I'm playing with some various builds to make a front line fighter (not necessarily of the fighter class), and am curious what kind of damage output they should be aspiring to. I've built a little calculator to figure out average damage based on percentage to hit and am using a 40 AC as my target, I'm assuming buff spells like haste and enlarge are in effect as well as a +5 keened weapon and a +6 belt of giant strength. my latest creation averages around 250 pts of dmg in a round and I've built others in the same vein, but i feel that might be low...
It's intended to be optimized, so any thoughts, recommendations, or comparisons would be a big help, thanks
Post the build. :)
I figure you should be able to one round a balor or pit fiend. If it is not dead then it should be close to being dead. There is not way it should live through 2 full attacks.
According to the chart in the Bestiaries a "typical" CR 20 monster has an AC of 36 and 370 hp. A "typical" CR 23 monster has an AC of 40 and 480 hp. So, assuming your numbers are correct, you'll eliminate either of these critters in 2 rounds.
Whether or not that's sufficient for your group's playstyle isn't something I can answer for you. :-)
Ok I'll preface this by just saying it's a weird build, just awkward in nature and a multiclassing nightmare, so yeah...
Race: Human
Classes:
Unbreakable Fighter 1
Titan Mauler Barbarian 12 (using RAI)
Draconic Sorcerer 1
Dragon Disciple 4
Ragechemist Alchemist 2
Base Stats (25 pt build, it's intended to be an epic campaign)
STR 24 (+2 from Human ,+5 from Ability increases)
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 11
WIS 12
CHA 12
Greater Rage, Dragon Disciple, and Rage Mutagen net a bonus of 16 to STR, bringing that to a temporary 40, Enlarge Person bumps it to 42 and Belt of Giant Strength +6 brings us to 48.
He wields a Huge +5 Keen Greatsword via the Massive Weapons class ability of the Titan Mauler (RAI, not RAW) which will increase to Gargantuan when Enlarge Person is cast. My GM and I have deduced that this does 7d6 of damage (homeruled, as weapon size chart doesn't go up this high and natural weapon progression conflicts with what weapon sizes Paizo has written stuff for) for an average base weapon dmg of 24.5
BAB is 17 which leads to an iterative 41/36/31/26, but weapon focus, haste, power attack, and furious focus changes that to 42/38/33/28/23
Average dmg when power attack, str, and quality of weapon taken into account is 69.5 on a single non-critical hit
Against a AC 40, calculating percentages to hit and percentages to crit I'm looking at an average of 258 pts of dmg per round
If I UMD a wand of "lead blades" to increase the weapon dmg another step to 8d8(again homeruled by GM) that means avg base weapon dmg of 36, avg non critical hit of 81, and avg single round damage of 300.
I recognize that this build has limitation and a strong chance of going comatose from INT damage from the ragemutagen, but he does take the Preserve Organs discovery to help mitigate that from happening too quickly via a crit or sneak attack, and has a cloak of resistance to up his Will save so he can reliably make the DC 15 whenever he takes damage while using the mutagen.
A lot of feat slots are still on the table, as is a nice chunk of change to be spent on magical items
Fighter comes to ~300, Magus as well if NOVAing, Paladin can get up to ~400 and some really cool builds like a well build PalaSorc/DD/FTR gets up to 600 if build poperly - assuming one round of buffing each.
Barbarian builds get close to 300 most of the time, archer bbuilds can get up to 400 (ranger/pala) w/ smite/focus(guide), Zen Archers and the like a little bit less (~300+).
Of course those are really vague numbers that just come out of my experience and there are several options to make builds that differ drastically, but that's just what I'd say when it comes to average min/max builds of those classes.
Consider investing in a Giant Hide armor. On top of becoming Huge for extra weapon damage, you will get +8 str (instead of +2 for enlarge), +6 con, and +6 NA (and some other stuff).
For greatsword weapon damage, my calculations are:
M = 2d6
L = 3d6 (eq. 2d8)
H = 4d6
G = 6d6
C = 8d6
C+ = 12d6 (If Lead blades is allowed to affect a colossal weapon. Alternatively It could double damage like Strong Jaw, but I would be more comfortable with specified rules to make that suggestion).
BTW, you seem to have miscalculated your average damage on a non-crit hit: 24.5(weapon) + 28.5 (str) + 15 (PA) + 5 (enhancement) = 73.
The giant-hide armor would add +5 damage for str, and +X for weapon size increase.
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Funny how all these builds would solo CR20 monsters in one round.
"So, and then we killed 10 Balors in 12 seconds. I don't know what's the big fuss about them..."
Giant Hide Armor is a nice touch, I'll definitely make that adjustment, and you were also correct on PA, I'll adjust to hit and damage accordingly.
My GM is cool with lead blades affecting a colossal weapons, but by his table this becomes a 12d8.
All that leaves him with:
a STR of 58,
an avg non crit of 110,
and an avg dpr of 482.
Wow what a difference one piece of armor makes
@Magnuskn, my GM knows we optimize so he adjusts his monsters accordingly without raising their CR at all, gives them all max hit points and plays them rather viciously.
Keep the suggestions and comparisons coming please
Giant Hide Armor is a nice touch, I'll definitely make that adjustment, and you were also correct on PA, I'll adjust to hit and damage accordingly.
My GM is cool with lead blades affecting a colossal weapons, but by his table this becomes a 12d8.
All that leaves him with:
a STR of 58,
an avg non crit of 110,
and an avg dpr of 482.Wow what a difference one piece of armor makes
@Magnuskn, my GM knows we optimize so he adjusts his monsters accordingly without raising their CR at all, gives them all max hit points and plays them rather viciously.
Keep the suggestions and comparisons coming please
You might not have the feats for it, but with that weapon damage it would be intriguing to take the Vital Strike chain and Furious Finish to be able to deal 440 on a single attack :-)
Vital strike wont ever help doing 400+ on a single attack on average.
edit: when using giant hide it wont let you use your weapons without penalty
Funny how all these builds would solo CR20 monsters in one round.
"So, and then we killed 10 Balors in 12 seconds. I don't know what's the big fuss about them..."
If you look at it solely as a melee contest, yeah. Those Balors have a host of potent spell-like abilities including Blasphemy and have the whole "explode when killed" thing...
Vital strike wont ever help doing 400+ on a single attack on average.
The furious finish feat makes that possible. When raging, you make an attack using vital strike, that deal the maximum damage on the damage dice. Afterwards the rage ends, making you fatigued.
Druid 16 / Barbarian 4?
Feats: Greater Vital Strike, Furious Finish, Improved Natural Attack (tail).
Wildshaped into a Stegosaurus.
Enlarged (via Animal Growth or Enlarge Person, depending on if polymorph changes your type or not)
Strong Jaw spell cast.
Base weapon damage 4d6.
6d6 after INA feat.
8d6 after enlargement.
8d6-->12d6-->16d6 after Strong Jaw.
16d6+ 3*(16d6) with Greater Vital Strike. Furious Finish to max the damage. Total damage = 384, before strength or other factors.
A Synthesist Summoner that can get a hit of Strongjaw and multiclassed w/ Barb could probably take that higher.
The furious finish feat makes that possible. When raging, you make an attack using vital strike, that deal the maximum damage on the damage dice. Afterwards the rage ends, making you fatigued.Vital strike wont ever help doing 400+ on a single attack on average.
If you have 60 as static bonus to damage you would need 380 out of dice - thats 63d6 if they are maximized... how are you doing that?
Funny how all these builds would solo CR20 monsters in one round.
"So, and then we killed 10 Balors in 12 seconds. I don't know what's the big fuss about them..."
Heh - they've clearly never fought against MY Balor's - the ones who can fly, cast Greater Dispel Magic and Dominate at will, are beyond genius level intelligence and have legions of demons at their command.
What do you mean giant hide won't let me use my weapons without penalty?
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Heh - they've clearly never fought against MY Balor's - the ones who can fly, cast Greater Dispel Magic and Dominate at will, are beyond genius level intelligence and have legions of demons at their command.Funny how all these builds would solo CR20 monsters in one round.
"So, and then we killed 10 Balors in 12 seconds. I don't know what's the big fuss about them..."
...and are large enough to knock the PC's back (reducing the number of attacks from said PC's). We learned that fighting Balors near lava pits is always a fatal mistake...
What do you mean giant hide won't let me use my weapons without penalty?
It wont increase the size of your weapons.
Also furious finish is a one off, I'm looking for a more consistent stream of damage, but I like the idea as a last ditch thing
What do you mean giant hide won't let me use my weapons without penalty?It wont increase the size of your weapons.
but it's a size increase which means all your gear adjusts to fit otherwise if it were just a polymorph effect it would stack with enlarge person wouldn't it?
Also furious finish is a one off, I'm looking for a more consistent stream of damage, but I like the idea as a last ditch thing
Go ragecycling - but i still dont think its really worth it... well... maybe...
And where is stated that size-bonuses always increase weapon-size?
It's just odd to think otherwise, I mean the armor and anything else I'm wearing increase without that being directly stated in the giant form 2 description, why would this size increase differ from any other?
just found the RAW supporting the weapon size adjustment
"Transmutation
Transmutation spells change the properties of some creature, thing, or condition.
Subschools
Polymorph: a polymorph spell transforms your physical body...If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size." pg. 212 Core Rulebook
If you have 60 as static bonus to damage you would need 380 out of dice - thats 63d6 if they are maximized... how are you doing that?
The damage dice he got, based on his GMs calculations was 12d8, which makes greater vital strike 48d8 = max 184.
@StreamOfTheSky: I don't read Strong Jaw entirely that way.. As I see it, you double the damage dice if the creature is gargantuan or colossal, so you don't increase the damage dice before doubling if the creature is gargantuan.
Also enlarge person has this: "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack." So it wouldn't stack with the polymorph :-(
It's ok now that I have giant hideI don't need enlarge person I'll try to edit that to build later to reflect changes people have recommended on here
Heh - they've clearly never fought against MY Balor's - the ones who can fly, cast Greater Dispel Magic and Dominate at will, are beyond genius level intelligence and have legions of demons at their command.Funny how all these builds would solo CR20 monsters in one round.
"So, and then we killed 10 Balors in 12 seconds. I don't know what's the big fuss about them..."
My point was more in the vein that hit point totals of high CR monster don't match up at all with the damage output a high level character can produce... which, IMHO, diminishes the epic-ness of such high-level encounters a lot. If a Balor ( or Pit Fiend or whatever other CR20 monster ) doesn't last more than one full-attack against a single character, it feels like a minion.
Eh, I warned of this when we still were in the beta phase of the game, the designers chose not to listen and even diminished the HPs of dragons.
If you have 60 as static bonus to damage you would need 380 out of dice - thats 63d6 if they are maximized... how are you doing that?
The damage dice he got, based on his GMs calculations was 12d8, which makes greater vital strike 48d8 = max 184.
@StreamOfTheSky: I don't read Strong Jaw entirely that way.. As I see it, you double the damage dice if the creature is gargantuan or colossal, so you don't increase the damage dice before doubling if the creature is gargantuan.
Also enlarge person has this: "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack." So it wouldn't stack with the polymorph :-(
Strong Jaw does not increase your size IIRC. It increase the base damage that you do "as if" you were larger in the same sense that improved natural attack increases base damage as if you were a large sized creature.
When you reach level 20 a CR 20 monster is just a standard fight.
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Strong Jaw does not increase your size IIRC. It increase the base damage that you do "as if" you were larger in the same sense that improved natural attack increases base damage as if you were a large sized creature.
I think you misunderstood the context of my post.
The part about enlarge person was related to polymorph though wildshape.
When you reach level 20 a CR 20 monster is just a standard fight.
It still shouldn't be a "one round and gone" fight... especially since the damage outputs from this thread are for one character. So every character in the group can solo a CR 20 encounter... per round?
Ok, but I never saw him try to do that.
The only related text I saw was "Enlarged (via Animal Growth or Enlarge Person"
He would have to use enlarge person though since polymorph no longer changes your type or subtype like it did in 3.5.
Ok, but I never saw him try to do that.
The only related text I saw was "Enlarged (via Animal Growth or Enlarge Person"He would have to use enlarge person though since polymorph no longer changes your type or subtype like it did in 3.5.
But given that wildshape is a polymorph effect that changes your size (possibly), it doesn't stack with enlarge person.
But given that wildshape is a polymorph effect that changes your size (possibly), it doesn't stack with enlarge person.Ok, but I never saw him try to do that.
The only related text I saw was "Enlarged (via Animal Growth or Enlarge Person"He would have to use enlarge person though since polymorph no longer changes your type or subtype like it did in 3.5.
Polymorph does not really increase size. It gives you a new form. Your new base form is just of a different size.
Enlarge person actually affects whatever your current base size is, and that is what the restriction is on.
Polymorph does not really increase size. It gives you a new form. Your new base form is just of a different size.Enlarge person actually affects whatever your current base size is, and that is what the restriction is on.
I wholeheartedly disagree ;-)
Polymorph does change your size, the fact that it does is all over the rules: "If a polymorph spell causes you to change size...", "the equipment resizes to match your new size." + they grant size bonusses.
EDIT: Just found the clearest bit on the matter in the polymorph section: "In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell."
When you reach level 20 a CR 20 monster is just a standard fight.It still shouldn't be a "one round and gone" fight... especially since the damage outputs from this thread are for one character. So every character in the group can solo a CR 20 encounter... per round?Highly unlikely. That's the catch. High level enemies are often massively resistant to everything except sticingk a magic sword in their guts. With the SR, immunities, teleportation, and other capabilities, a Pit Fiend or Balor is a much bigger threat than its HP alone would warrant, by your calculations.
Also, a massive front line hitter PC will need support to keep from having the monster just teleport away and destroy another city if they want to kill it. That's where you get all of the party buffs/support that are vital. And yeah, a level 20 party can take out a Balor with little fear of death. Level 20 in PF is already epic, that's why nobody plays at it much.
True enough, but I think damage totals will already be very nearby at about level 15-16 to what we heard in this thread for level 20 characters.
Look, what I am trying to say is that high CR monsters should have more HP, so that they can last two or three rounds and get off their attack routines at least once.
I always laugh at the tactics the writers of AP's assign to a lot of opponents. "Butch McNasty begins combat by intimidating an opponent...". In that round the PC's probably will have filleted him, so that he won't get off a second round at all.
True enough, but I think damage totals will already be very nearby at about level 15-16 to what we heard in this thread for level 20 characters.
Look, what I am trying to say is that high CR monsters should have more HP, so that they can last two or three rounds and get off their attack routines at least once.
I always laugh at the tactics the writers of AP's assign to a lot of opponents. "Butch McNasty begins combat by intimidating an opponent...". In that round the PC's probably will have filleted him, so that he won't get off a second round at all.
It is definately an important concern. With optimization we can build characters that can make the worst monsters in the book seem like a minor inconvenience.
As GMs we can adjust the challenges to fit the players and their characters. Upping hp is an easy fix in this situation, and one approach that I would recommend.However I don't really think upping the hp of monster stat blocks is the solution. At the end of the day, the game isn't build for optimized characters, and while I don't mind a certain degree of optimization, I really don't think the baseline of the game should be that.
True enough, but I think damage totals will already be very nearby at about level 15-16 to what we heard in this thread for level 20 characters.Look, what I am trying to say is that high CR monsters should have more HP, so that they can last two or three rounds and get off their attack routines at least once.
Not necessarely, since they lack access to 9th level spells, have far less gold (probably no inherent bonuses), have far lower to hit (-5 from just BAB) which hurts the iterative. They also have to watch their defenses a bit more, probably detracting from offence.
Now, can a 15th level PC solo a balor in one/two rounds? I guess he could, but it will take a lot of optimization to do that.
Considering that this Balor has to attack you, instead of one of your other comrades, all who are also incredibly deadly, I think the percentile chance to get the smackdown is not *that* high.