|
5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ.
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Am I reading this correctly; Improved Two-Weapon Feint does not have Two-Weapon Feint as a prerequisite?
Improved Two-Weapon Feint wrote: Prerequisites: Dex 17, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6. I've checked FAQ and there doesn't seem to be a correction to this.
I've got the same question. Here's to hoping one of the devs notice this post.
Considering how feat intensive the whole two weapon fighting and feint trees are, one could only hope that its not an error but it most likely is.
As I read the feats, it looks like the real error is that improved two weapon feint is supposed to be regular two weapon feint, and that feat shouldn't exist.
If a character takes two weapon feint, and full attacks, they sacrifice their primary (full str bonus) attack to bluff. They then attack with -2 from twf, and if they hit, they deal only half str damage. Even if your put your good weapon in your offhand, you're losing to hit and damage.
Compare that to improved feint. Spend a move action to feint, then if you hit you deal full strength damage, possibly strength and a half even, and there is no penalty to hit. Both are a full round of actions.
Other than being a prerequisite for improved tw feint, it serves no purpose. And then we see that it ISN'T a prereq for it, so it really has no purpose.
I think at best, improved feint should be a prereq for improved two weapon feint(which should be renamed two weapon feint), which I don't think should have itwf as a prereq either. You'll notice improved feinting flurry does the same thing but doesn't require "improved flurry of blows." Yes I realize it doesn't exist, but it still doesn't hardly seem fair, since the feinting flurry feat is itself already waaaaay more useful than two weapon feint. They could at least not lay on the suck extra thick for the two weapon version.
As for extra evidence, notice the way improved feinting flurry references using "feinting flurry" but improved two weapon feint gives the full explanation for how it works, as if it was written before the weaker version which would have then copied it.
Anyone know who actually wrote the feats? I suspect they all have the same author (except the mysteriously useless two weapon feint).
Feryn wrote: As I read the feats, it looks like the real error is that improved two weapon feint is supposed to be regular two weapon feint, and that feat shouldn't exist.
If a character takes two weapon feint, and full attacks, they sacrifice their primary (full str bonus) attack to bluff. They then attack with -2 from twf, and if they hit, they deal only half str damage. Even if your put your good weapon in your offhand, you're losing to hit and damage.
Compare that to improved feint. Spend a move action to feint, then if you hit you deal full strength damage, possibly strength and a half even, and there is no penalty to hit. Both are a full round of actions.
Other than being a prerequisite for improved tw feint, it serves no purpose. And then we see that it ISN'T a prereq for it, so it really has no purpose.
I think at best, improved feint should be a prereq for improved two weapon feint(which should be renamed two weapon feint), which I don't think should have itwf as a prereq either. You'll notice improved feinting flurry does the same thing but doesn't require "improved flurry of blows." Yes I realize it doesn't exist, but it still doesn't hardly seem fair, since the feinting flurry feat is itself already waaaaay more useful than two weapon feint. They could at least not lay on the suck extra thick for the two weapon version.
As for extra evidence, notice the way improved feinting flurry references using "feinting flurry" but improved two weapon feint gives the full explanation for how it works, as if it was written before the weaker version which would have then copied it.
Anyone know who actually wrote the feats? I suspect they all have the same author (except the mysteriously useless two weapon feint).
Two-Weapon Feint is a de facto Rogue feat. If you're a Fighter, giving up your first attack is not worth the AC penalty they take on your next attack. But if you're a Rogue that's choosing between full attacking for 1d6/1d6 or Two-Weapon Feinting for 1d6+5d6 sneak, Two-Weapon Feint is clearly better.
RumpinRufus wrote: Feryn wrote: As I read the feats, it looks like the real error is that improved two weapon feint is supposed to be regular two weapon feint, and that feat shouldn't exist.
If a character takes two weapon feint, and full attacks, they sacrifice their primary (full str bonus) attack to bluff. They then attack with -2 from twf, and if they hit, they deal only half str damage. Even if your put your good weapon in your offhand, you're losing to hit and damage.
Compare that to improved feint. Spend a move action to feint, then if you hit you deal full strength damage, possibly strength and a half even, and there is no penalty to hit. Both are a full round of actions.
Other than being a prerequisite for improved tw feint, it serves no purpose. And then we see that it ISN'T a prereq for it, so it really has no purpose.
I think at best, improved feint should be a prereq for improved two weapon feint(which should be renamed two weapon feint), which I don't think should have itwf as a prereq either. You'll notice improved feinting flurry does the same thing but doesn't require "improved flurry of blows." Yes I realize it doesn't exist, but it still doesn't hardly seem fair, since the feinting flurry feat is itself already waaaaay more useful than two weapon feint. They could at least not lay on the suck extra thick for the two weapon version.
As for extra evidence, notice the way improved feinting flurry references using "feinting flurry" but improved two weapon feint gives the full explanation for how it works, as if it was written before the weaker version which would have then copied it.
Anyone know who actually wrote the feats? I suspect they all have the same author (except the mysteriously useless two weapon feint).
Two-Weapon Feint is a de facto Rogue feat. If you're a Fighter, giving up your first attack is not worth the AC penalty they take on your next attack. But if you're a Rogue that's choosing between full attacking for 1d6/1d6 or Two-Weapon Feinting for 1d6+5d6... In what way has it served the rogue better than improved feint?
EDIT: Well, I suppose if you have 5d6 sneak attack that means you have an iterative attack, and in the case that you don't fancy the idea of gaining a 2nd offhand attack and also don't want to feint your opponent for the full attack instead of just the next one, you could use two weapon feint to make 3 attacks, dropping the first to feint and not gaining sneak attack (and probably not hitting) with the 3rd. I don't think that justifies the existence of the feat though.
The key difference is the barrier to learning, and the scope of the benefit.
Two Weapon Feint is a neat way of giving a character that uses two weapons to feint during a full attack, which is much better than as a move action once the character gets BAB +6/1. He still gets to make two attack in a turn that he has feinted.
But feinting lasts until your next attack.
Improved Two weapon feint has a much larger barrier to learn, but the benefit is that the target loses their dexterity until the end of the user's turn. Suddenly all attacks made become easier to hit and possibly dealing sneak attack damage as well.
So the question is should one be a prereq of the other. My impression is no, because the differences between the feats are relatively minor compared to what another feat could get a character at level 6 or higher. What the two feats provides us is two different ways characters could access a similar ability. Ones easy to achieve, the other has a more powerful effect (but not so much more powerful that it would require two feats to learn)
Sorry to resurrect the thread, but I'm presently building a character who might make use of these feat, but I can't find anything in the FAQ about despite the question being marked as answered.
Could anyone tell me where the answer is?
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
I'm going to bump this as well, because I just looked at the Ultimate Combat FAQ page and the question is NOT answered in the FAQ, in spite of the note that says otherwise in the OP.
The only thing I did find was this post from someone who apparently wrote the feats, even though he doesn't have a contributor tag. And that took some searching to find.
This is extremely important, as I need to know to build a Pathfinder version of Planescape: Torment's Annah and I think it would be important for it, and nothing is more important than Annah. Even though I will never actually get to play the build, it's still important I get it right.
DQ is insane and you can ignore her "urgency," but it would be nice to see this in the FAQ since the post says it's supposed to be. :) Thank you.
One of my friends has an interpretation of the difference between the two that I understand:
Two-Weapon Feint allows the NEXT attack you make to get the advantages of the feint.
Once you hit a BAB of +6, you'll probably have the option of two base attacks, and two offhand attacks. So Improved Two-Weapon Feint would let you drop the first attackas a feint, and then have another main attack and two offhand attack to take advantage of them being flat-footed.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ANSWERED IN FAQ!? I cannot find it either in the FAQ or the errata.
My player and I came here looking for answers and we get snubbed!? What the hell Paizo!?
I would also like to know if Two-Weapon Feint is a requirement for Improved Two-Weapon feint.
It would be great if it isn't because that 13 int and combat expertise (that I don't want and will never use) is already a horrible enough requirement. (also the fact that you need to waste skill points in bluff, that you will likely only ever use to feint, possibly have a high CHA to help, AND have a monstrous DEX requiremnt)
I plan to use the Slayer in PFS, and full BAB mixed with sneak attack and an insane amount of bonus feats makes improved two-weapon feint a very appealing feat to have. There's already so much that you need that destroys your character that needing Two-Weapon Feint (which was long ago pointed out as being potentially worse than Improved Feint) that requiring it is an awful awful thing.
Grunyar Dankstone wrote: One of my friends has an interpretation of the difference between the two that I understand:
Two-Weapon Feint allows the NEXT attack you make to get the advantages of the feint.
Once you hit a BAB of +6, you'll probably have the option of two base attacks, and two offhand attacks. So Improved Two-Weapon Feint would let you drop the first attackas a feint, and then have another main attack and two offhand attack to take advantage of them being flat-footed.
RAW 2 weapon fighting only negates some of the penalties of TWF. Having a weapon in each hand by RAW only allows for 1 extra attack per round "You can fight with a weapon wielded in each of your hands. You can make one extra attack each round with the secondary weapon." IE: at +6/+1 You get 1 primary hand swing at +6, 1 offhand swing at +6, then 1 primary swing at +1. Even late in the game when you have 4 iterative attacks you only get 1 bonus attack from swinging with 2 weapons.
akrippler wrote: Grunyar Dankstone wrote: One of my friends has an interpretation of the difference between the two that I understand:
Two-Weapon Feint allows the NEXT attack you make to get the advantages of the feint.
Once you hit a BAB of +6, you'll probably have the option of two base attacks, and two offhand attacks. So Improved Two-Weapon Feint would let you drop the first attackas a feint, and then have another main attack and two offhand attack to take advantage of them being flat-footed.
RAW 2 weapon fighting only negates some of the penalties of TWF. Having a weapon in each hand by RAW only allows for 1 extra attack per round "You can fight with a weapon wielded in each of your hands. You can make one extra attack each round with the secondary weapon." IE: at +6/+1 You get 1 primary hand swing at +6, 1 offhand swing at +6, then 1 primary swing at +1. Even late in the game when you have 4 iterative attacks you only get 1 bonus attack from swinging with 2 weapons.
Improved Two-Weapon feint has Improved Two-weapon fighting as a requirement, so you would have two offhand attacks when you use it. So +6/+1/+1 against a flat footed opponent.
Two-Weapon Feint makes them FF against your next attack, Improved Two-Weapon Feint makes them FF until the end of your turn.
The function of the feats isn't the importance of this thread, what is important is if Improved TW feint does or does not require you to have TW feint in order to take it. It is not listed in the requirements for the feat, and it would be horrible if it was in fact required because as was pointed out previously TW Feint is a horrible feat.
Sorry for the late reply on this, but I just saw it.
Here's a link to where, supposedly, one of the Pathfinder authors, Benjamin Bruck, who apparently wrote the Feat, states that, "Yeah, Improved Two-Weapon Feint should definitely have Two-Weapon Feint as a prereq."
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2oqpa?Ultimate-Combat-Improved-TwoWeapon-Feint# 4
I hope that clears things up.
Recent threads in Rules Questions
|
