Mystic Theurge Question

[Insacrum]

If a class lists that they are considered both an arcane caster, as well as a divine caster, would a mystic theurge be allowed to grant both +1 spell casting bonuses at each level to that 1 class?

[Ravingdork]

What class does that though?

[ShadowcatX]

Super Genius Games' Magister (or Magus) class.

[Lord Twig]

It sounds like you are trying to stack it so that every level of Mystic Theurge would add two levels to one class. I suppose if you really tried to ignore the intent you could read it that way. As a GM I could also read it as saying that it adds to either an Arcane OR a Divine class. A class that is both would obviously not qualify because it is not just one of them. ;-)

Your game of course and you can run it any way you like, but stacking the levels would break things pretty seriously.

[Cheapy]

If you have a question about the magus / magister, ask it here.

[ShadowcatX]

Lord Twig wrote:

It sounds like you are trying to stack it so that every level of Mystic Theurge would add two levels to one class. I suppose if you really tried to ignore the intent you could read it that way. As a GM I could also read it as saying that it adds to either an Arcane OR a Divine class. A class that is both would obviously not qualify because it is not just one of them. ;-)

Your game of course and you can run it any way you like, but stacking the levels would break things pretty seriously.

Actually, you can't interpret it like that without adding text that isn't there, like the word "or" or the word "only". The magister is an arcane casting class, it qualifies for the +1 / level there. The magister is also a divine casting class and qualifies there. Of course, as DM you can change things however you wish, its just not RAW when you do.

But to answer your unasked question, I'm the one who brought this to the O.P.'s attention as more of a thought experiment than as a build I mean to play or to be played.

Cheapy wrote:

If you have a question about the magus / magister, ask it here.

The question here isn't actually about the magister though, its more about mystic theurge. It just needs the magister to get into mystic theurge.

[Sebastian]

The rule wasn't crafted with a dual arcane/divine caster in mind. RAW doesn't really come into play. It was the 3pp's job to make it clear, not Pathfinder's.

[ShadowcatX]

Is there really no other way to get arcane and divine casting in the same class? I couldn't think of any off hand, but I figured there might be ways I didn't know about, and magister worked.

[cartmanbeck]

ShadowcatX wrote:

Is there really no other way to get arcane and divine casting in the same class? I couldn't think of any off hand, but I figured there might be ways I didn't know about, and magister worked.

I think it's really meant to be that way. If you truly got arcane and divine casting both from a single class, you'd have two different magic systems to deal with. When you multiclass arcane and divine, you have two different magic systems to deal with.

I think situations like this are exactly why there are rules for multiclassing. No single base class was ever meant to be a divine and arcane caster both. Some arcane casters have bits of divine magic available to them (witch has cure spells, oracle has some more arcane-ish spells and abilities) but they still rely on either one or the other.

Mystic Theurge was obviously written to increase the level of spellcasting that you receive with an arcane class and a divine class SEPERATELY, not some class that is a bastardization of both. Sorry, but Sebastian is right on this one, trying to suggest that it would serve a dual-purpose in increasing both types of spellcasting in the case of this 3pp Magus is just ridiculous.

[wraithstrike]

ShadowcatX wrote:

Is there really no other way to get arcane and divine casting in the same class? I couldn't think of any off hand, but I figured there might be ways I didn't know about, and magister worked.

Nope. The bard and witch have both spells from the cleric and wizard spell list, but they are considered to be arcane. The MT was designed to boost 2 different classes, not double dip with one class that had both features.

[Sebastian]

Also, for whatever it's worth, the gestalt rules specifically note that prestige classes like the Mystic Theurge do not work under that system because they are intended to integrate two separate classes without synergy. Obviously, the gestalt rules aren't RAW, but they do reflect the design intent behind classes such as the Mystic Theurge.

[Ross Byers]

I removed some posts. Serenity, folks.

[spalding]

Ross Byers wrote:

I removed some posts. Serenity, folks.

Good movie, but why did they have to kill Shepard and Wash?

[Ross Byers]

Abraham spalding wrote:

Ross Byers wrote:

I removed some posts. Serenity, folks.

Good movie, but why did they have to kill Shepard and Wash?

I was thinking more Costanza than Whedon.

[spalding]

Ross Byers wrote:

Abraham spalding wrote:

Ross Byers wrote:

I removed some posts. Serenity, folks.

Good movie, but why did they have to kill Shepard and Wash?

I was thinking more Costanza than Whedon.

Costanza? Is that like Vera?

[wraithstrike]

Quote:

If want you want RAI, then definitely no you can't take one level of Mystic Theurge and add two casting levels to the magister class.....

Owen K. C. Stephens--Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games

[LazarX]

Insacrum wrote:

If a class lists that they are considered both an arcane caster, as well as a divine caster, would a mystic theurge be allowed to grant both +1 spell casting bonuses at each level to that 1 class?

Nice try on the cheese attempt. But no. Just by gaining that one level of magister casting level, you'd already be getting the "raise" to both arcane and divine.

If you can sneak it past your GM,more power to you. But I'm awake today.

[ShadowcatX]

LazarX wrote:

Insacrum wrote:

If a class lists that they are considered both an arcane caster, as well as a divine caster, would a mystic theurge be allowed to grant both +1 spell casting bonuses at each level to that 1 class?

Nice try on the cheese attempt. But no. Just by gaining that one level of magister casting level, you'd already be getting the "raise" to both arcane and divine.

If you can sneak it past your GM,more power to you. But I'm awake today.

To clarify Insacrum and I are co-GMs are in a game. I made a list of a few potentially broken class combinations and asked what we would do if something like that came up. This was one of those class combinations. Its not anything anyone is trying to sneak by a GM, it was a thought experiment. (And apparently a lightning rod.)

And thank you wraith strike. :)

[Bobson]

Given the description of the book says "A magus is considered both an arcane and divine spellcaster (and can count as either for purposes of requirements and prerequisites)," I'd say that you could apply either the arcane boost or the divine boost from a mystic theruge level, but not both. So if you're a wizard 3/cleric 3/magister 1, and you take three levels of theruge, one level could boost wizard/magister, one could boost wizard/cleric, and one could boost cleric/magister, resulting in effective levels of 5/5/3 at 10th character level.

Obviously, if the actual class text differs from the text in the book description, that's not necessarily valid. But mechanically, it works.