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If you had natural attacks in v3.5 you didn't need to get Improved Unarmed Strike to pick up Improved Grapple.
I'm wondering if that's still true in Pathfinder. If I have natural attacks and/or the grab ability, do I still need to meet the improved unarmed strike prerequisite for Improved Grapple?
Where in 3.5 did it say that? It's not under Improved Grapple or Natural Attacks.
Are you thinking of Improved Grab?
This came up in a previous game of mine. The result of our research was that according to the rules, the druid's constrictor snake had to pick up Improved Unarmed Strike in order to take Improved Grapple. The DM thought it was dumb and allowed her to take it without it. But then, in a fit of favoritism, he decided my eidolon was OP, and required me to take IUS before Improved Grapple. (I dropped grab next level in favor of energy attacks)
YMMV.
There were several monsters published with the feat in v3.5 who did not have improved unarmed strike first. The barbed devil was one such creature.
Ok, well then that's probably a special exception since there is no rule that I can find that states that creatures with natural attacks can ignore improved unarmed strike for improved grapple.
From Grapple rules....
Grapple
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
From Unarmed rules...
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
So in conclusion...
RAW yes you need it. Imp Unarmed allows a person with no natural attacks to be able to deal lethal damage and to be considered "armed" while using unarmed attacks. Because Natural attacks are already both of those things RAI I would say you dont need it.
lol. James Jacobs says no. :P
Ok, well then that's probably a special exception since there is no rule that I can find that states that creatures with natural attacks can ignore improved unarmed strike for improved grapple.
I think in a "Sage Advice" or "Rules of the Game" article, Skip Williams opined that you wouldn't need it. There's nothing in the 3.5 core books that mentions it, other than the indirect example of the barbed devil and maybe one other creature in the Monster Manual.
Normally I'd say that you should just add the Grab special attack, but knowing RD, he probably wanted it for a character.
Normally I'd say that you should just add the Grab special attack, but knowing RD, he probably wanted it for a character.
Close enough :)
On the bright side, the +2 bonus from Improved Grapple ought to stack with the +4 from grab. And if you're in a situation where attacking is difficult but grappling is not (i.e., you are way larger than the defender), now you don't have to land an attack to grapple without provoking.
If it's only a handful of prisoners, you could hit each of them with delay poison every day and then pump them up with insane amounts of poison.
That way, if they don't take their "medicine" every day and escape, the poison either incapacitates or kills them.
I've seen monsters which have the various grappling feats without IUS, but I don't think that this is a legal combination for PCs, eidolons, animal companions, etc. There's a belt which can give you Constrict in UE, but if you want to use it multiple times per round you'll have to pay the IUS tax.
One thought I had on this was that you could take Alter Self and turn your eidolon into Ronda Rousey for situations where a giant monster with tentacles might not be appropriate. She could go to the fancy ball with you, and she could break people's arms or punch them in the face.
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Alternatively, take Dirty Fighting as in place of the prerequisite for Improved Grapple and your Eidelon will not have to waste the feat and your grapple becomes even more effective while it is flanking with you or an ally.
Edit: It did not escape me that this thread was created long before the Dirty Tactics supplement was released. Yet, the question is still relevant.