I want to give experience in a game using kingmaker rules (using, not centric of) and downtime rules.
I had a reasonable plotted algorithm for this some years ago but that is long lost to me, ive tried and tried.
So now I must make a new algorithm.
Please help me, what do you all think would be a reasonable DC to experience ratio for players to craft or otherwise do things other than CR encounters to gain experience?
I would come at it backwards, how much downtime activity do you want to be enough to level? Based on that set a cr equivalent for skill checks (referencing CR instead of an independent xp value sounds easier to me since number of encounters to level is already part of the xp value per cr.)
I do not intend to look at it that way, I want to create a reasonable algorithm for dc that scales with leveling to allow something that feels comfortable. Nothing crazy, just comfortable. Make it so one feels ok doing crafting stuff instead of forcing themselves to go out adventuring to level.
also, to make sure those who do craft... mages and such... dont end up falling behind the fighters.
Reasonable to avoid falling behind is something that depends on how many encounters are being given up in order to craft or do other downtime. It's not a figure which has an independent existence.
How many encounters would you say a character 'gives up' by taking a week of downtime?
DC X 10 XP?
I mean, if PCs can earn XP for just running a business, why should they go out and adventure?
have you guys even played kingmaker?
Mark, that statement demonstrates either bias or poor understanding. I am inclined to believe bias.
avr, in kingmaker you can have many encounters as you explore hexes or deal with kingdom events. All variable encounters.
DCx 10, for a 35 dc thing, 350 exp for a full days work? maybe... at low level you handle dc 20 and 30 and most encounters are a few hundred xp... divided by participants. Crafting is done solo but you can have multiple encounters in a day.
eh. Maybe half. dc x5. or dc x 5 x half level?
thatd be 175 for a dc 35... doubled every 2 levels? so at level 2 itd be 360 and at level 4 its 720? maybe a little too high still?
dc x 4 x half level
280 for level 2's. 560 for level 4s?
is that still too crazy? I can see some people trying to get faster crafting to make this work for them.
So I imagine it being double again for those people.
perhaps a dc x 3 is best fit.
210 for level 2 (420 for crazy crafters) 420 for level 4 (840)
that feels actually reasonably both ways.
level 1 and 2 people wont craft very high, and crazy abuse will just barely keep up crafting experience relevance later on down the line.
The difference is that even if you go out adventuring you might walk for days without an encounter. The person at home can craft to their heart's content with no need to rely on the fickle minds of bandits, monsters and demons.
So 350xp per day might equate to 3,500xp vs the party's one encounter. It's probably not quite that extreme (you'll probably have more than one encounter in 10 days), but you get the idea. Also while the party might earn 5,000xp from their encounter they have to share that between them, so a 4 person party leaves the Wizard behind to go adventuring and earn 5,000xp in ... let's say 5 days. That's 1,666.66xp each, or 333.33xp each per day. Suddenly the wizard's 350xp/day from crafting is looking much better.
*I made those numbers up, so they may not be even vaguely representative of the actual xp they earn (and the similar results were purely coincidence). The idea here is that 1 day's crafting shouldn't necessarioy be analogous to 1 day's woth of combat encounterns, or even 1 encounter.
MrCharisma wrote: The difference is that even if you go out adventuring you might walk for days without an encounter. The person at home can craft to their heart's content with no need to rely on the fickle minds of bandits, monsters and demons.
So 350xp per day might equate to 3,500xp vs the party's one encounter. It's probably not quite that extreme (you'll probably have more than one encounter in 10 days), but you get the idea. Also while the party might earn 5,000xp from their encounter they have to share that between them, so a 4 person party leaves the Wizard behind to go adventuring and earn 5,000xp in ... let's say 5 days. That's 1,666.66xp each, or 333.33xp each per day. Suddenly the wizard's 350xp/day from crafting is looking much better.
*I made those numbers up, so they may not be even vaguely representative of the actual xp they earn (and the similar results were purely coincidence). The idea here is that 1 day's crafting shouldn't necessarioy be analogous to 1 day's woth of combat encounterns, or even 1 encounter.
you didnt read what I said.
Yup, I totally misread it =P
If the XP is for crafting, and crafting specifically, how high do crafting DCs get? For example:
Crafting a light crossbow requires Craft: Weapons at a DC 15. A PC that can hit a +5 on their Craft skill at level 1 can take 10 every day for 225 SP worth of crafting towards the crossbow each week, or 45 SP/day for a 5 day work week. Since a light crossbow costs 35 GP crafting one for this PC requires 8 days worth of crafting.
First off, this means the PC either breaks up their crafting over multiple days, between adventures, or it means they're home doing their work for 8 days straight. Either way, they're earning 8 days worth of XP under your skill XP algorithm.
Secondly though, the crossbow will not increase in DC. If the PC gets more skill and wants to push themselves faster they can choose to increase the DC; they can also add a Masterwork component for a DC 20 challenge, but otherwise DCs are pretty fixed.
As the party levels they will likely want to craft magic items. These DCs are also a fixed thing; CL of the item +5 so long as you have all the prereqs needed for the device. An Amulet of Mighty Fists +1 has a CL of 5, so a 5th level PC can craft one with a Spellcraft DC 10 if they've got Greater Magic Fang laying around in some form. It'll take them a couple of days, but they'll get the work done.
Based on your algorithm, which is based on DCs, the level 1 PC taking 8 days to craft a light crossbow grants DC x 3 x 1/2 level, so 45 XP/day for a total of 360 XP for his efforts. A PC crafting an Amulet of Mighty Fists +1 requires 2 days' work at 60 XP/day, for a total of 120 XP for the magic item.
Some PCs, if they're well prepared, will earn less XP for crafting expensive magic items than they will for making complex mundane items.
Now, how do you figure in crafting while adventuring? I know not many people do this but I have an Investigator/Wizard in one of my games who just recently realized how useful alchemical items are AND that with his portable lab he could be making stuff all the time, 2 hours a night, while still adventuring. During those 2 hours, even if he's not completing his work, this 9th level PC is working towards DC 20-25 items. Each day this PC can craft a little over 6 GP worth of progress in those 2 hours; this small amount of work would earn him DC x3 x 1/2 level, or 300 XP, on top of whatever else he'd earned for his daily adventure.
Would your algorithm only award XP for Downtime rounds specifically? Would there also be XP for running a business? An Inn during Downtime, adding up all rooms, hits a decent bonus for earning gold, but there's no DC involved so running an Inn for a day would earn no XP but crafting light crossbow at level 1 earns 45. Would there be a separate algorithm for earning a profit?
Firstly, no, profit from crafting will be normal per rules since thats already an established rule.
There are also rules for making a craft dc higher to craft faster and it works incrementally.
Crafting while adventuring, per rules, allows one to craft for 2 hours a night assuming a normal 8 hour night. (as you presented).
you bring up a good point though. someone can double dip by adventuring and crafting per what I just said since its purely based on dc per day.
So, I should account for hours crafting. There is a hard limit of 8 hours crafting magical items per day because of 'mental strain'... this further reinforces vested interest in mundane item crafting.
Things like a ring of sustenance would also give more hours crafting during adventuring.
In addition, crafting alchemical items, there are ways to craft those, specifically, faster without touching DC... An alchemist can almost craft an item a round.
so, to avoid all that. I think am HOURLY dc experience should also be included in the algorithm.
So, maybe, DC x 15 x half level /8. and then they get xp incrementally based on the number of hours they craft. Someone crafting at home can inherently craft more, a magical item and a mundane item, potentially multiple mundane items (I'd have to limit this to like 8 hours a day with those who can craft faster or longer only counting at half an hour increments (for a total of 16 hours a day)
So with (DC x 15 x 1/2 level)/8, a level 1 PC with a masterwork tool could conceivably hit a +10 on their Craft skill, allowing them to take 10 and hit 20. The algorithm would award them 20 x 15 x1 = 300, divided by 8 as 37.5 XP per hour. Its a small amount per hour so yeah, that makes sense.
A level 6 PC, say one who is an Int-based caster, likely has a circlet helping them and may have bumped their Int a point at level 4; let's just say they've got an Int of 22 for a bonus of +6 from that. Tack on Downtime business stuff they've built up over the past 5 levels, that gives them a +2 Masterwork tools bonus from having a workshop. Give them a Team that gives them 3 apprentices that each grant a +2 Aid Another bonus; 5 Labor spent in a settlement large enough to spend that much in a day for another +5 Aid Another, and 2 spells cast on them which combined grant them +10 to their crafting (Crafter's Fortune/+5 Competency; Visualization of the Mind/+5 on Int based checks for 24 hours) and finally, give this PC 6 ranks on a skill which for them is a Class skill, and you're looking at them taking a 10 for a total of 29. If they could squeeze out another +1, say from casting Fox's Cunning on themselves, having yet another Aid Another bonus from a Familiar/Intelligent Animal Companion, or a Trait bonus, they could hit a DC 30 by taking 10.
30 x 15 x 3 = 1,350 XP. So if this PC stays home for 8 hours, works in their workshop and really pulls out a lot of stops (which I admit; this is an extreme case not likely to happen), they receive more XP for working towards rapid crafting a mundane Good lock than they would for defeating a CR 4 creature alone in single-combat.
What if you just gave a fixed amount, like 1 share of a CR-appropriate monster based on the size of the group and a standard 8 hour workday? A level 1 PC crafting for 8 hours, under Medium progression in a 4 person group gets 100 XP. If they craft for 2 hours at the end of an adventuring day, they get 25 XP. Additionally, you can adjust the XP up or down based on the complexity of the item. A DC 25 Tanglefoot Bag gives the PC 1.5 x the normal amount of XP; a wooden spoon gives .25 x the normal XP; a Masterwork component added in moves the initial CR of the item crafted up +1.
The same level 6 PC, regardless of skill, gets 900 XP for the Good lock they spend 8 hours working on. I know you don't want CR-based XP for everything in the game but this might not only simplify things a little bit (though I admit, there's still some judgment on your part as the GM to determine what is a Simple versus Complex item) and also keeps the XP award low enough that PCs aren't gaming the system during Downtime.
One last thing about a CR-based approach: since it's not tied to DCs for crafting, this means that with a bit of adjudicating on your part it could be applied to ANY skill check made during Downtime. This way if a PC is, say, a Barbarian 7/Bard 2 that never... EVER seems to use the free Craft skill I gave her... I mean, her GM gave her in this hypothetical scenario... and instead spends a day of Downtime using Intimidate to force some local merchants to tell her what they know of Irongate, the ruined castle megadungeon on the moors that merchants have quietly been running supplies out to for months, the "bard-barian" could earn, say, 1600 XP for an Average difficulty skill challenge during her downtime while the other 3 PCs craft their hearts out and earn similar rewards.
firstly, your example started at 6 then used 3 for the math.
30 x 15 x 6 = 2,700
that does seem a smidgen high, and if they use a ring of sustenance or something they can double that. even at level 6, 5400 a day is a LOT of experience.
I've seen other forums suggest a cr appropriate conversion for 'skill challanges'. I dunno... its probably the 'arbitrary' element that makes me the most uncomfortable too. I like universal rules, no one asking why their alchemist fire got then 100 xp while that other persons coffin got them 400... (or reverse the items).
there's less arguments and questions with a streamlined algorithm.
You are right on most the perks of using CR based conversions for skill checks though. its a sound method for most, but for me the dc to xp is more comfortable.
Though, on your last point, I am def going to use the algorithm for more than just crafting. Spending time interrogating would earn xp, juggling in streets would earn xp, reading in a library would earn xp. hunting could earn xp (trapping or hunting a deer, not hunting a manticore... IE profession hunting).
hmm, 900? I suppose 900 would be ok.
that would be at a rate of 5 xp per dc.
at level 1 they get 150, 2 they get 300. I think thats acceptable actually. Dials it down to 37 an hour for lower levels.
Maybe nudge it up a little so its more rewarding for people who dont just take 10. 7 per dc? its slow enough but not terribly slow.
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