Shrinked Javelin


Rules Questions


Here's the idea: a mage casts "Shrink item" on a colossal javelin. Then he throws it and enlarges it using command word, as it was specified in the spells description. Javelin on hit deals 4d6 damage.
My question is if that is possible? How should I treat that javelin. As still colossal, or as medium. If it still be treated as collosal, the mage should apply or penalties when calculating if he hits the opponent.
From my point of view the javelin mage throws is still medium, but when he re-transforms it, all penalties should be applied as when using oversized weapon. He uses strength adjusted to medium item, not colossal. So, logically, the javelin after re-transformation should fall on the ground.
From the other point of view, damage dealt with javelin is not great, so that trick doesn't make the mage overpowered. But, if similar strategy would be applied with use of dozen colossal crossbow bolts, or arrows given to a party ranger, the balance of gameplay would be disrupted.

Grand Lodge

That is not the best use of shrink item. Do you have a familiar, or way to fly?


It is one of my player's idea. He doesn't like small pets that often dies during combat ;) But I think, I know, what you have on mind. Lift something up over the adversary, enlarge and drop? It is that what you wanted to say? ;)

Grand Lodge

Well, yeah. Also, if you want a shrunk weapon that will work with this, use a net. Touch ac is low, and entangled creatures are juicy targets for your heavy hitters.


Shrink ballista bolts to load into your crossbow...

Grand Lodge

Well, if you go that route, you might as well shrink a ballista.


Wand monkey seems more straightforward - why waste a spell and actions for achieving some mediocre damage at best, when your familiar can wield a wand of disintegrate or similar?

Concerning the javelin - I'd rule it as you described it: after turning colossal again, the javelin drops to the ground.

Ruyan.


Sigh. Disintegrate is a 6th level spell: it CANNOT be put in a wand.


True!
Are you satisfied with good old fireball?


Sure. Though I wouldn't make my familiar such a blazing target...


DooM1982 wrote:
So, logically, the javelin after re-transformation should fall on the ground.

Not immediately, but its range after the change would be shrunk considerably assuming the spell does nothing to alter momentum when the size changes. It's entirely possible the bolt will still fly far enough to hit, but with the reduced velocity, it'd probably be flying a lot slower, though that could be altered if they arced it.

And that's assuming momentum would be conserved, instead of inertia. I mean, it's already going a speed. What force acts on it to slow it down? I'm not sure we really have a real world precedent for sudden gain of mass by a moving object.

I'd imagine the cost of these hypothetical crossbow bolts/arrows you mention, which get destroyed on impact by RAW, would probably really eat into their wealth, so powerful as they might be, they probably would have a fair opportunity cost.


This is one of the conflicts between 'magic' and applying real world physics.

You have momentum, velocity, friction, kinetic energy, all having an influence. There is no easy way to calculate what something in motion will do when it suddenly weighs a factor of x4000 more than it did a fraction of a second before.

Do you conserve kinetic energy? Do you conserve momentum? Does it slow down if there is no external force to slow it down? Do you reduce the range or accuracy from friction since the cross section is x250?

Also, who does the party know that can make 4 ton javelin that when shrunk will work like a balanced standard javelin?

Also, remember that if the wizard carrying said javelin gets hit with a dispel magic, he may find his legs crushed under the 4 ton javelin

Each group that wants to pursue this needs to decide how to handle this.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the last group I was in that brought this up, what we decided was:
Allowed the damage of 4 categories on crossbow bolts.
Cost was pretty prohibitive, I think we made the giant xbow bolts 5k each before enhancments. And only really expert crafters could make them and it took a long time.


DooM1982 wrote:
Here's the idea: a mage casts "Shrink item" on a colossal javelin. Then he throws it and enlarges it using command word, as it was specified in the spells description.

If "by a word of command from the original caster" is the same as activating a command word magic item, then it is a standard action to do so.


No, Grick, it's an effect of the spell, not a command-word-activated magic item.

You and Ciretose should go hoist a few tankards together...


RuyanVe wrote:
Wand monkey seems more straightforward - why waste a spell and actions for achieving some mediocre damage at best, when your familiar can wield a wand of disintegrate or similar?

Apart from that 6lvl issue, do familiars really can use wands?

Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
This is one of the conflicts between 'magic' and applying real world physics.

Yeah, it really is. But I think, that when it goes to the situation, when "properly" used low level spell suppose to be too powerful GM must refer to the mysterious thing that some people call "balance". So, I think that bolts will fall.

Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
Also, remember that if the wizard carrying said javelin gets hit with a dispel magic, he may find his legs crushed under the 4 ton javelin

I like your way of thinking ;)

Generally, in the group I GM is the wizard, that have appropriate craft skills, so he can create such - ballista in fact -bolt. Game's mechanic allows it.


DooM1982 wrote:
familiars really can use wands?

If it has the limbs or appendages necessary to grasp and point it, the ability to speak the word, the intelligence necessary to know what it's doing, and either it or the master has enough ranks in Use Magic Device to activate the wand, then yes.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

When we have used Reduce Person on an archer, we have always played that the shrunken arrows return to normal size once they leave the archers area, and so do normal-size damage when they hit. (And the archer gets a better to-hit roll because of their increased dex.) I gather that's in RAW, but I don't have a reference.

I don't know why this situation would be any different.


pH unbalanced wrote:
When we have used Reduce Person on an archer, we have always played that the shrunken arrows return to normal size once they leave the archers area, and so do normal-size damage when they hit. (And the archer gets a better to-hit roll because of their increased dex.) I gather that's in RAW, but I don't have a reference.

Sorry, if the attacker is "benefiting" from Reduce Person, then the damage is based on the size of the bow.

Quote:
Melee and projectile weapons deal less damage. Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any reduced item that leaves the reduced creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them).

And FYI, Enlarge Person does not operate the same way, inducing head scratching and frustration from archers.

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