Questions on Vital Strike, Cleave and Using a Lance


Rules Questions


So, I'm doing some research for an article I want to write, and the wording is vague. I think that I'm reading this right, but it would be nice for another set of eyes.

The Vital Strike feats allow you to make a single attack as a basic attack action and re-roll your dice, totalling the damage. However, it says that it's a single attack, which tells me that you have a move action you can do. It also doesn't say that you can't combine Vital Strike with other feats that modify a single attack action.

This is where we get to Cleave. Cleave is also a single attack, but it affects two (or more with additional feats) targets. Can you use Vital Strike to effectively hit two targets on a single swing?

Additionally, if Vital Strike is a single attack, can you make it part of a charge? Can you make a Cleave attack as part of a charge?

Ok, here's the last question. Power Attack does more damage when you're using a two handed weapon. A lance is a two handed weapon, but if you're using it on horseback then you may wield it one handed. Does the nature of the lance, and the fact that it is a two handed weapon, still give you the higher power attack damage?

Thank you all, any help that you can give is greatly appreciated!


You cannot combine Vital Strike and Cleave. Vital Strike activates on the "attack" action where as Cleave is its own standard action (not a normal "attack" action).

You cannot Cleave on a charge. Charging is a full round action, Cleave consumes its own standard action.

You cannot Vital Strike as part of a charge by the rules either (though it seems to be a fairly common house-rule to allow); charging is its own action separate from the "attack" action.

Power Attack gives a -1/+3 with an additional -1/+3 per 4 BAB with a two handed weapon. Even when wielding the lance in one hand, it is classified as a two handed weapon, so you would technically gain the extra damage from wielding a two handed weapon with Power Attack. However, since Power Attack gives you the same bonus with a one handed weapon wielded in two hands, it is probably not RAI to give the full bonus when wielding a two handed weapon in one hand.

Grand Lodge

Yeah, for the most part, you really cannot combine Vital Strike with anything else.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Yeah, for the most part, you really cannot combine Vital Strike with anything else.

My Magus disagrees with you.

Grand Lodge

Martiln wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Yeah, for the most part, you really cannot combine Vital Strike with anything else.
My Magus disagrees with you.

As I said, for the most part, it can't be combined with anything.

I did not say that there weren't exceptions.


Ok, so I've gotten some opinions (thanks all by the way, taking into consideration). But has there been any official clarification for this?

The thing is interpretation. What I'm seeing is the interpretation, by and large, that charge is its own action, and cannot be combined with any non-charge-specific feats. However, the description is a double move and a single attack. The alternative interpretation would be that, because there's that single attack you could apply any feat to that one attack that would be applicable.

I guess what I'm looking for is either an official ruling, or something in print. I've combed the books, but I haven't found a "you can/cannot do X as part of X action," which is something that's often included to stop crazy combinations. There are a lot of interpretations among players and GMs that I've asked, but nothing to settle the argument.

Does anyone have a page number or a passage that I missed?


It'll be in the Combat chapter of the CRB. Or here in the PRD. Specifically you will be looking at the "Actions in Combat" chart. An attack (melee), attack (ranged), or attack (unarmed) is a standard action (the "attack" action). A charge is a full round action (the "charge" action). Vital Strike specifically says: "When you use the attack action..." If you are charging you are not using the attack action. If your GM allows you to use Vital Strike on a charge, it is a house-rule (not an uncommon one). Cleave specifically states that it is its own standard action, so it even more obviously so cannot be used in conjuction with a charge. If Vital Strike said "attack," then maybe it could be interpreted that way, but it doesn't; it says "attack action."


Neal Litherland wrote:
Ok, so I've gotten some opinions (thanks all by the way, taking into consideration). But has there been any official clarification for this?

If by official you mean the RAW;

PRD wrote:

Cleave (Combat)

You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.

Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.

Cleave is a standard action.

PRD wrote:

Vital Strike (Combat)

You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.

Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.

PRD wrote:

Standard Actions

Most of the common actions characters take, aside from movement, fall into the realm of standard actions.

Attack

Making an attack is a standard action.

Vital Strike uses the Attack Action, which is a standard action. Cleave does not use the attack action, it uses it's own action, so you can't do both with the same action.

PRD wrote:

Charge

Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.

Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

Charging is a special full-round action. After moving on a charge you can make a single attack, which is different than the Attack Action, a standard action that also lets you take a single attack.

So Cleave and Charge are their own actions that can't be combined with any other action. They can be combined with attack options that don't require their own action, like Trip.

Vital Strike can only be used when taking the Attack Action, so it also can't be combined with any other action. It can be combined with most attack options that also use the Attack Action, like Sunder, or options that don't require their own action, like Trip.


Would cleaving finish stack with vital strike?


I see no reason why cleaving finish wouldn't be possible after killing an opponent with a vital strike.

Whether the cleaving finish itself would also get vital strike on it, I'm unsure.


Wasn't it decided on another thread you could vital strike on a mounted charge? Since the mount is using a full round action but you maintain the use of your standard?

Dark Archive

Globetrotter wrote:
Wasn't it decided on another thread you could vital strike on a mounted charge? Since the mount is using a full round action but you maintain the use of your standard?

It might not be spelled out exactly, but if the mount charges, and you do not, you don't get the charge x2 on a lance. Basically, both of you should use charge.

The easiest way to think of it and to adjudicate it is to assume when mounted, you are one creature with possibly multiple attacks. But when dismounted, you are separate.

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