What are you referring to as 'not impressive', and what are 'low levels'?
If you can cast Mage armor already, get your hands on a couple scrolls of Shield (or a wand of it), which will get your AC to 18 + Dex + whatever you can get from whatever.
Later on, your main tactics for not being hit shouldn't rely on AC, anyway.
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Dipping the sorcerer is usually not advised, as it has a slower power progression compared to other full casters.
The usual ranged weapons are a complement just as good to the spell array available, even without multiclassing.
The AC problem is present only if you plan/fear of finding yourself in melee range. And in a 3 man party that is a risk even at higher levels, when the sorcerer is just as vulnerable to high damage hits.
I believe the most ridiculously high AC at very low levels came from arcane casters
decent dex, small race, shield, mage armor, reduce person and you're looking at what? 23 AC if you started with 14 dex which is easy with any small race, and your barbarian got what? 18 if he's lucky.
do not multiclass if it is not 100% necessary, loosing a caster level is worse than any AC you could have.
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Don't stress about it. Trying to optimize AC is usually suboptimal for an arcane caster. Definately don't dip - use Shield if you really have to, otherwise just try to stay out of melee. Get Mirror Image early, it's a much better defense than AC in most cases. Later on you should be flying or invisible to prevent attacks.
Pretty much this
Also play smart, if something gets in your face, use a full withdraw and get out of there, a caster 'wasting' a round to run is better than one bleeding out on the ground.Mirror image is great, better than displacement if you're not taking to many attacks each round.
By the time you get fly and dimension door you should be able to get yourself out of any trouble
I'm gonna disagree with everyone else. YES, you should be very worried about it. But that is GM and campaign dependant.
If your GM uses multiple enemies that try to surround your group (and otherwise act with intelligent tactics), you get ambushed, etc... You can certainly be in trouble very easily. Especially in a 3 person group.
The first 3 levels it can be very common for the sorc (or wizard) to be 1 shot'ed. Especially in the surprise round, by a halfway decent archer, or anything with reach.
However, if you opposition is usually single enemy, don't fight intelligently, don't ambush you (maybe because your group is sneaky), etc... Then it is not such a big risk.
Yes, losing a caster level hurts. Not surviving to 4th level hurts more.
Having said that, most sorc builds don't have enough wisdom for zen archer to be all that much help by just bumping the AC 1 or 2 points unless you are also an empyreal sorc so that wisdom is you casting stat.
If you are considering a 1 or 2 level dip just to survive the low levels, I think paladin 2 for hp and saves or barb 1 for hp and rage will probably get you more milage.
In the long run it will be better to stay single class IF YOU CAN MANAGE TO SURVIVE. Mage armor is good. If you can afford a wand of reduce person and/or shield that is probably good enough and will usually last long enough to get to the higher levels. Vanish might also be a good spell choice for you. The problem is that if you are only casting defensive spells you are not contributing anything to the adventure. It can be difficult to find a mix that keeps you alive and lets you strike back in some manner. A 3 person group makes this even tougher.
You might consider summoner instead of sorc. have your edilon just guard you rather than rush off to be front line tank. Then you can spontaneously buff cast almost as good as a sorc. Note: I have not tried this, but I have heard it used effectively.
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Can't really say getting both mage armor and shield spells is a useful option. The sorcerer knows a woefully short number of spells at low levels, and chosing for two defensive ones means no offensive/utility magic other than 0 level spells and bloodline abilities until 3rd level.
Doable, but not quite recommended.
Also, scrolls and wands to buy/find are GM and campaign dependant just as multiple enemies swarming the group - and the money to buy a fully charged wand won't be available from the start (a 50 gold scroll is a large investement too for a one-shot item).
Stay out of trouble as much as possible - or try a summoner, as it has been suggested.
Can't really say getting both mage armor and shield spells is a useful option.
No one said that. However, I see nothing wrong with getting these spells from scrolls if available.
Ordinarily I wouldn't worry about it, but in a 3 person party I might. Buying a few scrolls of mage armor should keep you going for a while, at any rate.
In regard to buying scrolls -- remember that this is a low level party, so they cannot afford any scrolls at 1st level, and very few at the next couple of levels. By the time they can afford the scrolls, the sorcerer will have other ways to boost his AC.
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Actually, a spiked armored kilt, so you always threaten.
except you're not proficient, no point in threatening if you're not going to hit anyone unless you're flanking, which you shouldn't be anyway
Grab spiked gauntlets, one tenth the price and weight. You can still cast with a gauntlet.
Also instead of the armored kilt one could use a haramaki or Silken ceremonial armor. Although personally, when i see sorcerers/wizards/witches wear them I take it as an invite to kill their characters...
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You can wear an armored kilt with either of those, and the armor spikes also allow you to threaten, even if your hands are full.I'm having a hard time picturing what that would look like.
You put your down down.
You thrust your pelvis - huh!You thrust your pelvis - huh!
You thrust your pelvis - huh!
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You can wear an armored kilt with either of those
Then they'll become medium armor. Reduced movement speed for a sorcerer is never good.
the armor spikes also allow you to threaten, even if your hands are full.
Once again, threatening isn't something you want to be doing. You generally want to avoid melee. At first level you could reasonably get 9 hp at first level, 12 if you took toughness. And you have what, 15 (+2 armor, +1 shield ,+2 dex) ac with all that?
Anyway, isn't a mithrial buckler a bit pricey for a low level caster?
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Also instead of the armored kilt one could use a haramaki or Silken ceremonial armor. Although personally, when i see sorcerers/wizards/witches wear them I take it as an invite to kill their characters...
Oops, that wasn't a wizard in the silk robes waving his hands in the air - that was the synthesist casting haste.
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eh, I consider Pathinder, DnD or any role playing game to have an unwritten clause. The more the players meta game, the more the GM will meta game. Also, the less the players meta game the less the GM will meta game.
It just happens that wearing shields and armor that happen to have no ASF or ACP while not have proficiencies in either go to far into meta gaming for my liking
... It just happens that wearing shields and armor that happen to have no ASF or ACP while not have proficiencies in either go to far into meta gaming for my liking
"Hey Sortha, have you been to the shop over on green street? They have a shield that is so light even whimple like you could use.
Yeah, Hassan told me about them and I already got one. It is so light and easy to use that it doen't even interfere with the gestures I need for spell casting. How is that for useful!"Seems reasonable to me.
I think the root issue is that a lighter material should be able to reduce the ACP or ASF to zero.
I think what really bothers is the rule not that someone makes use of it.
The ac of a low-level Sorcerer is not impressive, even with Mage armor.Should I worry about this ?
I play in a three-man party, and while we have a barbarian as a tank, I still feel very vulnerable.
I'm strongly inclined to take an Zen archer dip, to compensate.
This is PF. Don't dip unless you know exactly what you're doing.
You have a front-line melee type, that's fantastic.
Here's my advice:
1. Don't hug or move too far away from the barbarian. With reach issues, you should be keeping as far out of melee as you can. That includes getting anywhere adjacent to the tank. Also make sure the tank doesn't charge too far away from you. You want to be within close range of the tank in the early game. In a typical marching formation for 4 characters, I want to be 3rd if I'm an arcane caster. In a 3 man formation, I'd rather be holding up a rear than caught next to the tank.
2. Use cover when it's available. Cover can be a gigantic help to an early level character looking to avoid ranged attacks and melee as well. Enemies can use this same strategy. Memorize the rules regarding cover versus melee attacks and cover versus ranged attacks. You can easily extract an additional +4 AC as long as you use every cover option you can.
3. For ranged attacks: get down, get down! If you get prone versus a ranged attacker, you get a +4 AC bonus. If they move up to melee you down. . . hello barbarian! You generally can cast with no problem while prone.
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So let me get this straight. The mithral material eliminates the armor check penalty and arcane spell failure for a buckler, so there's absolutely no down side for anyone of any class to wear one even without proficiency?
I might consider that for my PFS sorcerer.
There's a -1 to hit with two-handed weapons while wearing one. There's encumbrance issues. And there's cost.
Otherwise nope.. back in 3e/3.5e in LG many wizards would get a +1 light fortification mithril buckler that would also negate 25% of those pesky crits and sneak attacks that so unfairly seemed to apply to a d4HD class.. for a little over 5k it was worth it after a bit.
-James
Yeah, my sorcerer isn't going to be using any two handed weapons. Or one handed weapons. He doesn't even own a dagger, let alone any bigger weapon.
Encumbrance and cost may be minor issues (gnome with 7 strength and only level 2 right now), but this does seem like it would be totally worth it.
Mage Armor is always a good call and maybe Shield but Shield only lasts minutes per level and is a spell you could be using for other things. Might want to consider getting Color Spray, because the best defense is all the enemies unconscious, blinded, and stunned.
Also instead of the armored kilt one could use a haramaki or Silken ceremonial armor. Although personally, when i see sorcerers/wizards/witches wear them I take it as an invite to kill their characters...
Hey, it's a legitimate move regardless of what you feel about it (and it's just gonna suck for your players if you go out of your way to kill them over gear choice).
The only downside to using a Haramaki or Silken Ceremonial Armor is that your maximum Armor Class only hits +6 (1 + 5 enh.), when a pair of Bracers of Armor will let you hit up to +8.
However, you can pair them together, keeping the Haramaki/SCA only a +1 and then stacking on as many armor special abilities as you can, while leaving your Bracers of Armor to power your AC. This is doubly nice, because you can stick special abilities on armor that have a gold cost instead of an enhancement bonus cost, and you can't do that with Bracers of Armor.
In my home game, we have a sorc and he doesn't even bother to use Mage Armor on himself (he's AC 10). In the past 12 sessions, he's been completely fine with one exception (but he was asking for it) and he got pummelled.
With intelligent play you should be able to stay out of trouble, but it will depend on the GM and how many party members you have. In general we have 6 and he sticks in the back.
I wouldn't dip a level into something else for the reasons everyone else mentioned. Sorcs are already behind in spell progression as it is (the impact is huge imo).
In my home game, we have a sorc and he doesn't even bother to use Mage Armor on himself (he's AC 10).
An this, children, is the point where you throw a couple of shadows into the mix...
Dwarf celestial sorcerer with a one level monk dip ends up with some ungodly AC and saves, especially against spells and SLAs.
Benefit: You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.
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meta gamingYou keep using this word.. I do not think it means what you think it means.
-James
To use out of character information to your advantage
To do something out of character that brings you an advantageTo not do something that would be in character because out of character, you know the results will be bad.
... It just happens that wearing shields and armor that happen to have no ASF or ACP while not have proficiencies in either go to far into meta gaming for my liking"Hey Sortha, have you been to the shop over on green street? They have a shield that is so light even whimple like you could use.
Yeah, Hassan told me about them and I already got one. It is so light and easy to use that it doen't even interfere with the gestures I need for spell casting. How is that for useful!"Seems reasonable to me.
I think the root issue is that a lighter material should be able to reduce the ACP or ASF to zero.
I think what really bothers is the rule not that someone makes use of it.
Still don't like it, guess I have a bias against people wearing armors/shields that they aren't proficient in and not suffering for that choice in anyway. If they multi class or spend a feat and become proficient with them that way, then that's ok.
Also instead of the armored kilt one could use a haramaki or Silken ceremonial armor. Although personally, when i see sorcerers/wizards/witches wear them I take it as an invite to kill their characters...Hey, it's a legitimate move regardless of what you feel about it (and it's just gonna suck for your players if you go out of your way to kill them over gear choice).
In any home games I run I put a straight out ban on those two pieces of equipment. I have no idea why paizo put them in there, they make the padded armor completely redundant.
In my home game, we have a sorc and he doesn't even bother to use Mage Armor on himself (he's AC 10). In the past 12 sessions, he's been completely fine with one exception (but he was asking for it) and he got pummelled.
I have a PFS sorc who is 9th level now. He has died twice, first because I didn't play it smart, second because I was being focused, it was written into the scenario.
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Benefit: You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.
Ok so he cast on his non shield arm, and hold whatever item on his shield arm. I also believe that rule is rarely going to come into play, like food or water. Heck, I've seen cleric/paladins casting when they have weapon and shield, bring up you need a free hand usually make you seem like a rules lawyer.
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actually there was a post somewhere by JJ (probably in the ask JJ anything thread) that talked about just that. In the example he used a paladin with a one handed weapon and a light shield wanting to use lay on hands on some on else. There were three options, pick two.
a)Keep the shield AC
b)Threaten with your weapon
c)Use Lay on Hands
This is probably the point where BBT pipes in and says "use armor spikes" and I'll agree with him this time, the armor spikes will let you to threaten, cast and keep shield AC. just remember to take your AoO with the spikes and not your weapon....
EDIT: Also i did clarify with JJ in the case of a caster with a two handed weapon and casting a spell. He said that you can either threaten with the weapon or cast the spell
Buy a guard dog, or at higher levels, take leadership.
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At lower levels it's fun to hide behind spells like Mage Armour and Shield and have a higher then expected AC for a guy or girl in robes. The problem is that it wastes time and spell slots/money. 2 rounds spent buffing yourself just in case a monster happens to look your way is not how you should be spending your time! (This is low level remember, so even the hour/level buff isn't likely to be up for some/most fights. When it lasts all day you'll likely not be fighting anything that cares that you've got it on you at all.) Sure you could buy a wand or two, but that's just so boring and likely useless as the GM's dice could just roll high so it didn't matter in the first place. 2 rounds for +9 to AC or 1 round to end the encounter with a good Color Spray, Charm Person or other spell of choice.
My advice for those who try to successfully sorcerer, speaking from experience is misdirection (spells like Invisibility, or better Mirror Image) and being able to take a hit. Not tank mind you, but you should hopefully have the hit points to at least suck up a decent blow from a foe and still be able to get away. Skerek had it right about withdrawing, assuming you can withdraw to someplace that isn't just getting charged again. Sure sometimes you get full attacked by a half-red dragon hobgoblin ranger with favored enemy human and human bane weapons, but that's how it goes. Don't tank your con score, take the Toughness feat, maybe even find yourself a toad if you've got the arcane bloodline. You should get by just fine.
(If you want some AC, get an Armoured Coat for 50gp. Move action to take off or put on. Good ambush protection if nothing else.)