Alright, so here's the situation:
Myself and three of my friends (one of whom is assuming the role of DM) are about to kick off a new campaign. In past campaigns, we've each had free reign to create as many characters as we needed since we have such a small group. In this way, we've been able to shore up any inadequacies in our party by one or more of us taking multiple characters on each adventure (i.e. - one of my buddies takes in his rogue and ranger, the other takes in his cleric and big dumb fighter and I take in my spellcaster). In this way we make sure we have all our bases covered.
This time, we're doing it a little bit differently. Our DM wants each of us to create only one character and stick with him for the entirety of the campaign. I'm totally on board with the idea but I immediately saw the flaw in this plan. If there are only three of us, how will we meet all the requirements of the "standard adventuring party"?
Now, in my estimation, that should typically consist of, at a minimum: tank, skill monkey, spellcaster and healer. Our main limitation is that we really only have two of the three party slots to play around with. One of my friends is dead set on playing a fighter and has no interest in functional multi-classing. Also, nobody really wants to be a dedicated spellcaster.
So, here are my questions:
- Are there any roles I've neglected above?
- What are some ways to fill multiple roles with a single character?
- Has anyone else been a part of a similar situation in one of their campaigns? How did you get around the obvious problems?
- a Vivisectionist/Rogue (Sniper) mash up focused on poisoning and stealth. The extracts could possibly alleviate a marginal amount of our spellcasting deficiency and easily cover our 'skill monkey' requirement.
- A gish build geared toward either Eldritch Knight or Dragon Disciple. Slightly less attractive than the above build due to the aforementioned party member's choice.
Oh, and forgot to mention sooner, we are able to use anything from the CRB, APG, UM or UC.
Thanks in advance for your help guys.
Try to get your friend to go lore warden, if he's dead set on fighter - that will help with some knowledge skills. Skill monkey can be done by one of the other roles, as can healer, aside from in-combat healing (bard/ranger/whatever with wand of CLW?).
Actually, if no one wants to be a dedicated spellcaster, that's going to help you for this. Summoner can fill multiple roles easily with the eidolon, bard and inquisitor can both be melee, skills, and casting all at once (not in one turn, but in one character), alchemist can do similar...I really don't think you'll have any problems. Actually a fighter/bard/inquisitor/summoner party would be...pretty nasty, if built right. <_<
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Some of the more versatile classes/archetypes:
Urban Ranger is a bruiser and thief in one.
Inquisitor really is a jack of all trades, and always has something he can do to anything. Monster lore is a huge help)
Oracle is a party face and healer, and depending on the mystery can fill a ton of other roles.
Druids are about as versatile as you can get.
Summoner is basically two characters.
Clerics aren't just healers.
Try to get your friend to go lore warden, if he's dead set on fighter - that will help with some knowledge skills. Skill monkey can be done by one of the other roles, as can healer, aside from in-combat healing (bard/ranger/whatever with wand of CLW?).
Actually, if no one wants to be a dedicated spellcaster, that's going to help you for this. Summoner can fill multiple roles easily with the eidolon, bard and inquisitor can both be melee, skills, and casting all at once (not in one turn, but in one character), alchemist can do similar...I really don't think you'll have any problems. Actually a fighter/bard/inquisitor/summoner party would be...pretty nasty, if built right. <_<
Are you suggesting a multi-class character then? I know at the start of the post I said there are four in our group, but one of them is the DM. So we only have three spots to play with. I'll try pitching the idea of Lore Warden to our fighter. Which book is that in?
it could be dificult without full spellcasters. I wold reommend a stealthy group focused in killing the big enemy and avoid non esential combats.
I like the idea of vivisecsionits, you could be the UMD guy.
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'm picturing this guy as being all about stealth. Getting in position unnoticed, hitting the main enemy hard, and then retreating back to the shadows. poison + ranged sneak attack = win.
I realize that an alchemist isn't going to pack the same battlefield control punch as a dedicated caster (read: no punch at all), but I believe he can do the party buffing job servicably well, and that's a start.
I think we're rolling for stats (despite my pleas to get with the program and do a point buy), so here's hoping I roll a decent CHA score for UMD. Fingers crossed.
Some of the more versatile classes/archetypes:
Urban Ranger is a bruiser and thief in one.
Inquisitor really is a jack of all trades, and always has something he can do to anything. Monster lore is a huge help)
Oracle is a party face and healer, and depending on the mystery can fill a ton of other roles.
Druids are about as versatile as you can get.
Summoner is basically two characters.
Clerics aren't just healers.
I really like the idea of an inquisitor, but I am pretty ignorant regarding the strengths of the class. I might be able to talk my undecided friend into this type of character, what are the class's biggest strengths in your opinion?
Are you suggesting a multi-class character then? I know at the start of the post I said there are four in our group, but one of them is the DM. So we only have three spots to play with. I'll try pitching the idea of Lore Warden to our fighter. Which book is that in?
Ah, right, right, sorry. Well, dropping one of them would be fine too. I'd definitely suggest a summoner, if you have someone that's interested, because you're basically playing two characters that way, you and the eidolon (or more if you go master summoner). But any combination of summoner, inquisitor, bard, and fighter will be fine - if you want more skills, pair bard and inquisitor with the fighter instead, if you want more melee damage, go summoner and bard, if you want more ranged damage, go bard and inquisitor and go sound striker with your bard.
Alchemist would be good as well, for any of them really, if you're leaning that way, just that (as far as I know anyway - I've never played an alchemist) you'd have a bit more trouble buffing multiple people, whereas a bard hits everyone, inquisitor spells can, and the summoner you get two actions with so not only do your spells hit everyone, you still get to smack things (and get haste as a 2nd lvl spell to boot, among others).
This time, we're doing it a little bit differently. Our DM wants each of us to create only one character and stick with him for the entirety of the campaign. I'm totally on board with the idea but I immediately saw the flaw in this plan. If there are only three of us, how will we meet all the requirements of the "standard adventuring party"?
Now, in my estimation, that should typically consist of, at a minimum: tank, skill monkey, spellcaster and healer. Our main limitation is that we really only have two of the three party slots to play around with. One of my friends is dead set on playing a fighter and has no interest in functional multi-classing. Also, nobody really wants to be a dedicated spellcaster.
Hm. That's a shame because it really limits the rest of the party. Fighters are very specialised, and in a three-man party you need less specialised characters. If he went paladin or ranger he could also fulfil the healer role, and that would give you and the other player more scope.
Have you considered Gestalt characters? That would allow you all to add more strings to your bows without giving up on concepts.
Otherwise...Witch makes a decent healer+caster option, but if you don't want to do a full caster it's out.
You will then need to look at the 2/3 casters: Bard, Inquisitor, Magus, Summoner. Summoner is more like a full caster, but Bard can do the healing thing and with a few traits can fill the trapspringer role as well as being an arcane caster.
My honest opinion, though? Play the character you want to play. You are going to run this character a long time, no point doing it if you do not really want to play that character.
Recommendations for a small adventuring party?
Thought you meant it's a group like I'm in now: two gnomes, a halfing and a dwarf :-)
Paladin, if your group's lawful enough. Get heals, can hold their own in melee and high charisma character, with Diplomacy as a class skill, so they can interact with people effectively.
Covers some areas other than a straight up fighter can, but can do decent damage in a fight.
If you want to multi-class look at the Holy Vindicator or Divine Scion. Both can advance cleric levels, while allowing for a combo between cleric and martial classes.
A bard would help as an arcane caster with some heals. An oracle could fit as a blaster with heals as well. Any of the divine casters can be decent at melee or casting and as such depending on the build can fill a few roles. Also if you want to play a gish magus can help with that from level 1. Also a summoner could introduce a caster and a pet that can mix it up.
Have you considered Gestalt characters? That would allow you all to add more strings to your bows without giving up on concepts.
I'm not familiar with gestalt characters? Any chance you can give me a quick down and dirty on what they're about?
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I really like the idea of an inquisitor, but I am pretty ignorant regarding the strengths of the class. I might be able to talk my undecided friend into this type of character, what are the class's biggest strengths in your opinion?
With an inquisitor, you will always be useful. Particularly once you get bane at 5th level.
You generally go first (Add wis to init) you generally know what you are fighting (Add wis to knowledge to ID creature weaknesses) and you can choose the right judgement or bane for each thing you are fighting.
Add to that solid secondary healer with limited domain access and 6 skill points a level and you are versatile without being overshadowed.
One of my favorite classes. Plays much smoother than it reads (unlike some other APG classes...)
Have you considered Gestalt characters? That would allow you all to add more strings to your bows without giving up on concepts.I'm not familiar with gestalt characters? Any chance you can give me a quick down and dirty on what they're about?
It's from Unearthed Arcana. Basically, you take any two classes and read along the level you level to for both of them. For any two features they have in common, take the best. Then add the rest together. That's what your character gets.
So for example a fighter|wizard gestalt would get full BAB, d10 hit dice, good Fort saves, good Will saves, bonus fighter feats, weapon training, armour training etc as well as spells of the wizard, wizard bonus feats, wizard abilities for school etc.
Prestige classes have to be excluded if they combine traits from two classes, but any of the base classes can be gestalted with any other base class. You can even combine similar classes to 'double' their abilities (witch|wizard would get the spells for both classes and the features too).
They are good for small parties because you get to cover all the bases much easier.
Not sure what the GM will have in mind for the Campaign Theme. I've always wanted to try a barbarian, druid, and ranger combo. We did some play-testing to learn the PF system back in the day. 4th level, 8th, 12th level, to get a feel for how the characters compared to 3.5. The barbarian, ranger, and druid combination was quite a sight to behold. I'm sure you could tweak them with archetypes, but getting to specialized could really hurt you in the long run. Would help if the GM gave you some specifics to what kind of game he is wanting to run. A small stealther group of 3 would be interesting as well. Inquistor, ranger, rogue, and/or bard would be interesting to see. Just my 2cp worth.
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My best suggestions:
1: Make sure all the players understand they will have to fill 2 roles min. No exceptions. If you do not follow this rule in a small party it makes things very very hard. The larger the force the more specialized you can be. The smaller the force the more cross role coverage you need.
2: Make sure you understand what you can do with out. Along with what you must have. You can make do with out a full caster(Arcane, or Divine). You must have some one that can heal(The more that can do this the better in a small group). You need ever one to be effective in combat. You want but do not need a party face. You want but do not need some one for traps. You want but do not need a skill focused character(This is almost a need).
My top picks for a 3 person team.
Oracle : Mystery Battle : Party Face, Melee/Range Combat, Divine Casting Support.
Bard : Knowlage Skills, Melee/Range Combat, Party Buffing, Arcane Casting Support.
Ranger(XX)/Rogue(2) : Melee/Range Combat, Skills Traps/Outdoor,
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OK 3 man party that fills 4 roles:
Option 1: No Tank. A druid can fill both the divine caster role as well as the tank role by using an animal companion. This adds needed beef to a 3 man party.
Option 2: No Devoted Healer. In my last adventuring party, containing 6 players, we had neither a healer nor a tank. I was the only undecided character at that time, so I went with a Paladin. This works primarily because as a Paladin you can use your lay on hands ability to heal yourself as a swift action, and you are the one taking most of the hits anyway. We found that this worked well.
Option 3: No Skill Monkey. If each member of the party can agree that no one dumps int, then you will have plenty of skills, just don't double up on anything, unless you all three want to be really stealthy as a party or something.
Option 4: No Devoted Spellcaster. I actually think this group is easiest to pull off. A spell caster is supposed to do either A. Big damage, or B. Deal with situations creatively in such a way as to make another role less than useful. In other words, A spellcaster fills the gaps and amplifies other party members. So if this is what you are missing, just play smart and don't worry about it, but be prepared to deal with magic. In my experience if you are without an arcane caster, a Cleric who prepares buff spells can fill the role nicely, partially because there is no "Squishy" part of the team as an easy target.
Given the Choice of how to go about this I believe the following party would do fine:
1, Fighter: This guy's job is to hold the front line, and cover knowledge skills that he can. Focus on Engineering/Dungeouneering.
2. Ranger: Bow rangers tend to have greatest damage, and range will force enemies to focus on the Fighter. Focus on stealth, and with all those skills look to focus in Knowledge Nature and Geography.
3. Cleric: Don't skimp on Charisma. You'll not be going for high DC's on your spell saves so maybe don't have a great wisdom, 14 or so will do nicely. Prepare mass Buff Spells, Bless is a great one up front. Focus on Diplomacy, and play up the "Face" role here. Use those channels to heal outside of combat, and be sure to use a shield to get AC up.
Now with this configuration the damage is provided by a Bow ranger will provide the ranged Damage necessary, while the fighter is capable of holding his own up front. Alternatively for storyline purposes the ranger could be replaced with an Inquisitor and the Fighter with a Paladin, then you have a religious group that could do missions from a Church <Preferably Sarenrae or Pharasma,>
Here's what you do:
Halfling Master Summoner with a small eidolon tricked out as a scout and skill monkey/rogue. That will give you frontliners, a rogue, a scout, a buffer and a battlefield controller.
Human Bard (Lotus Geisha) focusing on healing and enchantment spells. There's your group's 'face', healer, controller and another buffer. After 8th or so go into Arcane Archer to also offer effective ranged damage in support.
Human or Half-Orc Dragon Disciple (I reccomend Paladin/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple with the Orcish bloodline from the Eldritch heritage feat line). This will give you a true tank-mage capable of serving as your primary front-line fighter AND the group's blaster depending on what the situation calls for.
Might not be exactly what you're looking for, but it covers all the bases and is as bad-@ss a 3-man party as you're going to find.
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Here's my recommended 3 man party:
Cavalier and combat mount (I like halfling riding an axe beak or Roc)
Druid and combat companion (almost nothing beats a big cat)
Summoner and Eidolon (don't get fancy with archetypes you want two characters)
Now you have a 6 person party, cavalier covers tank, Druid covers healing (companion covers striking), summoner covers arcane and battlefield control and with the right skill choices an Eidolon can find traps (use Detect Magic). I guarantee you that any adventure written for 4 PCs can be run as written for this party with no adjustments.
Wow guys these are some really awesome recommendations. I'll check in with my party tomorrow to see what their thoughts are after a day to collect their thoughts.
@dabbler & ferinus - As far as the gestalt recommendation goes, I'd have to say that probably won't fly. A cool idea, but our DM is pretty serious about making things 'realistic' and cherrypicking the best parts of two classes would undoubtedly p-ss him off.
@Mercurial - I've always been enamored with the dragon disciple and I've seen a few of your builds you've posted on other threads. Pretty sweet man. I'm definitely considering that as a strong option.
@Calagnar - Ideally, everyone will be cool with wearing mutliple hats, but we'll see. I tend to agree that everyone will need to be able to hold their own in melee. With so few of us, it will be tough to avoid combat in situations where we're outnumbered...which will happen often I suspect.
@Altus - That's some really useful information. As it stands now, I'm thinking of pitching the idea of a paladin/inquisitor/something group to my buddies. We'll see how receptive they are to it.
@dudemeister (and pretty much everyone else, incidentally) - Summoner keeps coming up as a recommendation and I have to admit it is the single class in PF that I know the least about. I always glossed over it because the concept seemed kind of silly to me. Apparently I need to give that class a closer look.
A knight (fighter or paladin) and his herald (bard). The campaign would be tailored with less deadly combat and more puzzles, mysteries, and cinematic action.
The knight may want to multiclass to diversify skills.
Alright, so it looks like one of my friends is on board with the idea of playing an inquisitor.
I am going to see if I can convince the other guy (the one settled on fighter) to consider Paladin. He played a paladin in our last campaign so he might be burnt out on it, I dunno.
I myself am still on the fence about whether to play a DD, or the vivisectionist/sniper guy I mentioned further up the thread.
Any rrcommendations or opinions on the survivability of a group consisting of these types of characters?
Any rrcommendations on how to build these guys so they can fill as many of the aforementioned roles as possible? (Specific archtypes, feats, gear, etc.)
I see i messep up, i was talking about
Conversion Inquisition
Deities: Any deity.Granted Powers:
Charm of Wisdom (Ex): You use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Charisma modifier when making Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks.
Thanks man. That's pretty much exactly what we're looking for. None of us have ever played an inquisitor before so this should be an interesting process. Sounds like the inquisition you suggested is a must along with a guided weapon to reduce the MAD problem. Anything else we can do to make a solid party face/striker/secondary healer?
I'd go with:
Trapper Ranger
Druid
Summoner
You have your fighter with the ranger, you have the rogue with the trapper, you have the healing with the druid, you have the arcane with the summoner, and you have two more front line fighters with the animal companion and the eidolon.
Hybrids and gishes are your friend.
I suggest a master summoner, an archer bard, and a switch hitter alchemist.
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Alright, so it looks like one of my friends is on board with the idea of playing an inquisitor.
I am going to see if I can convince the other guy (the one settled on fighter) to consider Paladin. He played a paladin in our last campaign so he might be burnt out on it, I dunno.
I myself am still on the fence about whether to play a DD, or the vivisectionist/sniper guy I mentioned further up the thread.
Any rrcommendations or opinions on the survivability of a group consisting of these types of characters?
Any rrcommendations on how to build these guys so they can fill as many of the aforementioned roles as possible? (Specific archtypes, feats, gear, etc.)
Bard will fill the gaps in the party best.
Inquisitor : Melee/Range Combat, Divine Caster SupportPaladin : Melee/Range Combat, Party Face, Divine Caster Support
Bard : Melee/Range Combat, Party Buffing, Arcane Caster Support, knowlage skill, Party Face
Infiltrator Inquisitor with the conversion inquisition gets double wisdom to bluff and diplomacy.
...and is a scary, scary beast. I get scared of PCs with Diplomacy/Bluff over +10 at level 1. >.<
If there are only three of us, how will we meet all the requirements of the "standard adventuring party"?
It depends on the game- I once ran a 3.5 campaign (from level 1 to 15 for most players, two went on to level 25) where the starting group was:
Human Rogue (crossbow sniper/traditional trap bloke)
Halfling Rogue (pirate- currently Hurricane King in my world incidently)
Human Rogue (went on to become bard/duelist)
Lizardfolk Ninja (straight up)
Human Wizard (did nothing till level 5 then 'lightning balled' everything).
I didn't let the group discuss characters beforehand hence the rogue-heavy line up but it was the best and longest running campaign our group ever had (we've been gaming together for ~10 years). I just designed the adventures to allow for their strengths and weaknesses. There was a Kobold lair where they managed to cause an ambush allowing for 4 sneak attacks per round on each Kobold at level 1- it was hilarious. And watching them run from the things which caused Fort saves was too.
Have you considered Gestalt characters? That would allow you all to add more strings to your bows without giving up on concepts.
If you're playing in a homebrew game, the GM can account for your group's abilities. If not then Gestalt is the way to go.
I'd go with:
Paladin 2/Sorcerer X/Dragon Disciple Y--for front line, secondary healing and arcane casting.
Druid with animal companion--front line, secondary healing, primary divine casting.
Ranged ranger or inquistor.
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I'm running the carrion crown AP for 3 people right now. The party consists of a barbarian, a ninja who took a couple levels of cleric for in game flavor purposes, and a witch. They're just about to end the second book and have been doing just fine. It's a little tough at times, but they haven't had a single death. I've always been in the mind set of "if you play smart you can overcome most anything" and these 3 players reassure me of that in how well they overcome the odds.
Just play whatever you like, the GM should take care that you have a fair chance. That's how we did it over the last years. When we didn't have a rogue, the GMs took care that there weren't any or too many traps, or that we could somehow solve or ship around the problems we encountered. (But mind: we have not played a non-self-made adventure (how do you call that?) for the last 20 years or so...)
Anyway, we usually agree on having a tank and a healer.
To increase your team's action economy, I'd recommend the other two classes that get animal companions (druid, ranger, certain oracles, etc.) and the summoner. Druids are just great all around. Consider a snake in particular.