Summon Monster Tactics, no summoner allowed


Advice


Assuming the caster can communicate his stategy to his newly summoned friend, what combat tactic better utilise a certain amount of low level monsters?
EX: fighting defensively wile aiding another = giving a +4 to the nearby rogue's attacks with a niffty +4 AC for the friendly beast.

Grand Lodge

Summon an eagle right behind an enemy while Rogue flanks.

Summon a Poisonous Frog to do exactly what you said.

I might be a Summoner in class, but it never says anything about the Summoner automatically comunicating with the summons... Unless you're talking about someone named Summonner... That would be wierd...


You'd have to summon something that has a language, such as an elemental, to communicate with it.

Grand Lodge

I had a druid communicate with the animals that I summoned, because I couldn't tell it what I wanted it to look for/attack.


Let's say they speak the same language. Any tricks or tactics that have worked well in the past?

The Exchange

There is a feat/Arcane discovery Fear speach at lvl 5. It was fun to have.
Use SM to provoke AoO, flank, take hits, and damage things. Spook horses, scare minions, a fiendish lion is probably scary.

I think lvl 3 has a pouncing cat, not bad and simple tactically.


It's not exactly low level, but something to remember for druids. Druids can summon giants, one of those giants is the cyclops. Cyclops have two things of interest, the Improved Bull Rush feat, and the Flash of Insight ability. Once per day they can choose the number they get on a d20 roll, before they roll. Bull Rush's are attack rolls, attack rolls always succeed on a 20, so the cyclops can use it to Bull Rush something for at least one square.

I like Bull Rushing wizards into their own Black Tentacles.


Now were talting !
To provoke AoO could be a valuable tactic when the nearby cleric needs to cast in combat. Good point.


This usuallyrequires cooperation with other player characters, but...

Summon things 10' behind enemies, have them charge into flanking positions, +4 to hit. They might eat an AoO, but maybe that lets one of your guys move into position without drawing one.

Generally, if your creature has a low chance to hit, having it aid another is better than having it try to hit itself.

Casting summons the first round, and haste the second just before the summoned creatures move, can be very handy.

Look closely at the stats and feats. Some creatures can grapple or bull rush very effectively. Grapple wizards, push people into pits or off the edge of cliffs -- and you can create pits if no handy ones are around -- very Useful

And you can have one summoned monster stand between you and enemies, aiding your AC or having a readied attack for enemies approaching. Nice if you have multiple summoned creatures.

In tight quarters flying summons can hover over the heads of your friends and do their thing, helping to thicken the defensive line.

As for cyclops, I like having them charge into combat with a Power Attack, then use Flash of Insight to pick a 20. Auto hits with Power Attack are nasty enough, but threatening a x3 crit is a very nice blanket of icing on the cake.

Dark Archive

Animals have an intelligence of 1-2... they don't know better tactics than "swing until he is on the ground". Some outsiders may understand that; but you get 6 words; try to explain "aid another" to most of them :).

Dark Archive

Thalin wrote:
but you get 6 words; try to explain "aid another" to most of them :).

6 words?

Defend me (or them)
attack them
help me/him/her/them


That's what Handle Animal skill is for, though many summoners endue taking ranks in Linguistics to communicate with the variety of their summons. Others specialize in one particular type of summons... And some just throw itinhtere for mayhem.

Some animals, like wolves, understand pack tactics perfectly well. Others mightn't.

Sovereign Court

I think you mean Feral Speech, GeneticDrift, lol.

I strongly encourage getting Superior Summoning - having 2-4 large creatures act as a personal bodyguard regiment makes it pretty hard to get close to you. Even with medium creatures, chances are the enemy won't be able to get close to you without incurring a ton of AoOs, and then won't be able to full attack you.

We were discussing superior summoning over here: http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5pe0?With-Superior-Summoning-is-it-always-bette r-to

I love using summoned creatures to push enemies into pits (see: Create Pit, Spiked Pit, etc.), or to just generally get in the way. Creatures that don't fear death are quite tricky to deal with.

Silver Crusade

The spell "Speak With Animals" can help for commanding certain summons. Also, while animals are not smart... they certainly know how to fight. I would fully expect predator animals to use some degree of basic tactics and strategy; there are no shortage of nature documentaries where you see such a creature bide their time, watch where their prey's gaze is... they wait for a good opening and try to hit from a side not being defended.

I see absolutely no issue with summoned animals taking advantage of flanks, charges, etc. provided the maneuvering involved isn't absurdly elaborate. Telling them to Aid Another or provoke AoOs is likely beyond what you can reliably do without Speak with Animals or a very high Handle Animal check, but they should be at least competent at battlefield maneuvering.

With more intelligent summons, your options open up considerably. The Small Elementals from Summon Monster II offer plenty of options on their own. You can ask Water ones to extinguish nearby flames, or ask Fire ones to make said flames (battlefield control in compatible terrain, perhaps?). Earth Elementals in the right location can be told to burrow around things. You won't be able to follow, but they can do this. Air Elementals might be able to do interesting things to notably small targets with Whirlwind. The list of stuff Elementals can do goes on and on.

Once you get to even smarter summons, it's entirely possible to give them layered battle plans. I can instruct a child to wait until A, then do B in response... then when C happens, do D. So long as it doesn't get needlessly convoluted, they can usually follow a two or three layer idea. I would expect the same out of Mephits, Lantern Archons, and so on.

One of my favorite uses for this is to have a Lantern Archon lure out 'boss' enemies. In one campaign there was a dark, narrow cave and three 'rooms' within, one of which would house a very big, powerful melee creature that would absolutely crush the party in its home. I made a guess on which room the 'boss' would be in, sent the Lantern Archon there with instructions to find a creature matching a certain description and shoot it, then return to the party. Since the boss in question had no idea what the floating ball of light was, it gave chase upon being shot. The Lantern Archon's mix of DR, a good Fly speed, and a ranged attack were perfect for this purpose; it was able to survive the counter-attack and safely withdraw in the party's direction.

Then once you hit Int 7 and above, your summons are virtually another party member. Anything you could convince a fellow PC to do is probably possible with a summon of this Int score or higher. You can assign broad priorities like "Protect this person" and not only will they follow the specific intent of that, they can improvise reactions if things go wrong. A Lillend watching over someone will in all likelihood spend a Cure on them if their ward gets seriously hurt, for example.


I usually play undead animaters, but some of the uses I've found can be used as equally well (if not better) with summons.

Making them run through a threatened area to provoke AoO's (most things only get one a round) so somebody/thing can perform actions unmolested, such as moving, casting a spell, grappling etc.

Aid another. Seriously, a one hit die skeleton or a summoned eagle is never going to hit that high AC enemy! But even something with an attack modifier of +0 will hit AC 10 half of the time, giving a chosen ally +2 to hit. Aid another can also be used in any number of other situations.

Flanker. Now you are the rogue/ninja/vivesectionists best friend. Do I really need to explain this one?


Good stuff all around!
Once the communication problem is bypassed:
-Bullrush in pits / grapple the caster
-start 10ft away to charge and flank
-Meat wall for extra AC
-Purposely walking in treat to triger OoA or trap
-Monster bait in tight corners
All stuff you would not ask a follower to do. (unless evil)

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