power-gaming, shopping and crafting cultureWere all part of 3.5e, which you confess loyalty to. Pun-pun is a 3.5 thing. Ur-priest and Abjurant Cheesecake are 3.5 things. Divine Metamagic Persist Spell with Nightsticks was a 3.5 thing. Book of Nine Swords was a 3.5 thing. CharOp boards with builds that would make you cry at night is a 3.5 thing. Frenzied Berserker was a 3.5 thing. Gating solars was a 3.5 thing.
Stop saying that 3.5 was a system devoid of powergaming opportunities and Pathfinder became a gamebreaker paradise. It's simply a not-truth.
Did you ever check out the ur-priest and run one? They were truly fascinating. They had a chunk of levels where you really dropped behind in oompf, lost your clerical powers just to get in and start spell progression again, and after levels of suffering, then a sudden power jump later with no staying power.
Not sure what an abjurant cheesecake is, but I did make a dispel monkey once.
A frenzied berserker was in a game I ran. He didn't do very well. Seemed extremely powerful on paper (the player thought so too), but got killed partly by the party in defence, partly by the lizardmen enemies.
I have not said 3.5 was a system devoid of powergaming opportunities. Change has been a long time coming and the sings have been there, signs in the skies of fantasy! Blood moons of red cheese, falling upon the young and old gamer alike, converting some, causing hideous convulsions and cries of pain in others.
Baalbamoth the wise seer is mocked, but this man sees. The crunchy number wars of powergaming hath come home, and it is all gms who must answer the door and deal with this visitor.
Also relax Gorb the bag, you'll rip your seams.
First on page 16. Woot!
"Comparing a 3.5 druid and a PF drid is not even a real comparison", because you don't want to acknowledge more abilities and powers. Why is that wraithstrike?
I'm not very good at hi falutin' rules debates, but I presume that the point is that PF characters face PF encounters, not 3.5 encounters. You can't meaningfully line up the two characters side by side to determine which is overpowered - the context is essential.
You can't compare two version of a class to see which one has more abilities, bonuses and a greater level of power distancing them from commoners of the world.
Too much. It is possible to have too much! The cheese waves tsunami cometh!
Level 20 wizard using the 3.5 polymorph rules. In 3.5 you could get the special qualities of a creature since actually became the creature in 3.5. The creature was called a Dire Tortoise. It got a surprise round even if you knew it was there. It is in the Sandstorm book.
The creature was only 14 HD so you did not even have to be level 20 to get access to it.
f you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level.
I use my standard action to cast Gate or even worse to cast timestop, and use several gates.
Even if you want to drop below level 20 calling in powerful outsider with a standard action is no small thing.
You can't compare two version of a class to see which one has more abilities, bonuses and a greater level of power distancing them from commoners of the world.
Too much. It is possible to have too much! The cheese waves tsunami cometh!
It seems a bit funny to me to choose 3.5 if avoiding power gaming is so important to you. You should play DCC from goodman games, it might be right up your alley.
power-gaming, shopping and crafting cultureWere all part of 3.5e, which you confess loyalty to. Pun-pun is a 3.5 thing. Ur-priest and Abjurant Cheesecake are 3.5 things. Divine Metamagic Persist Spell with Nightsticks was a 3.5 thing. Book of Nine Swords was a 3.5 thing. CharOp boards with builds that would make you cry at night is a 3.5 thing. Frenzied Berserker was a 3.5 thing. Gating solars was a 3.5 thing.
Stop saying that 3.5 was a system devoid of powergaming opportunities and Pathfinder became a gamebreaker paradise. It's simply a not-truth.
Did you ever check out the ur-priest and run one? They were truly fascinating. They had a chunk of levels where you really dropped behind in oompf, lost your clerical powers just to get in and start spell progression again, and after levels of suffering, then a sudden power jump later with no staying power.
Not sure what an abjurant cheesecake is, but I did make a dispel monkey once.
A frenzied berserker was in a game I ran. He didn't do very well. Seemed extremely powerful on paper (the player thought so too), but got killed partly by the party in defence, partly by the lizardmen enemies.
I have not said 3.5 was a system devoid of powergaming opportunities. Change has been a long time coming and the sings have been there, signs in the skies of fantasy! Blood moons of red cheese, falling upon the young and old gamer alike, converting some, causing hideous convulsions and cries of pain in others.
Baalbamoth the wise seer is mocked, but this man sees. The crunchy number wars of powergaming hath come home, and it is all gms who must answer the door and deal with this visitor.
Also relax Gorb the bag, you'll rip your seams.
First on page 16. Woot!
Your earlier post implied that 3.5 made the powergaming harder, when in fact it did not. That is Gorby's point. That is why I made the post I did. You did mention the caster's increase in HD, among other things so I am sure that you were comparing 3.5 to PF. The things I could do in 3.5 made it a lot easier to give GM's a hard time if I were to try.
edit:Abjurant cheesecake is most likely referring to the Abjurant Champion. Full BAB and Full spellcasting, all the way, especially if you took the battle sorcerer from Unearthed Arcana. It is almost like they were made for each other.
16 pages and no proof that PF is an OP system. Heck I don't even see one build, which is probably possible, much less any proof of system issues.
Dungeon crawl sounds great. Cheers.
3.5 had power gaming, power gaming has been more standardised and encouraged by pathfinder. The increase in abilities and the level of magic, the filling of all the slots and the encouragement of this to keep up with the monsters is just the tip of the ice-berg. Baal is onto something but quickly out jump people insisting he isn't and it has always been this bad. A curious argument.
Checked out the tortoise. Cool beastie. If you use your standard to turn into a tortoise, you are into initiative, and have rolled like everyone else to determine when you go, and when it got to your initiative, which won't be first without investment, you then change and looks like you get a surprise (course you just burned actions from an already existing round, so this gets vague). So you didn't just win initiative with no contest. Your wizard is now a giant tortoise, with a dex of 6 and no fingers or hands, how will you use this burst of speed to cast spells? You go from spellcaster into tough beast that acts quickly. Cool. OP? No.
Strike, you will not see what you refuse to see. You are quite biased, whereas Baal and I are capable of seeing flaws in pathfinder and what came before it. The problems began a while ago, in the time of the birth of the munchkin, the long-long-ago.
Think of it like this, with pathfinder, power-gaming is even more supported then ever.
It took me some years to see it, but the path of pf is clear and quite unfortunate.
no, it was some way of adding acid damage to the SG, I can find it but does not really change anyting, that CL20 staff costs 15k, but cost wasnt really the issue. the issue was 10th lev
I can't help but feel that you're not really sure what you read and are exaggerating, because looking through quite a few misc things and metamagics I'm not really seeing it.
Dungeon crawl sounds great. Cheers.
3.5 had power gaming, power gaming has been more standardised and encouraged by pathfinder. The increase in abilities and the level of magic, the filling of all the slots and the encouragement of this to keep up with the monsters is just the tip of the ice-berg. Baal is onto something but quickly out jump people insisting he isn't and it has always been this bad. A curious argument.
Checked out the tortoise. Cool beastie. If you use your standard to turn into a tortoise, you are into initiative, and have rolled like everyone else to determine when you go, and when it got to your initiative, which won't be first without investment, you then change and looks like you get a surprise (course you just burned actions from an already existing round, so this gets vague). So you didn't just win initiative with no contest. Your wizard is now a giant tortoise, with a dex of 6 and no fingers or hands, how will you use this burst of speed to cast spells? You go from spellcaster into tough beast that acts quickly. Cool. OP? No.
3.5 Loyalist you are not even trying. Do you really think there is no solution to what you just wrote? I will give you a chance to figure it out. It is not hard. The answer is in the core rule book aka PHB.
What do you mean by increase in abilities?
Strike, you will not see what you refuse to see. You are quite biased, whereas Baal and I are capable of seeing flaws in pathfinder and what came before it. The problems began a while ago, in the time of the birth of the munchkin, the long-long-ago.
I see flaws, and I see potential flaws. What I don't do is point to potential flaws and count them as actual flaws. In short both of you are threorycrafting. If either of you were correct then your would have more support, and you would come up with actual problems.
Just to be clear "actual problems" are things that will trouble most games, not just a small percentage of them.
Think of it like this, with pathfinder, power-gaming is even more supported then ever.
It took me some years to see it, but the path of pf is clear and quite unfortunate.
Then enlighten us with actual examples, and I don't mean issues that only disrupt your style of play, but things that are issues across the board.
no, it was some way of adding acid damage to the SG, I can find it but does not really change anyting, that CL20 staff costs 15k, but cost wasnt really the issue. the issue was 10th levI can't help but feel that you're not really sure what you read and are exaggerating, because looking through quite a few misc things and metamagics I'm not really seeing it.
I am beginning to think the build does not even exist.
ROTFL, omg...
Its kinda funny wraith you seemed kina like a level headed guy a while back there when you were telling me that; sure there were OP builds but nothing that needed eratta, I was worried the iceman persona was going to calmly wipe me out, but your sorta loosing that calm demeanor now, shaking your fist at the heavens NOTHING IN PATHFINDER IS OP!!!
come on man, why dont you show me a build you know is OP....
Loyalist- everytime PF vs D&D comes up I cant help but to think of what the chinese premere said on the tonight show... Jay Lenno asks him "do you think western culture and influence will forever change the culture of China?" The premere says "western culture has influenced China, but China was here 4,000 years before America, and it will be here 4,000 years after..."
go ask somebody on the street "have you ever played pathfinder" and I think the common answer will be "whats that?" try the same with D&D and at least they will know what D&D is. dont get me wrong, 4.0 litterally got me to quit gaming for a long time, but the ancient heros are awaking from their slumber and crawling out of the mountians to take up arms... the grognardian hordes are rising...
Preach it brother!
no, it was some way of adding acid damage to the SG, I can find it but does not really change anyting, that CL20 staff costs 15k, but cost wasnt really the issue. the issue was 10th lev, throwing 20d6, 10x a day, then using pearls and throwing more, with the only way to really counter it being to throw more mooks at em, run more encounters per session till they were sucking arcana. IE waste the other players time to make a challenge for one player assuming the added encounters didnt get them killed as well especially once his pearls ran out.
PS- I wasnt part of the 3.5, think I played two games before college dropped me out of gaming, I was a 2.0 loyalist! (though I've never seen such broken grappling/HTH rules ever or since...)
Once again, grappling starts to fall off the board around level 10 unless your GM is throwing humanoid monsters at you or just flat out ignoring the rules, and that is with the really good grapple builds.
If you mean broken(the rules are not perfectly clear) then you might have a point, but if you mean grappling allows you to overpower monsters then I disagree.
Loyalist- everytime PF vs D&D comes up I cant help but to think of what the chinese premere said on the tonight show... Jay Lenno asks him "do you think western culture and influence will forever change the culture of China?" The premere says "western culture has influenced China, but China was here 4,000 years before America, and it will be here 4,000 years after..."
go ask somebody on the street "have you ever played pathfinder" and I think the common answer will be "whats that?" try the same with D&D and at least they will know what D&D is. dont get me wrong, 4.0 litterally got me to quit gaming for a long time, but the ancient heros are awaking from their slumber and crawling out of the mountians to take up arms... the grognardian hordes are rising...
The China quote was just stupid on many levels (not your fault of course, you didn't originate it), but how are you comparing a brand that's been around for years that's essentially 4 (5 if you count 3.5, and 6 if you count the coming 5e) completely different games under the same heading vs a new spin off system in terms of brand awareness? Even if it is more well known (though the same people you ask won't know how many different games fall under the same name there are) what does it have to go with anything?
Wraith, that was a good point. Combat maneuvers actually got made weaker in pf, deliberately. Not what I am mainly talking about, but a point nonetheless.
Preach it brother!ROTFL, omg...
Its kinda funny wraith you seemed kina like a level headed guy a while back there when you were telling me that; sure there were OP builds but nothing that needed eratta, I was worried the iceman persona was going to calmly wipe me out, but your sorta loosing that calm demeanor now, shaking your fist at the heavens NOTHING IN PATHFINDER IS OP!!!
come on man, why dont you show me a build you know is OP....
Loyalist- everytime PF vs D&D comes up I cant help but to think of what the chinese premere said on the tonight show... Jay Lenno asks him "do you think western culture and influence will forever change the culture of China?" The premere says "western culture has influenced China, but China was here 4,000 years before America, and it will be here 4,000 years after..."
go ask somebody on the street "have you ever played pathfinder" and I think the common answer will be "whats that?" try the same with D&D and at least they will know what D&D is. dont get me wrong, 4.0 litterally got me to quit gaming for a long time, but the ancient heros are awaking from their slumber and crawling out of the mountians to take up arms... the grognardian hordes are rising...
That is clearly not what is going on. I specifically stated that I am sure it is possible to make an OP build in PF. I said it more than once. :)
However being able to make one OP build does not mean the entire system is in error, which is what it seems like you two are saying.
edit:Do I have to stay online all day to make sure my words are not taken out of context?
3.5 Loyalist did you figure out how to cast spells without hands yet?
ROTFL, omg...
Its kinda funny wraith you seemed kina like a level headed guy a while back there when you were telling me that; sure there were OP builds but nothing that needed eratta, I was worried the iceman persona was going to calmly wipe me out, but your sorta loosing that calm demeanor now, shaking your fist at the heavens NOTHING IN PATHFINDER IS OP!!!
come on man, why dont you show me a build you know is OP....
I don't know of any OP builds. Now I could probably build one with a very loose interpretation of the rules, but without a GM being lenient the build would probably be ruled not rules-legal.
I knew of some in 3.5, but they are not possible in PF. The "infinite" builds, as an example would allows you to do X an infinite amount of times.
There was either an infinite attack build or an infinite damage build that can not be replicated in PF as a more exact example.
I don't try to make such builds, I just like to challenge them, which is probably why I don't have one for you. If you find one I am game to see if I can handle it in a normal game though.
wraith- wow, I was talking about the grappling rules in 2.0 D&D, every skill level you put into punch got you a +1 to hit. then there was the origional wacky table system they had for a while.
but while were there... where is it that it says everything you run into at 20th level has a DR4+? Do all NPC's of that level get DR4? Is that even a fact? or were you just throwing that in there to get the sick sick damage of that build down from 400 pts to 200 pts? I really dont know PF, but it seems like that got pulled out of some dark place and it smells funny.
Chaos- just saying PF is not D&D or even D&D 3.75, when a new D&D comes out there is going to be an exodus. Heck its not even out yet and geek dad from wired is already writing articles about it. Thats where I first heard about OSR and thats what got me back into gaming...
PS- that was a post by Bloodytroll, saying something like "have you seen Treantmonk's Staff Magus write up?" then hit the numbers... I think it was under that "your thoughts on the magus" thread but not sure... I looked all over for a treantmonk magus but couldent find it.
Baal at higher levels(past level 10) DR is every common. So is true seeing, blindsight, blindsense, tremor sense, spell resistance, and a lot of other things.
Is it a rule that it must happen? No.
Is it rare for it to not happen? Yes.
In short a monster without DR at that level is a corner case.
Chaos- just saying PF is not D&D or even D&D 3.75, when a new D&D comes out there is going to be an exodus. Heck its not even out yet and geek dad from wired is already writing articles about it. Thats where I first heard about OSR and thats what got me back into gaming...
Yes, Pathfinder is not an official DnD release, and no, its not surprising that people who are into tabletop RPGs have heard that they are making a new edition. Whether or not people go to it or actually stay is another matter entirely, as you should know because of all the edition in-fighting.
Also looked through the "your thoughts on the magus" thread and saw nothing about the kind of build you were talking about that pulled those numbers 10 times a day consistently.
wraith- wow, I was talking about the grappling rules in 2.0 D&D, every skill level you put into punch got you a +1 to hit. then there was the origional wacky table system they had for a while.
but while were there... where is it that it says everything you run into at 20th level has a DR4+? Do all NPC's of that level get DR4? Is that even a fact? or were you just throwing that in there to get the sick sick damage of that build down from 400 pts to 200 pts? I really dont know PF, but it seems like that got pulled out of some dark place and it smells funny.
Chaos- just saying PF is not D&D or even D&D 3.75, when a new D&D comes out there is going to be an exodus. Heck its not even out yet and geek dad from wired is already writing articles about it. Thats where I first heard about OSR and thats what got me back into gaming...
PS- that was a post by Bloodytroll, saying something like "have you seen Treantmonk's Staff Magus write up?" then hit the numbers... I think it was under that "your thoughts on the magus" thread but not sure... I looked all over for a treantmonk magus but couldent find it.
I guess you mean BlackBloodTroll. I will searched his post, but I could not find it. I did send him a PM though, asking for the link. When he replies I will be sure to respond to that build.
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Could we just agree that the OP will never change his mind on a subject he doesn't fully comprehend ; then get back to Grod, kobolds and awesome characters ?
http://xkcd.com/386/
Considering how bad 4th edition is, I don't see 5th being much better.
And to be honest, I don't judge how much I like something by how many other people like it, so if a mass exodus of players went to 5th and stopped playing PF... okay? So? And?
My favourite band is Anaal Nathrakh, and I'd be amazed if a single other person on this forum was a fan.
I do not filter my taste through that of others to determine if it's "the right thing to like."
I switched to PF because it was 3.5 cleaned up into a better package, not because it was popular.
And I think I will start an "Ask Grod" thread on the advice forums when I'm at work on Monday. I usually avoid forums while at home.
And I think I will start an "Ask Grod" thread on the advice forums when I'm at work on Monday. I usually avoid forums while at home.
You could make a flowchart. I'd imagine it starts at "did you hit it with an axe" with "no" leading to "intimidate" which leads to looping back to the opening asking about the axe or "great success". Selecting yes from the beginning square would just drop you right into "great success".
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Not sure what an abjurant cheesecake is, but I did make a dispel monkey once.
Dear Trevour, if thou know not what Abjurant Cheescake stands for, then thou have nary an idea about 3.5 optimization and character builds! Truly, 'tis like a scholar of history presenting a blank face and a confused stare when inquired about the Battle of Stalingrad. Oh how have the mighty fallen, I'm on the verge of fainting, where are my refreshing salts?
Henceforth I consider myself victorious in this argument, and your miserable squabbling left far behind in dust. Have heart dear wise seer, for one day you shall have thine comeuppance!
It is indeed refreshing to see a gentleman of such refinement amongst the usual rabble.
humm.... thats kinda weird, I mean most NPCs you fight arent goin to have it right? neither are the PCs... for that matter... what kind of damage is a tripper build going to be doing to something with a DC of 4, or an rapid shot archer... probably a lot less than that gunsummoner... so though the build is totally friggin OP for anything without DR and its totally OP against most villian NPCs, and it out performs most other ranged non-spell using characters in the amt of damage it can do to a creature with DR.... that also does not take into consideration all the OP your going to be doing before level 10... so with all of that you still dont consider that build OP?
K might be off for a while, actually have to do an hour or two of work at my job. I may be on later but not sure.
been fun...
I am assuming DC=DR. DR will be above 10 at level 20. With that said level 20 is almost never reached is a bad comparison even if I did not come up with the DR idea. Level 10 is more realistic.
How much damage a tripper does at level 20 depends on the build. More than likely he won't be tripping anything due to the high CMD though.
As I said you can't ignore DR because it is a corner case to find a monster that does not have it.
If the monster does not have DR then the paladin, barbarian, or fighter is going to kill it in one round. In short it is dead anyway.
It is not OP against most villians. It is can't even 1-round stock monsters so I don't know why you keep saying it is OP. If the GM builds his own NPC's then he should have no trouble dealing with this build, so even if a GM does not use the creatures in the book, the build should not give him trouble.
It also does not out perform melee characters. They can bypass DR or do so much damage that they kill it in the same amount of time as the gun-summoner.
Not sure what an abjurant cheesecake is, but I did make a dispel monkey once.Dear Trevour, if thou know not what Abjurant Cheescake stands for, then thou have nary an idea about 3.5 optimization and character builds! Truly, 'tis like a scholar of history presenting a blank face and a confused stare when inquired about the Battle of Stalingrad. Oh how have the mighty fallen, I'm on the verge of fainting, where are my refreshing salts?
Henceforth I consider myself victorious in this argument, and your miserable squabbling left far behind in dust. Have heart dear wise seer, for one day you shall have thine comeuppance!
This was low on the level of 3.5 cheese that was common on the boards. If someone had knowledge(cheese) one should only need to make a DC 10 knowledge check to know about this one.
In short I have to agree with Gorby.
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16 pages and no proof that PF is an OP system. Heck I don't even see one build, which is probably possible, much less any proof of system issues.
The issue is 49% GM permissiveness, 49% poor rule reading, and 2%...umm...love?
I think the GM has to know the table and then run the table so the most fun can be had by all. If you trust your GM, RAWyering doesn't happen as much, loophole hunting is controlled, and generaly everyone is happier.
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Were all part of 3.5e, which you confess loyalty to. Pun-pun is a 3.5 thing. Ur-priest and Abjurant Cheesecake are 3.5 things. Divine Metamagic Persist Spell with Nightsticks was a 3.5 thing. Book of Nine Swords was a 3.5 thing. CharOp boards with builds that would make you cry at night is a 3.5 thing. Frenzied Berserker was a 3.5 thing. Gating solars was a 3.5 thing.Stop saying that 3.5 was a system devoid of powergaming opportunities and Pathfinder became a gamebreaker paradise. It's simply a not-truth.
One of the few times Gorbacz and myself are in complete 1000% agreement. Powergaming was as prevalent in 3.5 as it is under PF. If anything I'm finding that Paizo is doing a better job of trying to reduce powergaming. Sometimes al ittle too much yet that is a topic for another discussion.
This thread imo is perfect example imo of the OP coming on to these boards wanting to get feedback except already has his mind set on the topic and it won't be changed. Beyond validation why even post a thread if no matter what anyone says nothing will change the mond of the OP. Might as well go on rpg.net and other rpg forums and post a similar thread and hope the laws of avergaes will eventually work in his favor.
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I'll add my voice to Gorbacz and memorax in that 3.5 was easier to cheese than PF.
I have banned 3.5 materials for balancing purposes. That alone should give a hint as to where the problem lies.
Not to say that PF classes are not inherently strong. They are, very much so. Some even stronger than ever before. And that strength is much of the reason why the stronger magical items, feats and prestige classes needed to go in my game.
If anything, I'd say that PF is by far the more balanced game, as all classes are inherently pretty good now (not baiting for another rogue/monk/thisorthat still sucks! "debate"). A party is going to be rather balanced, unless your idea of balance is "who will win in a fight". A cooperative party-based game is not a place where the ability to annihilate better than everyone else should determine the validity of a character.
As an anecdote: The bard I currently play is a long shot from being able to match the sorcerer or the magus in destructive capability, with his +1 longsword and his masterwork shortbow. But he simply owns their asses in every field where swords and spells are not involved, and more important: He is half the reason everyone does well in the first place.
So in a way, my bard TECHNICALLY does the most damage. With good hope and inspire courage, every hit does +4 damage, which is "his" damage. Every hit that hits by a margin of less than 4 is his handiwork. Every save failed by 1 or 2 on the side of the enemy after he uses Dirge of Doom worked thanks to him.
TL;DR: Look at the bigger picture, and you might reconsider what you consider OP
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Wraithstrike is right. For such a 3.5 loyalist, 3.5 Loyalist doesn't seem to know much about 3.5. Without ever going outside of the 3.5 SRD, a core wizard can replicate every act of god in the Bible, including the creation of the entire universe and all living creatures in it, using a god-powered staff to part an ocean, and summon the entire host of heaven to his bidding. And he can do so by about 13th level if he's trying (17th level if he's not taking any shortcuts).
3.5 polymorph spells allowed you to take on the physical statistics and all Ex abilities of a creature that you turned into. At 8th level you could transform into a dire bear, gaining a 40 ft. speed, +7 natural armor bonus, 3 attacks, a 31 Strength (pre buffs), +4 to grapple, improved grab, low-light vision, and scent. So when this 8th level druid transforms, he has a +16/+11/+11 to hit, a +14 grapple modifier (which is damn scary because it was just a strength + size check). It also had a brown bear companion with shockingly similar capabilities. It would likely be buffed due to Natural Spell (easily adding another +2 to Strength for a while, or using greater magic fang or barkskin to push raw statistics higher and higher).
At higher levels than this, the druid would be wearing +5 wild dragonscale fullplate and carrying a +5 wild tower shield, providing giving the druid stats more akin to this:
Elder Earth Elemental Form
- Elemental Traits (immunity to sneak attacks, flanking, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, critical hits, darkvision 60 ft.)
- AC 55 (+20 natural, +13 armor, +9 shield, +5 deflection, +1 insight, -1 Dex, -2 size)
- Damage Reduction 10/- (!!!)
- Strength 33 (unbuffed) with a stupidly huge grapple modifier.
- Earth Glide
- 15 ft. reach
- Attack Routine: +5 Unarmed Strike +30/+30/+25/+20 (1d6+16) plus 2 +5 slams +25 (2d10+10)
Also, they're 9th level casters who can do stuff like Elemental Swarm, and shapechange.
And oh sweet Jesus do you not want them to cast shapechange, because everytime they do, they can take more or less any form they want, and transform into Balors (gaining the Balor's flaming vorpal swords every time they do), or transforming into a Solar and gaining their spellcasting abilities along with regeneration, and all your attacks (natural or otherwise) are treated as both epic and good for bypassing DR. In addition, you get Change shape, damage reduction 15/epic and evil, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, immunity to acid, cold, and petrification, protective aura, regeneration 15, resistance to electricity 10 and fire 10, spell resistance 32, tongues.
As well as the following spell-stuff.
Spell-Like Abilities
At will—aid, animate objects, commune, continual flame, dimensional anchor, greater dispel magic, holy smite (DC 21), imprisonment (DC 26), invisibility (self only), lesser restoration (DC 19), remove curse (DC 20), remove disease (DC 20), remove fear (DC 18), resist energy, summon monster VII, speak with dead (DC 20), waves of fatigue; 3/day—blade barrier (DC 23), earthquake (DC 25), heal (DC 23), mass charm monster (DC 25), permanency, resurrection, waves of exhaustion; 1/day—greater restoration (DC 24), power word blind, power word kill, power word stun, prismatic spray (DC 24), wish. Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
The following abilities are always active on a solar’s person, as the spells (caster level 20th)detect evil, detect snares and pits, discern lies (DC 21), see invisibility, true seeing. They can be dispelled, but the solar can reactivate them as a free action.
SpellsSolars can cast divine spells as 20th-level clerics. A solar has access to two of the following domains: Air, Destruction, Good, Law, or War (plus any others from its deity). The save DCs are Wisdom-based.
Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/8/8/8/7/7/6/6/5/5; save DC 17 + spell level)0—create water, detect magic, guidance (2), resistance (2); 1st—bless (2), cause fear, divine favor (2), entropic shield, obscuring mist*, shield of faith; 2nd—align weapon, bear’s endurance (2), bull’s strength (2), consecrate, eagle’s splendor, spiritual weapon*; 3rd—daylight, invisibility purge, magic circle against evil, magic vestment*, prayer (2), protection from energy, wind wall; 4th—death ward (2), dismissal (2), divine power*, neutralize poison (2); 5th—break enchantment, control winds*, dispel evil, plane shift, righteous might (2), symbol of sleep; 6th—banishment, chain lightning*, heroes’ feast, mass cure moderate wounds, undeath to death, word of recall; 7th—control weather*, destruction, dictum, ethereal jaunt, holy word, regenerate; 8th—fire storm, holy aura, mass cure critical wounds (2), whirlwind*; 9th— etherealness, elemental swarm (air)*, mass heal, miracle, storm of vengeance.
*Domain spell. Domains: Air and War.
Did I mention that it also gives you base ability scores of 28, 20, 20, before magic items (which you can wear) and inherent bonuses (which apply to the new form)? That means you'll have Str 34, Dex 26, Con 26, at least. And you can wield weapons and armor, and make slam attacks. Oh yeah, and a 50 ft. base speed and 150 ft. fly (good) speed, and a 10 ft. reach. This also allows you to cast wish as a spell-like ability and produce a caster level 1,000,000,000 Intelligent staff those sole purpose is to serve your will absolute, that casts every spell ever, and is an epic weapon, with a multitude of abilities, and can chain-cast time stop as needed, part the oceans, with an Ego score so powerful that anyone other than you who picks it up will instantly be the staff's thrall in service to your divine will.
That's CORE
Shall I go on?
3.5 Loyalist, most of the things I could do in 3.5, can not be done in PF, but anything I can do in PF can be replicated or surpassed in 3.5. In 3.5 a player had a commoner taking on CR 10 encounters. It is not even close.
Now Baal if you don't know the system well then why try to argue what is or is not balanced?* You don't like PF all that much. I get it, but there is difference between the system having issues, and it not fitting your preferred style of play.
*In short what I am saying is that because you don't know the system that well you can't really come up with a precise argument. You did not know about DR, and being relatively new I did not expect you to. You also don't realize that no the summoner you linked to is not impressive. At best I might have to change some feats or spells out. That is hardly as time consuming as you think it would be. At the most it is 5 minutes of work for me, and if I am building my own NPC's then somebody better help that summoner. I will just remove him from the battlefield, gate in ______ to handle him when he gets back. If I had 3.5 gate it would be worse.
PS:That was a long "in short". :)
PS2:If that 20d6+40 build is found I will be answering that also. :)
3.5 Loyalist did you figure out how to cast spells without hands yet?
Tortoises also don't have humanoid voices or the capacity to speak. They can grunt. So yeah, become the giant tortoise if you want, you become a huge predator, but it is not the OP choice you think it is. It is not the same as wild shape with casting options taken.
Ashiel adds more, mostly on the druid. Druid's don't get tower shield proficiency and can only use wooden non-tower shields. If that armour or shield is at all metal, spellcasting is lost for 24 hours. I've heard the dragon armour for druids claim before. It gets us a bit off topic, but there is a debate here on what they can and can't use (an ironwood and dragonscale armour with no metal of any kind on buckles or metal or chain in the harness, might work, the rules on metals and what they can use gets forgotten by power gamers).
Ashiel, be less condescending about the rules, if you intend to use them.
Shapechange and level 20 wizards with 9th level spells (like shapechange, gate, time stop) are paraded, but that is the end game, the ultimate point, players are near gods and this takes us away from comparing the classes below such high outliers. 3.5 is powergaming because of the potential of level 9 spells? By then the game lets you do practically whatever you want if you are a spellcaster. The fantasy becomes made by the ultimate spellcaster.
Mmm, the powergaming is in the systems, it is there to be taken if you wish but the crucial point is how close do we as players and as dms go towards it? Do we take comfort in going closer to the crunch? Choosing more and quicker growth, less weaknesses and more cluttered tables.
Ashiel is probably preparing a long post as you read this, a counter to something or other, but I've got a real question. Do we want more cheese and more crunch? Because pathfinder has gone in that direction. The numbers are higher than ever and some classes get given far more than others. I miss the less cluttered level tables, high customisation, but with relatively simple basic level by level progression and not that much given.
3.5 Loyalist, most of the things I could do in 3.5, can not be done in PF, but anything I can do in PF can be replicated or surpassed in 3.5. In 3.5 a player had a commoner taking on CR 10 encounters. It is not even close.
Now Baal if you don't know the system well then why try to argue what is or is not balanced?* You don't like PF all that much. I get it, but there is difference between the system having issues, and it not fitting your preferred style of play.
*In short what I am saying is that because you don't know the system that well you can't really come up with a precise argument. You did not know about DR, and being relatively new I did not expect you to. You also don't realize that no the summoner you linked to is not impressive. At best I might have to change some feats or spells out. That is hardly as time consuming as you think it would be. At the most it is 5 minutes of work for me, and if I am building my own NPC's then somebody better help that summoner. I will just remove him from the battlefield, gate in ______ to handle him when he gets back. If I had 3.5 gate it would be worse.
PS:That was a long "in short". :)
PS2:If that 20d6+40 build is found I will be answering that also. :)
I am not sure what the level 10 commoner had that allowed them to do well against CR 10s. Care to elaborate, because they don't get much as a level 10.
Not sure what an abjurant cheesecake is, but I did make a dispel monkey once.Dear Trevour, if thou know not what Abjurant Cheescake stands for, then thou have nary an idea about 3.5 optimization and character builds! Truly, 'tis like a scholar of history presenting a blank face and a confused stare when inquired about the Battle of Stalingrad. Oh how have the mighty fallen, I'm on the verge of fainting, where are my refreshing salts?
Henceforth I consider myself victorious in this argument, and your miserable squabbling left far behind in dust. Have heart dear wise seer, for one day you shall have thine comeuppance!
Your insults have been flagged. You also got my name wrong.
Were all part of 3.5e, which you confess loyalty to. Pun-pun is a 3.5 thing. Ur-priest and Abjurant Cheesecake are 3.5 things. Divine Metamagic Persist Spell with Nightsticks was a 3.5 thing. Book of Nine Swords was a 3.5 thing. CharOp boards with builds that would make you cry at night is a 3.5 thing. Frenzied Berserker was a 3.5 thing. Gating solars was a 3.5 thing.Stop saying that 3.5 was a system devoid of powergaming opportunities and Pathfinder became a gamebreaker paradise. It's simply a not-truth.
One of the few times Gorbacz and myself are in complete 1000% agreement. Powergaming was as prevalent in 3.5 as it is under PF. If anything I'm finding that Paizo is doing a better job of trying to reduce powergaming. Sometimes al ittle too much yet that is a topic for another discussion.
This thread imo is perfect example imo of the OP coming on to these boards wanting to get feedback except already has his mind set on the topic and it won't be changed. Beyond validation why even post a thread if no matter what anyone says nothing will change the mond of the OP. Might as well go on rpg.net and other rpg forums and post a similar thread and hope the laws of avergaes will eventually work in his favor.
How are they reducing powergaming?
3.5 Loyalist did you figure out how to cast spells without hands yet?Tortoises also don't have humanoid voices or the capacity to speak. They can grunt. So yeah, become the giant tortoise if you want, you become a huge predator, but it is not the OP choice you think it is. It is not the same as wild shape with casting options taken.
Is that a yes or a no?
Whether tortoises can speak? Or are you making assumptions again?