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The List of improved familiars has a level requirement for each familiar.
It is titled the Arcane Spellcatser Level.
Is that the class level of the class that gives the familiar or is th the casterlevel?
So if I am caster 6/other class 1 and have magical knack for the caster class, giving me +1 caster level, can I choose an level 7 improved Familiar?
An another question on imp. familiars.
In the feat description it states: You may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away on each alignment axis (lawful through chaotic, good through evil).
But most of the improved familiars have descriptions sounding like you have to exactly match their alingnment.
Example: A 5th-level chaotic neutral spellcaster with the Improved Familiar feat can gain a sprite as a familiar.
So could a caotic good caster take a sprite as familiar or not?
magical knack gives you +2 cl for everything except granting extra spells, which includes qualifieing for feats.
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5clm?Magical-Knack
if you're LG then you can take a LG, NG, LN, or N familiar.
Improved Familiar
Gain a more powerful familiar
Prerequisitites: Ability to acquire a familiar
Benefit: When choosing a familiar, the creatures listed below are also available to you. You may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away on each alignment axis (lawful through chaotic, good through evil).
Sam S, unfortunately the RAW of the bestiaries contradicts the RAW of the Core Rulebook. Core Rulebook states that you must be within one step on each axis. This alone is a bit confusing since that could mean a LN could have a LN, TN, LG, NG, LE, NE OR it means a LN can have a LN, TN, LG, LE. I lean towards the latter.
Then the Bestiaries come along and in most cases state that you must be the same alignment as the familiar in question. Now, I see this could be two things: either A) the specific cases (most of them) in the bestiaries are extra limits on the feat OR B) you must be within 1 step of that alignment as the feat indicates.
To summarize: Is the Feat correct (albeit, badly worded), or is the Feat correct BUT there are extra limitations in the case of many improved familiars.
- Gauss
Alas, I fear that once again, specific trumps general... so there's no Lyrakien familiar for my NG sorceress...
magical knack gives you +2 cl for everything except granting extra spells, which includes qualifieing for feats.
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5clm?Magical-Knack
I have that one. That's why I asked if it is caster level or class level in the requirement for the various improved familiars.
LazarX said that it is character level and thus magical knack doesn't work.
I would vote that the text in each familiar's entry dictates the base alignment you have to be "one step" within for the purposes of the Improved Familiar feat. This is important because the alignments listed under Alignment for any given creature aren't absolutes.
The present way they give the information precludes the PC trying to find that one slightly off kilter familiar to tag as their Imp'd one.
"but this one is NG not N, that makes it ok!" or whatever.
Otherwise the text would need to call out specifically that its a deviation from that given for the feat.
At least, thats my .02.
-S
I think the bestiary entries mention alignment re: familiar as a reminder of the feat requirements, not as specific limitations. Otherwise the questions on this forum would be, "Can my NG wizard take an Imp as a familiar? The imp entry doesn't say anything about required alignment."
I could be wrong, and there certainly could be creatures which really require a specific alignment.
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No... spellcaster class levels. not effective spellcaster level bumped up by a trait. THAT's what I said.magical knack gives you +2 cl for everything except granting extra spells, which includes qualifieing for feats.
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5clm?Magical-Knack
I have that one. That's why I asked if it is caster level or class level in the requirement for the various improved familiars.
LazarX said that it is character level and thus magical knack doesn't work.
I disagree with you here... the text for the Improved Familiar feat only says "sufficiently high level (see below)." and then in the table it says "Arcane spellcaster level". There is no reason to think that a trait that raises your caster level shouldn't affect what they list as your "Arcane spellcaster level".
Here's the text from Magical Knack:
"Benefit: Pick a class when you gain this trait—your caster level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn’t increase your caster level higher than your current Hit Dice."
Why would this not apply to your arcane spellcaster level?
I think this is a semantics SNAFU.
'Arcane Spellcaster' (Wizard, Sorcerer, Witch, et. al.) 'Level.'
Not a reference to caster level, but to class level in an arcane spellcasting class.
Mind you, I'm inclined to see it that way, because I don't think a trait should qualify one for quicker access to the Improved Familiar feat, especially considering everything that Magical Knack DOES hand out. So, is biased view, but reasonable, I think. Somebody got lazy/was trying to condense verbiage to save space, used 'Arcane Spellcaster' as shorthand for all the arcane caster classes, tacked 'level' on w/o bothering to insert 'class' into sentence...
There is no reason to think that a trait that raises your caster level shouldn't affect what they list as your "Arcane spellcaster level".
Yeah, no reason at all, except that the rules say "Arcane Spellcaster Level" instead of "Arcane Caster Level" which would be the proper rules term if you are referencing the Caster Level. Magical Knack doesn't give you +2 Spellcaster Level, it gives Caster Level, which is a defined rules term distinct from your Class Levels in a Casting Class.
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There is no reason to think that a trait that raises your caster level shouldn't affect what they list as your "Arcane spellcaster level".Yeah, no reason at all, except that the rules say "Arcane Spellcaster Level" instead of "Arcane Caster Level" which would be the proper rules term if you are referencing the Caster Level. Magical Knack doesn't give you +2 Spellcaster Level, it gives Caster Level, which is a defined rules term distinct from your Class Levels in a Casting Class.
The point that I'm making is that "Arcane Spellcaster Level" is NOT a defined term, so it makes more sense to me that they flubbed up their verbage when they really MEANT the defined term "Arcane Caster Level". That's how I view it. FAQ it if you like, but I think my interpretation makes more sense than yours.
Sounds like Linkie
At any rate, Caster Level =/= spellcaster level.
In my opinion, it says Arcane Spellcaster Level, NOT Caster Level. There are feats that do however mention Caster Level as a pre-requisite (such as Arcane Strike and Arcane Armor Training w/e it was.)
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Sounds like Linkie
At any rate, Caster Level =/= spellcaster level.
In my opinion, it says Arcane Spellcaster Level, NOT Caster Level. There are feats that do however mention Caster Level as a pre-requisite (such as Arcane Strike and Arcane Armor Training w/e it was.)
I just don't think anyone has made a valid argument that Caster Level is not equal to "Arcane spellcaster level". I would argue with any DM that if something raises your caster level in an arcane spellcasting class, it should also let you qualify for Improved Familiar, and I think it's a valid argument.
I just don't think anyone has made a valid argument that Caster Level is not equal to "Arcane spellcaster level". I would argue with any DM that if something raises your caster level in an arcane spellcasting class, it should also let you qualify for Improved Familiar, and I think it's a valid argument.Sounds like Linkie
At any rate, Caster Level =/= spellcaster level.
In my opinion, it says Arcane Spellcaster Level, NOT Caster Level. There are feats that do however mention Caster Level as a pre-requisite (such as Arcane Strike and Arcane Armor Training w/e it was.)
It's all up to your GM. again, ARCANE SPELLCASTER LEVEL =/= Caster Level.
To me, your making it sound like I would ALSO get class features as well.
So essentially, instead of having, say, a Magus 5/Fighter 2, you'd have a Magus 7/Fighter 2 by that logic.
Also, take a look at the definition of Caster Level
Caster Level (CL): Caster level represents a creature's power and ability when casting spells. When a creature casts a spell, it often contains a number of variables, such as range or damage, that are based on the caster's level.
Nowhere does it say it affects the spellcaster's level. The trait only gives you a +2 CL, it does not say +2 to effective spellcaster level (with that in mind, you would not get any new spells or class features.)
Also again note that Caster Level and Spellcaster Level are two different things
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I just don't think anyone has made a valid argument that Caster Level is not equal to "Arcane spellcaster level". I would argue with any DM that if something raises your caster level in an arcane spellcasting class, it should also let you qualify for Improved Familiar, and I think it's a valid argument.Sounds like Linkie
At any rate, Caster Level =/= spellcaster level.
In my opinion, it says Arcane Spellcaster Level, NOT Caster Level. There are feats that do however mention Caster Level as a pre-requisite (such as Arcane Strike and Arcane Armor Training w/e it was.)
It's all up to your GM. again, ARCANE SPELLCASTER LEVEL =/= Caster Level.
To me, your making it sound like I would ALSO get class features as well.
So essentially, instead of having, say, a Magus 5/Fighter 2, you'd have a Magus 7/Fighter 2 by that logic.
Also, take a look at the definition of Caster Level
Caster Level (CL): Caster level represents a creature's power and ability when casting spells. When a creature casts a spell, it often contains a number of variables, such as range or damage, that are based on the caster's level.
Nowhere does it say it affects the spellcaster's level. The trait only gives you a +2 CL, it does not say +2 to effective spellcaster level (with that in mind, you would not get any new spells or class features.)
Also again note that Caster Level and Spellcaster Level are two different things
I'm not in any way suggesting that "Caster Level" the defined term is the same as your level in a class. You don't get the class features, you're just treated as if you were a higher level for spell DCs and many prerequisites. I get that. What I'm saying is I still don't see a reason to treat the UNDEFINED term "Arcane spellcaster level" used in the Improved Familiar feat as anything other than the Caster Level. If you can use the Magical Knack trait to qualify for Arcane Armor Training (as your post is suggesting) then I see no reason that it's any different for Improved Familiar.
The only reason they specified the word "arcane" in the Improved Familiar table is because you only get a familiar (normally) through arcane means, not divine. So they're saying if you took one level of Wizard, then 7 levels of Cleric, you can't choose Improved Familiar UNLESS you have some way of upping your effective Wizard Caster Level to 3rd. Then you'd qualify to get a Dire Rat familiar.
Edit: Here's another example. The Boon Companion feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/boon-companion) says that you treat the abilities of your familiar as if the class that granted it was four levels higher. Would you agree that this would also allow you to qualify for Improved Familiar as a Wizard 1/Cleric 2? I see no reason why it shouldn't, and I see no reason that it should be a different situation than Magical Knack.
I'm not in any way suggesting that "Caster Level" the defined term is the same as your level in a class. You don't get the class features, you're just treated as if you were a higher level for spell DCs and many prerequisites. I get that. What I'm saying is I still...
Except there are feats that EXPLICITLY say Caster Level, NOT spellcaster level. Just because Caster Level is in there does not make it Caster Level. Arcane Spellcaster Level is essentially Class Levels in other words.
It's more akin to fighter feats such as Weapon Specialization: You need to be a level 4 fighter to pick it. Likewise for picking certain familiars.
I'm not saying how it is, I am going strictly RAW. Caster Level is only for level-dependent affects of spells, not anything else. You can houserule it however you want. If you were in my game, I would not allow it unless your Class Level was sufficient enough.
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I'm not in any way suggesting that "Caster Level" the defined term is the same as your level in a class. You don't get the class features, you're just treated as if you were a higher level for spell DCs and many prerequisites. I get that. What I'm saying is I still...Except there are feats that EXPLICITLY say Caster Level, NOT spellcaster level. Just because Caster Level is in there does not make it Caster Level. Arcane Spellcaster Level is essentially Class Levels in other words.
It's more akin to fighter feats such as Weapon Specialization: You need to be a level 4 fighter to pick it. Likewise for picking certain familiars.
I'm not saying how it is, I am going strictly RAW. Caster Level is only for level-dependent affects of spells, not anything else. You can houserule it however you want. If you were in my game, I would not allow it unless your Class Level was sufficient enough.
Gjorbjond has a great point. What about prestige classes that raise your caster level? Are you saying that a Sorcerer 5/DD 4 wouldn't qualify for an Improved Familiar that requires Arcane Spellcaster Level 7? DD only raises your Caster Level and gives you the spells for some levels, it doesn't actually raise your Sorcerer level, but can you really justify not allowing that character to get the upgraded Familiar? Caster Level should be sufficient for the Improved Familiar feat for this reason alone.
so a 3 magus/1 wizard/1 sorcerer who took a familiar with the wizard level----1st level familiar? or 5th?
so a 3 magus/1 wizard/1 sorcerer who took a familiar with the wizard level----1st level familiar? or 5th?
Those arcane caster levels don't stack.
Your highest caster level is 3.
Let's say I have a Sorcerer 5/Dragon Desciple 2 with a familiar and the Magical Knack trait. Does he qualify for pseudodragon Improved Familiar? How about if he doesn't have Magical Knack? How about if he had Eclectic Training?
It states caster level so magical knack would qualify. Eclectic training should count also if it the ability that bumps your caster level.
It seem the familiar runs off of caster levels, not class levels.
Wraithstrike:
If the magus, wizard, and sorcerer all have the ability to have a familiar then the levels stack. This means the Magus would have to select the Familiar magus arcana and the sorcerer would have to have a familiar (from one of the means a sorcerer can have a familiar). See the bolded portion below.
Familiar Ability Descriptions: All familiars have special abilities (or impart abilities to their masters) depending on the master’s combined level in classes that grant familiars, as shown on the table below. The abilities are cumulative.
Regarding Improved Familiars: The improved familiar ability is not based on 'Caster level'. It is based on Arcane Spellcaster Level. Unfortunately this term is not defined and a developer has never commented on it (that I have seen). The opinions on what it means are quite varied.
- Gauss
Just to complicate matters further, a certain 3rd party product had me considering the possibilities of what would happen if a 10th level summoner decided to take his next level as a witch, making him a summoner 10/witch 1 and granting him the ability to acquire a familiar.
Could he take the Improved Familiar feat at that point and actually acquire an improved familiar instead of a normal familiar right away? The weakest possible improved familiar requires an Arcane Spellcaster Level of 3. This character does have an Arcane Spellcaster Level of 10 -- but not in the class that grants him a familiar, in which his level is only 1.
So could this character acquire nearly any desired improved familiar, even though its abilities would be those of the familiar of a 1st level sorcerer or wizard?
Wraithstrike:
If the magus, wizard, and sorcerer all have the ability to have a familiar then the levels stack. This means the Magus would have to select the Familiar magus arcana and the sorcerer would have to have a familiar (from one of the means a sorcerer can have a familiar). See the bolded portion below.
Familiar Ability Descriptions: All familiars have special abilities (or impart abilities to their masters) depending on the master’s combined level in classes that grant familiars, as shown on the table below. The abilities are cumulative.Regarding Improved Familiars: The improved familiar ability is not based on 'Caster level'. It is based on Arcane Spellcaster Level. Unfortunately this term is not defined and a developer has never commented on it (that I have seen). The opinions on what it means are quite varied.
- Gauss
I see. That is not even a defined term so I see your point. I agree this would have been easier if they done it like they do druids and reference an "effective wizard level" like animal companions reference effective druid levels.
I did hit the FAQ button, but hopefully they read the entire thread.
Wraithstrike:
Because of the lack of definition I use the effective familiar level to determine improved familiar level. It works pretty well and makes sense to me personally.
- Gauss
Wraithstrike:
Because of the lack of definition I use the effective familiar level to determine improved familiar level. It works pretty well and makes sense to me personally.- Gauss
That is what I would do also. :)
Hey does anybody know if there was every an official ruling on this? It's extremely pertinent to a character im building atm.
+1
e.g. would a CG Bard 6/Sorcerer 1 qualify for Faerie Dragon (i.e. 7 levels of Arcane Spellcaster)? Or Bard 7/Sorc 1?
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First of all, I'd note that the rules are unclear on this. We're all doing our best to interpret the rules, and people of good will can disagree about this.
How I Think the Rules on the Page are Supposed to Work: Highest level in a single class that allows a familiar. Special exceptions exist for classes like Eldritch Knight, which state that they stack with leels of the character's spellcasting class for the purpose of qualifying for feats.
How I Would Like the Rules to Work: Total number of levels in spellcasting classes that allow a familiar. So a Wizard 4 / Cleric 3 / Mystic Theurge 3 would be considered 7th level.
--
As far as I can tell, Spellcaster Level and Caster Level are synonymous. I can see how people think otherwise though. There is enough ambiguity to warrant FAQing it.
Another thought: If you have an arcane scaling SLA, it can be argued to be Arcane spellcaster level. This could grant access to the desired Improved Familiar, but will not add anything to the familiar's benefits by level such as INT, Natural AC bonus, etc. My GM did not go for it until the SLA FAQ came out.
As to the alignment issue, remember that the table is not the only source of critters. The GM is free to add whatever he wants. That is where you would need to pay special attention to the alignment of the critter. As to the critters being only for a single alignment vs. one step, there are some that allow more than a single alignment but less than all possible alignments. Lastly, he text says "You may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away on each alignment axis (lawful through chaotic, good through evil)." So if you are true neutral, you can get an improved familiar of any alignment.
/cevah
It seems to me that the 'Master Class Level' in the base familiar table and the 'Arcane Caster Level' for an improved familiar are intended to be the same thing. Since those items were published, new classes have been created, new ways to get familiars were added, and also, in general, more strict definitions of terminology have been developed to provide greater precision in rules descriptions.
I am sure they would be written differently now.
The List of improved familiars has a level requirement for each familiar.
It is titled the Arcane Spellcatser Level.
Is that the class level of the class that gives the familiar or is th the casterlevel?
So if I am caster 6/other class 1 and have magical knack for the caster class, giving me +1 caster level, can I choose an level 7 improved Familiar?
As far as i know there hasn't been a ruling on this yet and i'm very curious to know, so i'll cast raise thread.
The List of improved familiars has a level requirement for each familiar.
It is titled the Arcane Spellcatser Level.
Is that the class level of the class that gives the familiar or is th the casterlevel?
So if I am caster 6/other class 1 and have magical knack for the caster class, giving me +1 caster level, can I choose an level 7 improved Familiar?As far as i know there hasn't been a ruling on this yet and i'm very curious to know, so i'll cast raise thread.
To summarize, by "arcane caster level", what it actually means is "effective levels in a familiar-granting class/mechanic". Magical Knack does nothing to increase your effective familiar level, so it does nothing. Prestige classes, even those that give spells/day and caster level increases, similarly don't do anything about your familiar if they don't say they do (as Evangelist does).
Basically, consider the 'compatibility for certain Improved Familiar' tiers similar to the scaling of familiar natural armor, intelligence, and special abilities.