As per the create a zombie section in the beastiary, a zombie gets slam attacks. But does a creature without arms (or appendages not used to support itself upright) still get slam or does it just keep its ordinary pre-zombie natural attack?
As per the create a zombie section in the beastiary, a zombie gets slam attacks. But does a creature without arms (or appendages not used to support itself upright) still get slam or does it just keep its ordinary pre-zombie natural attack?
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If it's a zombie labrador retriever, it should definitely get a tail-slam attack....
As per the create a zombie section in the beastiary, a zombie gets slam attacks. But does a creature without arms (or appendages not used to support itself upright) still get slam or does it just keep its ordinary pre-zombie natural attack?
It can simply slam you with its body. Or its pretty useless face. My party recently encountered a pair of fast-zombie grizzly bears (2 claws, 1 bite, 2 slams). It was bad. XD
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As per the create a zombie section in the beastiary, a zombie gets slam attacks. But does a creature without arms (or appendages not used to support itself upright) still get slam or does it just keep its ordinary pre-zombie natural attack?
Yes, it gets a slam attack:
"Attacks: A zombie retains all the natural weapons, manufactured weapon attacks, and weapon proficiencies of the base creature. It also gains a slam attack that deals damage based on the zombie's size, but as if it were one size category larger than its actual size (see Natural Attacks)."
My party recently encountered a pair of fast-zombie grizzly bears (2 claws, 1 bite, 2 slams). It was bad. XD
I need to start some sort of anti-fast zombie movement. At first they seemed like a cool addition, but it seems like the classic zombie is never used anymore.
I miss the relentless hordes of Romero-style shamblers. :P
Zombies keep their natural attacks AND gain a slam attack.
I was under the impression that they had to pick and choose between the two when making an attack though. In the case of a wolf, it could make a bite OR a slam on a given turn.
Zombies keep their natural attacks AND gain a slam attack.
I was under the impression that they had to pick and choose between the two when making an attack though. In the case of a wolf, it could make a bite OR a slam on a given turn.
The
i think standard zombies aren't used due to the staggard quality where they can either move or attack but not both. Fast zombies don't have the penalty.
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Zombies keep their natural attacks AND gain a slam attack.
I was under the impression that they had to pick and choose between the two when making an attack though. In the case of a wolf, it could make a bite OR a slam on a given turn.
As others have pointed out, standard zombies can't full attack without another resource, but fast zombies don't suffer from that problem.
i think standard zombies aren't used due to the staggard quality where they can either move or attack but not both. Fast zombies don't have the penalty.
Exactly. It makes them completely useless as a threat. You can simply walk away from them at a brisk pace and completely ignore them. They can't double move, and they can't run, and they can't move and attack unless their path is clear. I mean, some simple difficult terrain pretty much means zombies have been defeated.
Watch what I mean. Let's take the zombie bears I mentioned before. Now these should be pretty tough. Big, claws, teeth, and such. Now let's give it the staggered quality. It's now got 1 attack ever, which is very weak. And it's likely that it will never make that attack, unless someone walks up and gives it a hug. For example, let's say that you encounter a zombie bear in a forest.
You: Win Initiative
You: Walk behind a tree and then walk a little further.
Bear Zombie: Walks around the tree then stops.
You: Run through some vines (difficult terrain).
Bear: Bear moves 1/2 speed through difficult terrain and stops.
You: Shoot bear until dead. Moving a bit occasionally. This CR 6 enemy is easier to kill than a lone goblin.
Or if you're in an open field.
You: Win Initiative
You: Run 120 ft. away.
Bear: Tries to move up to catch you, but can't.
You: Shoot the bear until dead. Moving a bit occasionally. This CR 6 enemy is easier to kill than a lone goblin.
Or on a mountain.
You: Win Initiative
You: Double move across the rocky crags (difficult terrain).
Bear: Moves 1/2 speed and can't keep up.
You: Shoot bear until dead. Moving a bit occasionally. This CR 6 enemy is easier to kill than a lone goblin.
I think the staggered condition makes a lot of confusion. It's pretty exceptional, and the whole 'half charge' and the fact they can still 5 foot step spins people's heads around, especially when they're new to the game or transitioning from Dnd.
The 'staggered' condition was a pretty neat game mechanic, but not intuitive. They probably could have gotten better results by making the zombie template half normal move speeds, and apply a penalty to acrobatics and fly checks.
i think standard zombies aren't used due to the staggard quality where they can either move or attack but not both. Fast zombies don't have the penalty.Exactly. It makes them completely useless as a threat. You can simply walk away from them at a brisk pace and completely ignore them.
Well, yeah. Zombies are only a threat if they're everywhere or you're in an enclosed space -- which is why zombie movies traditionally introduced them in cities. Hundreds of zombies moving everywhere, and nowhere to go. They're not much of a threat as single, avoidable monsters.
So, stuff your close-quarters dark crypts with zombies -- lots of them. That's what they're for.
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One of the fun things about zombies is that you can put that template on any corporeal creature other than undead.
Zombie Xorn are great fun. Great for tight tunnels where the zombie Xorn can use tremor sense to detect victims and then earth glide charge them through the walls.
Yeah, it's fun to throw out unexpected zombie forms.
Unfortunately, though, zombies do lose all non-combat special qualities. I would take this to include earth glide and tremorsense, but understand others may not.
i think standard zombies aren't used due to the staggard quality where they can either move or attack but not both. Fast zombies don't have the penalty.Exactly. It makes them completely useless as a threat. You can simply walk away from them at a brisk pace and completely ignore them.Well, yeah. Zombies are only a threat if they're everywhere or you're in an enclosed space -- which is why zombie movies traditionally introduced them in cities. Hundreds of zombies moving everywhere, and nowhere to go. They're not much of a threat as single, avoidable monsters.
So, stuff your close-quarters dark crypts with zombies -- lots of them. That's what they're for.
The problem is that they're treated like they're somehow not useless except in goofy large numbers and tight corridors. For example, by all reasoning, their CR should be far, far lower than it is, if that is the way they are intended to be. Instead, they are actually a higher CR than the humanoids those zombies would be made of.
For example, if we take a group of human warriors, they are CR 1/3. Turn them into slow moving useless zombies, and you get CR 1/2 soldiers. The living soldiers come in larger mobs and are more dangerous than their zombie counterparts. That alone pretty much makes "zombie horde" kind of an issue. It becomes "zombie treasure/XP haul" instead. Kill lots of useless, slow moving enemies, who are worth more experience than their living faster, more useful, counterparts.
Most "zombie movies" don't introduce them with the useless sluggishness that they are depicted with in D&D. Most make them out to be relentless, surprisingly fast, and quite resilient. Fast zombies do that pretty well. I mean, fast zombies are still tougher than mundane humans (extra hit dice), and something that is worthy of being feared in large numbers. Instead of casually slaughtering them as they try to navigate a stairwell or something, you might actually want to flee.
Plague zombies are also way more fun for the zombie horde concept, simply because with enough of them, somebody is going to contract zombie fever. Possibly contracting it multiple times (there is nothing in the rules preventing you from contracting multiple instances of the same affliction, barring poisons).
But normal zombies are kind of pitiful. Fast Zombies are way scarier. :3
But normal zombies are kind of pitiful. Fast Zombies are way scarier. :3
Hm, I bet we could remake all of those. Let's see...
Fast Zombie commoners x 500 or so.
Forlarren Fast Zombie x 1
Medium sized choker fast zombie x1
Hill Giant fast zombie x1
giant (simple template) plague zombie x1
Anyone got an idea for the smoker? Need something with a goofy long reach. :P
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But normal zombies are kind of pitiful. Fast Zombies are way scarier. :3Hm, I bet we could remake all of those. Let's see...
Fast Zombie commoners x 500 or so.
Forlarren Fast Zombie x 1
Medium sized choker fast zombie x1
Hill Giant fast zombie x1
giant (simple template) plague zombie x1Anyone got an idea for the smoker? Need something with a goofy long reach. :P
a giant frog zombie would give you a tongue with a 15' reach. Trying to think of longer...
BTW, a normal zombie with swallow whole and a reach melee attack would be ruthless.
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Earth glide stays as a form of movement, which the zombie template states stays.
Strangely they do loose the "all-around-vision" that it gives them.
I hear what you're saying.
The problem is that the change in the original 3.5 statblock format to the MMIV format that the PF format is based on separated special qualities into different slots, and the template descriptions don't reflect that.
The MMIV format relegated to the SQ line only those Special Qualities that don't show up in a more specific location. PF's monster introduction merely says: "SQ: Any special qualities possessed by the creature." The Xorn entry for SQ is blank.
I appreciate that not everyone might view this the same, and that's fine.
Best make that a vampire Xorn.