3 grapple attack, and a successful grapple don't stop your attack routine", I fully agree.
And I agree that it is an awkward phrase. :)
Most of the confusion is around the use of the grappling word, as sometime it refer to the action of starting a grapple, something to the action to maintain a grapple.