So I'm thinking about building a Crossbowman fighter and I'm wondering how I should go about it. Yeah, a longbow is probably more optimized, but save that for another thread. Obviously the usual archery feats (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, etc.) all still apply, just need to add in Rapid Reload and Crossbow Mastery in before lvl 6 when full attacks kick in.
Proposed Feat Build:
1. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload
2. Deadly Aim (essential, since you don't get to add your Str modifier)
3. Rapid Shot
4. Weapon Focus
5. Weapon Specialization
6. Crossbow Mastery
7. Clustered Shot
8. Greater Weapon Focus
9. Improved Initiative
10. Disrupting Shot
11. Whatever you want from here on out!
For weapon choice I think starting out with a light crossbow is best, then graduating to a heavy once you've got Crossbow Mastery. Not sure how I feel about the repeaters, depends on whether Rapid Reload works for them. Reading the feat, it doesn't look like Rapid Reload or Crossbow Mastery works for repeaters.
Since you're going to be upgrading from a light to a heavy around lvl 6, to avoid losing money enchanting your light crossbow I would opt for enchanting your bolts. Its cheaper, you can get a bigger variety, and you can still use them when you upgrade to heavy. Once you get a heavy crossbow, enchant it all you like!
The Quick Sniper ability (gained at lvl 9) is something that should be planned for. I'd put a rank in Stealth at least every other level if you plan on making the most out of it. Don't forget that second bit, if you get hit by a ranged attack you can return fire as an immediate action (if you're loaded). Multiclassing into Rogue (Sniper) is an option, but I don't think it'd be worth it in the long run.
Tactically, you'll want to make good use of your Deadshot (later Greater Deadshot) ability. Ready as many actions as you can, but be smart about it. If you're target never does the action you set your attack to, you just wasted a round. Some DM's will let you ready an attack to multiple actions (if the goblin attacks, casts a spell, moves, etc.), so find out early. I'd recommend targeting spellcasters for whenever they start casting a spell so you can hopefully interrupt them. If you're gonna focus on this, grab Disrupting Shot earlier.
Any other tips? Advice? Criticism? Thanks in advance!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There's a 3.5 feat called Crossbow Sniper that requires crossbow proficiency, bab 1, and weapon focus crossbow. With it you can add 1/2 dex to damage with a crossbow. I'd get that if you are allowed 3.5 material.
Concerning repeating crossbows, it seems like they're made redundant by you getting Crossbow Mastery, plus I thought they were exotic (could be wrong).
There's a 3.5 feat called Crossbow Sniper that requires crossbow proficiency, bab 1, and weapon focus crossbow. With it you can add 1/2 dex to damage with a crossbow. I'd get that if you are allowed 3.5 material.
Concerning repeating crossbows, it seems like they're made redundant by you getting Crossbow Mastery, plus I thought they were exotic (could be wrong).
I like Crossbow Sniper, do you know what book its from? My DM will probably allow it if I can find the source.
Yeah, repeaters don't seem to be worth it since Crossbow Mastery lets you full attack and Rapid Reload doesn't seem to work with them. If you CAN use Rapid Reload with a repeater you will do OBSCENE amounts of damage though. Repeating crossbows are exotic weapons, so yeah you'd need to add the feat.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Crossbow Sniper is in the Player's Handbook 2.
Crossbow Sniper is in the Player's Handbook 2.
Thanks!
Another point I forgot to make: get a bayonet on your crossbow! There's no reason you can't be threatening with your main weapon. Don't let it be your only melee, but its a cheap way to ensure you can do AoO's.
Wait a minute, hold that bayonet idea. Just read the full weapon description and it says that:
"Bayonets allow you to make melee attacks with these weapons but render them temporarily useless as ranged weapons."
Does that mean that if I have a bayonet attached to my crossbow that I can't use it to shoot? Or does it mean that I won't be able to shoot with it that round if I attack with the bayonet (kinda like you don't get a shield bonus the round you shield bash)?
I'd go with the second option. Only plug bayonets on a firearm would render it unable to shoot, but that's why we use the screw on ones. For crossbows I can't imagine how a bayonet would render it unable to fire.
Could we get a ruling on this?
1: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload
2: Rapid Shot
3: Crossbow Mastery
4: Weapon Focus
5: Weapon Specialization
6: Point Blank Master
7: Catch Off-Guard
8: Deadly Aim
And so on from there...
Deadly Aim isn't really helpful until you get a few levels anyhow.
Point Blank Master is kind of essential, imo; don't get AoOed for shooting in melee when you're not getting AoOed for reloading.
Catch Off-Guard lets you use the stock of your crossbow as an improvised weapon & hit them flat-footed, to boot. No bayonet problem.
My couple'a'coppers.
1: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload
2: Rapid Shot
3: Crossbow Mastery
4: Weapon Focus
5: Weapon Specialization
6: Point Blank Master
7: Catch Off-Guard
8: Deadly AimAnd so on from there...
Deadly Aim isn't really helpful until you get a few levels anyhow.
Point Blank Master is kind of essential, imo; don't get AoOed for shooting in melee when you're not getting AoOed for reloading.
Catch Off-Guard lets you use the stock of your crossbow as an improvised weapon & hit them flat-footed, to boot. No bayonet problem.
My couple'a'coppers.
Didn't know about Point Blank Master, a great feat for this!
I like having Deadly Aim in pretty soon so you can increase your damage. Since you can't add your Str to damage like a composite bow can, I figure getting this sooner helps you keep up with the archer.
Catch Off-Guard is nice, I like the idea of hitting them with the butt of the crossbow, but I'd only get it if the bayonet thing doesn't work.
Focused shot is it's own separate action, thus it can't be combined with VS.
@pobbes: That's a cool idea, but I think I'd rather have more attacks via Rapid Reload+Crossbow Mastery.
Another option to replace the bayonet could be Snap Shot. I'm playing with an archery ranger who uses this feat and does pretty well with it. It would only work once I've got Crossbow Mastery, but still not a bad option.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some options to consider:
1) Check with the GM on using a large heavy crossbow (2d8 damage). Since "you can shoot, but not load, a heavy crossbow [of the same size category] with one hand," you can shoot a crossbow one size category larger with two hands with the rules for inapproriately sized weapons; the only question is if the penalty is just -2 for the difference in size category or -6 for also adding the -4 penalty for shooting with "one hand."
2) Invest in a wand of gravity bow (cheap at 750 gp) as soon as you can afford it. Max out Use Magic Device and don't dump Cha; if traits are allowed, take Dangerously Curious. Alternately, be a half-elf and take the alternate racial trait Arcane Training (sorcerer or wizard); you lose the favored class bonuses for fighter, but can use spell-completion (scrolls) and spell-trigger (wands/staves) items as if a 1st level sorcerer/wizard without multi-classing.
3) Look at the Vital Strike feat chain at higher levels. Yes, Crossbow Mastery lets you full attack with a heavy crossbow, but for situations when you can't full attack (for example, the surprise round), Vital Strike lets you deal extra damage with a standard action.
4) A gnome with the alternate racial trait Master Tinker is "treated as proficient with any weapon they have personally crafted." With a +2 to Craft (Weapons) from Obsessive, a 12 Int, and two ranks in the Craft (Weapons) skill, a gnome can craft any non-bow exotic weapon by taking 10 (+2 rank +3 class skill +1 Int +2 Obsessive = +8 skill check modifier; crossbows have a DC 15 skill check and exotic melee or thrown weapons have a DC 18); you can have a gnome fighter with a repeating heavy crossbow and falcata without spending feats on exotic weapon proficiencies. For a repeating heavy crossbow, abundant ammunition on the bolt case is a great option (either with a wand or as a custom magic item). Purchase masterwork artisan tools (weaponsmith), and you can make your own masterwork weapons, too (an additional +2 on Craft (Weapons) checks for a +10 skill check modifier; take 10 for the DC 20 for the masterwork component). For three more ranks (five total) and two feats (Master Craftsman and Craft Magic Arms and Armor), you can also make your own magic weapons; in this case, you should keep puting ranks in Craft (Weapons) up to 15 (to meet the CL requirement for a +5 enhancement bonus)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you're using a heavy crossbow, "keeping up with the archers" is (imo) kind of a nonissue, and remember that Deadly Aim is making you hit a little less-frequently. Putting off picking it up until you have a higher BAB to work with just lets you motor past the archers later in the race. (Though the archers will likely be taking it anyway, too, so the 'keeping up with' strategy is fatally flawed...)
Suit yourself, obviously. My own goal is to reach freedom from AoO as soon as possible, and stack on extra damage later. But that's just me...
If you're using a heavy crossbow, "keeping up with the archers" is (imo) kind of a nonissue, and remember that Deadly Aim is making you hit a little less-frequently. Putting off picking it up until you have a higher BAB to work with just lets you motor past the archers later in the race. (Though the archers will likely be taking it anyway, too, so the 'keeping up with' strategy is fatally flawed...)
Suit yourself, obviously. My own goal is to reach freedom from AoO as soon as possible, and stack on extra damage later. But that's just me...
I can see your point and it makes sense. My first priority is doing as much damage as possible. Far as I can tell, the best way to accomplish that is with full attacks, which crossbows are normally incapable of doing. So first major milestone for me is making sure I can do full attacks.
Suppose it would make sense to talk about race and stats.
Ability Scores
For ability scores, Dex will have the highest priority, followed by Con, Str, Wis, Int, and Cha. I put Con over Str because the extra hp and Fort saves seem to be more valuable than using your melee weapon. Wis is of course important, while Int and Cha are dump stats.
Race Choices
Human is a great choice, as always. Half-Elves and half-orcs are good too, especially with their weapon proficiencies (half-elves choosing Ancestral Arms). Elves and halflings should be pretty good to, as they both boost Dexterity, but have a drawback (-2 Con and small size, respectively). Dwarves aren't that great and gnomes are probably the worst of the core race choices.
For non-core races, catfolk are a good choice, as are dhampir, fetchling, drow, drow noble, goblin, grippli, hobgoblin, ifrit, merfolk, ratfolk, strix, sylph, tengu, tiefling, undine, vanara, and vishkanya.
As a crossbowman, you don't need strength at all, aside from skill checks and carrying capacity unless your DM gives you strength ratings on your crossbows. There's no minimum strength to crank back the string so it could go Dex>Con>Wis>Int>Str>Cha unless you plan on being a switch hitter.
As a crossbowman, you don't need strength at all, aside from skill checks and carrying capacity unless your DM gives you strength ratings on your crossbows. There's no minimum strength to crank back the string so it could go Dex>Con>Wis>Int>Str>Cha unless you plan on being a switch hitter.
I put Str higher than the mental stats because even though crossbows don't need Str, melee combat does. You simply don't always have the option of using your crossbow, and if you do its not always the best choice. So carry a longsword or a glaive or whatever to make sure you can still hold your own in these situations.
I hate to think about characters this way, but the fighter's "job" is to do as much damage as possible in fights. If there's a situation where your ability to do damage is reduced, why not fix that?
Because once you eliminate the AoOs, you don't need to carry that longsword for melee?
Because once you eliminate the AoOs, you don't need to carry that longsword for melee?
-Crossbow can be disarmed
-Crossbow can be broken-Fight could take place in a small area, making ranged attacks difficult
-Enemy could have Wind Wall and Protection from Arrows up
There are a lot of reasons why using a crossbow could be impossible or not as good as a melee weapon. I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
If he disarmed your crossbow, why wouldn't he disarm your longsword too? Same for the sundering. Point-blank master comes in and negates cover in small spaces. Pass through the wind wall or pick a different target; pick off the mooks while the the rest of the party hits the guy with PfA up.
I'm not saying it's perfect, but you could just take weapon finesse and carry a dagger on you or something. and still have str be a tertiary stat behind con.
If he disarmed your crossbow, why wouldn't he disarm your longsword too? Same for the sundering. Point-blank master comes in and negates cover in small spaces. Pass through the wind wall or pick a different target; pick off the mooks while the the rest of the party hits the guy with PfA up.
I'm not saying it's perfect, but you could just take weapon finesse and carry a dagger on you or something. and still have str be a tertiary stat behind con.
Hmm, fair point. Adding on Weapon Finesse is easy as a fighter too.
With Weapon Finesse for your back-up (i.e., melee) attacks, see also Improved Critical: Rapier at 8th+ level. Or just get a Keen one.
If you can find the spare Feat, Quick Draw is awfully handy for those times when you have to switch suddenly...
If I was playing a Inquisitor, which gets repeating Crossbow for free, what feats would be best? Would repeating CB be a good deal if there's no feat tax?
I have a lot of love for the Crossbowman. There's some good stuff in a thread from a few months back.
Two words: Minotaur Crossbow.
Explain.
@DrDeath: The usual archery feats, but skip Rapid Reload and Crossbow Mastery as they don't seem to apply to repeaters (unless your DM rules that they can). A repeating crossbow will be great for an inquisitor, just remember that you're gonna burn through bolts like a bat out of a cliche.
I have a lot of love for the Crossbowman. There's some good stuff in a thread from a few months back.
Just read the bit about Vital Strike working well with Deadeye, I'll need to work that in (probably lvl 7).