Hello everyone,
I hope to get some help in building an "Undead Scourge" Paladin.
Requirements/Restrictions: NO Ultimate C/M, only Core & APG.
Starting with attributes & race (preferable human) and which direction to assign the feats (up to level 15 if you like).
The group already has a healing cleric, so this build should focus on dealing damage (to the undead).
I hope some of you like to give it a try or can give me some pointers regarding "sticks 'n' stones" with this build.
Thank you very much.
What is the point buy, and are traits allowed?
Ah yes. 15 points point-buy and traits from the APG.
I would go with a two hander since it easier to use with a 15 point buy.
str 16(14+2 from human)
dex -8
con 14
int 10
wis 12
cha 14
You can make the intelligence a 12 if you want another skill instead of the higher wisdom.
1 Power Attack(Falchion)
3 Furious Focus
5 Lunge
7 Toughness
9
11 Dazing Assault
13
15 quicken SLA(Divine Bond (Sp)
Perception
knowledge religion
Diplomacy
Well, thanks you two, first of all.
The abilities match with my basic idea: 14, 10, 14, 10, 10, 16.
They simply seem pretty boring.
Thought about INT 8, WIS 12, but I like skill points so... :/
And I don't envision him as dumb/slow.
Skills will be:
Knowledge (Religion) - determining Undead, obviously but he is also a very devout person.
Perception - All-time ready
Sense Motive - Distrustful (Spirit-Possessing, sinister personalities...)
(Survival - Hunting the Undead)
The feats give me the biggest headache, and whether to go S&B or TH.
Toughness at level 7?
Why not at 1st (human feat i.e.)
And what about the "Vital Strike" or "Cleave" feats?
What about "Endurance/Die Hard"?
I like Wraiths feats but I have to poo poo his stat distribution. I'd go with something like this;
Str 14
Dex 10
con 14
int 12
wis 8
cha 16(+2 human)
It is not that different. You favored cha of str, and int over wis.
I personally don't believe in dumping wisdom because it affects will saves, and failing will saves is never good. Being a two-hander it wont matter if he loses a little dex, but will make him better at wisdom or intelligence.
I forgot about the human feat. You can use toughness at first level with that.
Vital Strike is not good, and so neither is cleave past low levels. Now if your GM does everything in his power to restrict full attacks then vital strike is a little better, but at that point I would try to bypass his restrictions. As an example there are ways to get past difficult terrain.
Endurance, and die hard are too situational. You can lay on hands yourself as a swift action, and still get a full round attack in. On top of that, you have a cleric in the party.
Endurance might be ok if you are worried about sleeping in armor, but if it is only to take die hard then I would not take it.
edit:Which level are you starting at? If you are starting past level 3 or 4 I would not take cleave.
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i have used cleave ->improved cleaving finish on my pally with great sucess. a reach weapon + combat expertise allows for some pretty nasty damage each round. but in order for that buld to work, you would need
to rearrange your stats for that build to be functional.
14
14
12
7
12
16
is what i would use.
if you really care about having skills i would suggest that you dip into a class like ranger even with 4 skills per level your choice of class skills is so limited as a paladin that perception isnt even a valid option to invest points into.
a mobility build with dodge mobility spring attack vital strike with a 2 handed weapon could be fun to play. mithril brest plate and vital striking with a great sword.
Don't dump too much from DEX - remember, your armor won't be very effective against touch attacks, which many undead possess....
Might I recommend to you Bodhi's Guide to the Optimal Paladin and Antipaladin?
Thanks for the guide. Was somewhat helpful.
I will almost definitely stay with my stats (14,10,14,10,10,16), since I'm not that much of a powergamer to make my Paladin as dumb as they come (INT 7 - seriously, you guys actually PLAY INT 7?), and since WIS affects WILL, Perception and Sense Motive, I will not dump that either.
The same goes for DEX, REF-saves & AC are important enough to not ditch on those.
But thanks for the input anyways.
Right now, I'm thinkin' about Half-Elf + Ancestral Arms (Curve Blade)
Thanks for the guide. Was somewhat helpful.
I will almost definitely stay with my stats (14,10,14,10,10,16), since I'm not that much of a powergamer to make my Paladin as dumb as they come (INT 7 - seriously, you guys actually PLAY INT 7?), and since WIS affects WILL, Perception and Sense Motive, I will not dump that either.
The same goes for DEX, REF-saves & AC are important enough to not ditch on those.
But thanks for the input anyways.Right now, I'm thinkin' about Half-Elf + Ancestral Arms (Curve Blade)
I like your array, it's solid, but I'd put the racial bonus in STR rather than CHA. Saves are important, but your job is to fight.
I'd also put a 12 in DEX and 8 in WIS or maybe INT: you have already far better will saves than most classes (you have good save progression for will, you add CHA, have immunity to fear and later on to charm effects), and for a paladin I feel that diplomacy and perception with a rank or two in knowledge nobility is all that I need. In melee a +1 to AC will be relevant, especially at lower level, and +1 to initiative is not very impressive but always nice.
@TheSideKick:
Thanks for the advice with dipping into "Ranger".
I will definitely do that on 2nd and/or 3rd level.
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@ Crysknife:
You might be one to something regarding STR/CHA. I checked where CHA actually affects the Paladin's abilities and it boils down to:
1) CHA Bonus to-hit/AC when smiting (only situational and whether +3 or +2)
2) Save Bonus (Already have good Fort & Will, dipping into ranger = +2 Fort & Ref, Dex/Wis 12 = +1 Ref/Will + more, so nett-gain here)
3) Uses of "Lay on Hands" (there's always a feat to get 2 extra uses)
4) Spell Casting (CHA 14 would be enough, except for 1 3rd lvl bonus spell, but who cares)
5) Diplomacy/Handle Animal (I won't use either)
But instead of packing another STR, I now think about making one 10 into a 12.
I always prefer more flexible/well-rounded characters, so I now have to figure out if it's either DEX, INT, or WIS (or maybe STR after all).
DEX - INI, AC, REF
INT - Skill points, Knowledge Skills
WIS - WILL, Perception & Sense Motive
...
You know, I could also lower CON to 12 and make ALL 10s into 12s!
Now that looks interesting (or rather funny...): 14, 12, 12, 12, 12, 14.
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BTW Feats:
What about "Improved Initiative"?
Couldn't edit, so have to post again:
Final stats (hopefully):
STR 15 (+1 at 4th)
DEX 12
CON 13 (+1 at 8th)
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 14
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BTW, the group consists of Cleric (Healing+???), Monk, Sorcerer (Elemental).
So my Paladin would have to be what? Tank? Damager? Both?
Your stats are going to suck for a while but you can increase them later. I like going first in combat and putting a whooping on the bad guys.
Feats:
Improved initiative
Selective channeling - If you are the only healer
Vital Strike
Power Attack
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I would recommend S&B. Look into taking the shield feats and using bull rush and overrun to gain AoO's and give the same to your party. The Pally is very much the party player and makes a fantastic tank. If you want to be a lone hunter I would suggest trying a ranger.
Also, vital strike and cleave is a trap.
I disagree with going S&B. Your AC shouldn't too high that intelligent enemies will go looking for squishier targets. I'd go two-handed weapon, get a high crit weapon like a Falchion, and eventually get the crit feats. You want the enemy to see you as the biggest threat, and wielding big a** sword which you use dismember them with should do the trick.
I do agree Vital Strike is a trap.
I personally don't believe in dumping wisdom because it affects will saves, and failing will saves is never good. Being a two-hander it wont matter if he loses a little dex, but will make him better at wisdom or intelligence.
Actually, with a good base will save and his cha modifier to boot, the paladin can get away with lower wis. And having him be charmed or dominated is not such a huge deal, since he is a paladin. Almost anything that an evil character can ask him will contradict his nature, and allow for either opposed cha checks or a new save at +2.
I played a paladin with Wis 8, and never had a problem.
So with "trap" you mean, it seems good but isn't actually?
(or just trap = crap?)
Something else:
What do you think about whether go spellcasting or "Warrior of the Holy Light"?
Are the paladin spells worth it?
Thanks for the guides.
They where somewhat helpful, but neither took the APG into account, if I am not mistaken.
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However, I'm still not convinced whether to keep spell casting or going "Holy Light".
Holy Light itself might not be THAT good (never saw it in action), but it's 1 extra LoH per 4th level, if nothing else!
And since the group will have a full "support-casting cleric" I don't think I really need "Cure" wands when still having LoH.
Anyone else with an oppinion to this?
Paladin spellcasting is much more useful than the Holy Light ability. The Paladin spelllist adds some nice versatility, and comes with plenty of buffs that will be better than the holy light effect.
In one of our campaigns I'm playing a halfelf paladin.
It's really fun, go for it!
I actually play a straight core paladin, smite, lay on hands, the spells, the auras, the divine bond (weapon) are all great abilities!
I'm fighting with a one-handed high-crit weapon ("great scimitar" from D&D 3e sandstorm, exotic weapon feat from ancestral arms from APG) and a buckler, so that I can easily switch to taking the weapon into both hands for more power attack oomph.
Right now we're level 8, I found that in the early levels with less smites/day a higher strength was really useful. As was- and still is - cleave.
Later on I'll go for the critical feats.
Okay then, I'll give it a try.
Although "Compel Hostility" won't be a choice since we don't have UC & UM.
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What do you guys think about traits?
I thought:
"Reactionary" and either "Magical Knack" or "Armor Expert".
Other ideas?
(And as I said before ONLY Advance Player's Guide please)