I've been trying to find game stats for cannabis and peyote, but I have been unable to find anything. I looked in the drugs section of Book of Vile Darkness, but cannabis and peyote aren't represented by the substances in the book (they just aren't those types of drugs). Anyone know of a d20 resource that has stats for cannabis and/or peyote?
On a side note, what should a bong cost?
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I've been trying to find game stats for cannabis and peyote, but I have been unable to find anything. I looked in the drugs section of Book of Vile Darkness, but cannabis and peyote aren't represented by the substances in the book (they just aren't those types of drugs). Anyone know of a d20 resource that has stats for cannabis and/or peyote?
On a side note, what should a bong cost?
I don't Paizo would stat up real world drugs for the simple reason that it could turn into really bad press for them. The potential risk in PR would far outweigh the number of people that would find them useful (IMHO).
-Skeld
Just use the in-game drugs. There are reasonable analogues.
Flayleaf is a good stand-in for a pseudocannabis, though the effects aren't identical. There's at least one module where people eat it as salad or burn it as incense for its soporific effect. (That's vague enough to avoid a spoiler tag, right?)
It's been made fairly explicit that flayleaf is the Golarion-specific stand-in for cannabis.
Just use the in-game drugs. There are reasonable analogues.
Flayleaf is a good stand-in for a pseudocannabis, though the effects aren't identical. There's at least one module where people eat it as salad or burn it as incense for its soporific effect. (That's vague enough to avoid a spoiler tag, right?)
It's been made fairly explicit that flayleaf is the Golarion-specific stand-in for cannabis.
Thanks for pointing out flayleaf. While the substance is definitely not cannabis, the search did turn up a page on the pathfinder wiki going over recreational drugs in Golarion. Unfortunately, it mostly talks about the kind of drugs that my character would avoid, and none of them are equivalent to either of the above. So home-brewed hallucinogenic jungle fruit, it is.
Personally, I think the game is less complete without such materials. We got horrible poisons and diseases and such, but not so much as a hallucinogenic plant in sight; which is odd given the shamans and stuff that you seem to bump into during games. Where's the picking the rare jungle leaves, boiling them, drinking the tea, and then going into a coma slash spirit journey? :P
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Personally I think it's funny people think there is such a thing as "nonharmful recreational drugs" (dugs too even ;p).
Personally I think it's funny people think there is such a thing as "nonharmful recreational drugs" (dugs too even ;p).
Oh lawdy, there goes the thread. Hang on tight, kids.
Personally I think it's funny people think there is such a thing as "nonharmful recreational drugs" (dugs too even ;p).
I think he might have meant those with mild side effects. The ones that won't put you in comas, permanently destroy your anatomy, or cause you to go into cardiac arrest when you OD; but instead come with side-effects like dizziness or drowsiness.
That being said, "recreational" is probably the term that's the worst here. Virtually all drugs - nay virtually all substances, including vitamins - are dangerous in large enough quantities. Caffeine is just as deadly as cocaine is the right quantities, for example. I'm not sure if there are any drugs or substances that should be used as a recreation tool. Even the old adage "man should eat to live, not live to eat" goes along this line of thinking.
But I cannot fault the idea that someone could use certain drugs recreationally. As a society we profess things like "drinking in moderation" or "social drinking", which is the same thing. It's hard to say "Hey, lay of the medicinal herbs kid, they're bad for you" when we're professing in the next breath that it's okay for us to kill our liver, kidneys, and brains as long as we're doing it socially and don't get labeled alcoholics.
Some "drugs" make lots of sense in a D&D setting. The mystic shaman who makes the spirit journey tea, for example, would fit right in. Something that knocked your butt unconscious but then let you commune or something would be quite thematic.
Also, for those interested in my background in relation to this post; I've never been drunk or high off any substance in my entire life.
Yeah I don't mean to say people can't use drugs in a recreational manner, only that there are harmful side effects (even if minor at first or if they take time to build up).
[bubble bubble bubble]
Yeah I don't mean to say people can't use drugs in a recreational manner, only that there are harmful side effects (even if minor at first or if they take time to build up).
That's true, but technically everything is that way. You can die from getting too much vitamin C (this will never happen ingesting it normally through stuff like oranges and juice, as you'd probably just get the poops for a while if you tried to OD on OJ).
Heck, look at how many adventurers die from sudden overdose of iron in their bodies. It happens all the time. :P
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The problem, as I see it, is that most common recreational drugs have an effect too minimal to be accurately detailed in the Pathfinder system. Small amounts of drugs such as nicotine, caffeine, and cannabis all have a noticeable effect in real life, but nothing quite as extensive as Dex or Wis damage. And players are not going to be taking recreational drugs in such quantities that would give them penalties.
It's the classic "commoner vs. a house cat" problem - smallest amount of damage that the game models is equal to a level that could injure or kill a human being (especially the elderly). The addiction rules are especially harsh - a low-level NPC could be crushed by withdrawal from even a minor drug.
Even alcohol gets only a passing mention in the GMG's section on drugs, as it would be little fun to run a game where, after a hard night of orc-slaying and maiden-rescuing, the party returns to the tavern to make some Fort saves and deal with their growing predisposition to alcoholism.*
In my own game, nicotine, caffeine, and cannabis exist, under a variety of names. As far as game stats, the most they do is add a circumstantial modifier (Drinking Quadarian coffee while staying awake for the watch? +2 to Perception. Showing up high as a kite for your meeting with the Iomedian Hierophant? -2 to Diplomacy). GMG drugs like Pesh and Flayleaf also exist, alongside stronger stuff like Opium, and are treated more like modern drugs - various governments may have bans or require special permission, and the black market is full of 'em.
*Not that there's not place for saves and checks while drinking! A character may wish to out drink a giant, woo a fair dwarven lass with his astounding imbibing ability, or win the respect of those yokels down at the inn. But the important thing is that these checks are there to serve the story, not something the PCs are punished with when they wish to indulge in a time-honored RPG trope.
Next round is on me!
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There are no non-harmful recreational drugs. Recreational drugs lower functional intelligence, perception, wisdom, and motor skills. All of which are harmful in game terms.
Caffeine.There are no non-harmful recreational drugs. Recreational drugs lower functional intelligence, perception, wisdom, and motor skills. All of which are harmful in game terms.
I dispute that caffeine is used as a recreational drug. Even if you want to call it one, it still has side-effects and mild dependence. In this case the slight stimulation effect leads to fatigue later.
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Let us keep the thread from becoming "Drugs are bad!", "Drugs are not bad!", "DRUGS ARE BAD!", "DRUGS ARE NOT BAD!".
Whether or not recreational drugs are bad (and anyone who feels they must take a stand may freely post their evidence somewhere else) is irrelevant to the game. All that matters is what it brings to the game.
Does adding gameplay mechanics to the drugs add to the player's enjoyment of the game? Does it unnecessary bog things down? Does it punish characters who might use these elements to enrich their backgrounds?
Many things in-game are the cause of far more chronic harm than common recreational drugs. Deadly underground gases. A dagger covered in spider venom. Being chewed on and semi-digested. Wearing full-plate on the elemental plane of fire. Yet, you never see an adventurer who had to quit because of the long-term damage these things wrought.
Again, not advocating that all PCs suddenly start smoking up. But if the dwarf appreciates a stout brew, or the barbarian likes a little Shoanti chaw before a battle erupts, or the cleric burns some very special incense while praying for spells, these should be treated as character traits, not as things to arbitrarily slap mechanics onto.
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Can you tell me the safe level of cannabis to smoke?
I know that right it's 0. But it's fairly self evident that inhaling the smoke of a plant is pretty much universally bad for you. (Smoke isn't a friend of your lungs)
Clearly there is a significant difference between the chemicals that are required to live and the other ones. I think there is three useful categories of chemicals:
* Things you need to ingest some of to live. (Eg Vitamin C)
* Things you can ingest with no permanent effect. (Eg Sucrose)
* Things you can't ingest without damage. (Eg Nicotine)Everything in every category has a harmful dose, some of them are easier to achieve than others.
Inhaling steam from boiling it works. As does eating the stuff. My cousin is a huge pot-head. Strangely, he drives better when he's had some, which flies in the face of those tv commercials with stoners running children over (I once road in a car with him driving on a day he hadn't smoked or eaten the dirty brownies, and I was scared for my life, because he was way too aggressive a driver that way O.o).
Incidentally, there are medicinal benefits. Many. Many of them, actually. Also, incidentally...
According to an approved statement from the US Department of Justice in 1988, "Nearly all medicines have toxic, potentially lethal effects. But cannabis is not such a substance. There is no record in the extensive medical literature describing a proven, documented cannabis-induced fatality. In practical terms, cannabis cannot induce a lethal response as a result of drug-related toxicity."[53]
From January 1997 to June 2005, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) reported zero deaths caused by the primary use of cannabis. In contrast, common FDA-approved drugs which are often prescribed in lieu of cannabis (such as anti-emetics and anti-psychotics), were the primary cause of 10,008 deaths.[54]The cannabinoid THC has an extremely low toxicity and the amount that can enter the body through the consumption of cannabis plants poses no threat of death.[55]
Which makes cannabis less dangerous than virtually every medicine you can purchase over the counter at your local pharmacy.
I don't drink, smoke, or do drugs (including cannabis in any form), but I do tend to try and get my facts strait. ;)
Let us keep the thread from becoming "Drugs are bad!", "Drugs are not bad!", "DRUGS ARE BAD!", "DRUGS ARE NOT BAD!".
Whether or not recreational drugs are bad (and anyone who feels they must take a stand may freely post their evidence somewhere else) is irrelevant to the game. All that matters is what it brings to the game.
Does adding gameplay mechanics to the drugs add to the player's enjoyment of the game? Does it unnecessary bog things down? Does it punish characters who might use these elements to enrich their backgrounds?
Personally, I think drugs add something to the game. I'm currently running a game set in a large city in my homebrew campaign; and the party had recently liberated a number of slaves from illegal slave dens. The party did this as vigilantes who concealed their real identities. The slaves were being controlled by an addiction to a drug that was made from a snake venom that messes with your nervous system, and was both highly addictive and illegal. The wizard in the party ganked a gallon of the stuff while they were making their get-away from the burning slave den, and was using it to keep the slaves from going into lethal withdraws, slowly weening them.
When a succubus noticed the Paladin in the party and started playing some tricks on them, she made it look like they were shoplifting. The local guards asked the PCs to empty their bags and pockets, for an examination, and the wizard PC goes "Oh no, I'm still carrying all that adderspite!", and basically ended up handing a gallon jar of super-illegal narcotics to the guards who were just checking to see if they stole some simple beaded necklaces and such. It was hilarious. The whole group was laughing so hard, even though they were sure that they were in deep poop.
For a real world analog, imagine if a police officer asked to see inside your bag, to see if you had stolen something of minor value, so you hang your head down, take off your bag, hand him a huge bag of cocaine "Can you hold this for a sec? I've got another bag..." you say to the officer; whose face is like "(O.O)!!!". Yeah, it was like that.
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Personally I think the rules for drugs are poorly done. Seriously, drugs should have apparent positive benefits. Make them seductive, like drugs are. Most people don't get addicted to speed because it only has side effects that suck. People get addicted to speed because it gives them tons of energy, motivation, and drive, and makes them feel good; before the train wreck that is coming down off of it. People develop an addiction because there is something about it that is pleasing to them, or makes them feel better in the short term, but has terrible effects later.
My friend was in a car accident that nearly killed him and left him with a lot of mobility problems and constant pain. He fumbles about sometimes and jokingly notes his resemblance to "House MD" with his cane he has to take everywhere. He said he could have become addicted to some of the pain killers they were giving him, and the level at which he wanted them scared him. He asked to be taken off of them himself before he was addicted, because he wasn't sure he'd be ale to stop later.
You want real drugs? Cut the "deals x ability score damage" bullcrap. Deal that s~** like the devil's own dish. Make 'em want it. Make drugs that do stuff like give +2 Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, or +1 caster levels, or +5 ft speed, or DR 2/-, and so forth. Maybe some remove conditions like fatigue and sickened. Make it look like something worthwhile. Give save DCs that are deceptively "safe" in appearance. DC 8, +1 per use or something. "Yeah, DC 8, I can make that. I won't get addicted. I'll only use it when I need it..." will be the thought that drifts through the mind.
Before long, you're chewing on three plants worth of herbs, with your familiar injecting you with your next fix, and you can't help but think that the chewing would go faster if you still had your teeth, and you really wish that remove disease would take away all the pain, but you're never satisfied until you've sucked that distilled spider venom through a straw...
In our campaign, peyote forces you to astrally project.
I think this is probably more than enough for most GMs to pick up the ball and run with, if they really want that sort of thing in their games...
Game Mastery Guide - Drugs and Addiction
Some of my players are 10 and 11, so I tend to avoid them like the plague.
There is no need in high adventure to debase high fantasy with such, so for me, they are optional, not needed and not used. That's just my opnion, and works for my players - even the table with players averaging ages of 40+.
Use if you want, if you cant find what you want, use the rules to create home brew extras - it's what GMs are good at :)
Personally, I think the game is less complete without such materials. We got horrible poisons and diseases and such, but not so much as a hallucinogenic plant in sight; which is odd given the shamans and stuff that you seem to bump into during games. Where's the picking the rare jungle leaves, boiling them, drinking the tea, and then going into a coma slash spirit journey? :PCannabis and peyote are not examples of "nonharmful" drugs. In fact there are NO examples of drugs that fit the category you're thinking of. All of them eventually do damage, and all "recreational" drugs carry the risk of addiction, some of them horribly so.
Carlos Casteneda is not the iconic inspiration for shaman after all.
Cannibis is not addicting. I've known enough people who just dropped it when it wasn't convenient enough for them to keep using it. Meanwhile, my mother has been trying to kick cigarettes for the past 20 years or so. My father beat the cigarette devil, but he notes it still whispers in his ears all the time. He carries around a pack of Orbit gum which he chews when he has the craving. He's been off the cigarettes for several years now, but he's still regularly chewing gum; and cautions me to the threat of it frequently.
If cannibis is considered a harmful drug, well there's probably nothing that can be considered a nonharmful drug at all. Anywhere. Heck, every time I pop some Ibuprofen (commonly known as "Advil") to stop a headache or to kill common pain, it has detrimental effects on the the kidney or liver (Tylenol has its own pile of bad side effects as well).
It's definitely less destructive than alcohol, which destroys your liver, kidneys, brain, and makes you look like a sunken faced ghoul by the time you're 35-40. Even if I could get past the fact alcohol tastes like death, I still wouldn't want to drink it, just because of how destructive it is to the body and those around you.
Personally, I think the game is less complete without such materials. We got horrible poisons and diseases and such, but not so much as a hallucinogenic plant in sight; which is odd given the shamans and stuff that you seem to bump into during games. Where's the picking the rare jungle leaves, boiling them, drinking the tea, and then going into a coma slash spirit journey? :P
That's exactly why I was asking. I wanted to make an alchemist for the Skull and Shackles adventure that was a mix between the normal alchemist and a medicine man. I figured that if the character felt that the crew had "pent up aggression" he'd try to help them deal with their inner turmoil by baking some peyote into the next meal plan. Of course that might just result in the captain believing the ship is being attacked by a kraken with the head of his mother complaining about why he didn't inherit the family business, but it might help!
Cannibis is not addicting.
I know plenty of past addicts that disagree with you. That's the problem with anecdotal evidence -- it's anecdotal. If you were to say for some people cannibis isn't addictive then you would be right, but as an universal statement about the qualities of cannibis you are not.
Cannibis is not addicting.I know plenty of past addicts that disagree with you. That's the problem with anecdotal evidence -- it's anecdotal. If you were to say for some people cannibis isn't addictive then you would be right, but as an universal statement about the qualities of cannibis you are not.
I think what he meant to say is that it is not as addictive as alcohol, and especially not as addictive as tobacco. At least that is what I recall from looking at studies of it a few years back.
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Cannibis is not addicting.I know plenty of past addicts that disagree with you. That's the problem with anecdotal evidence -- it's anecdotal. If you were to say for some people cannibis isn't addictive then you would be right, but as an universal statement about the qualities of cannibis you are not.
Cannabis isn't physically addictive. It's mentaly addictive, like everything else you can ever do, inclueding Pathfinder.
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I had a wizard who constantly smoked pot; we gave him a -2 penalty on initiative and perception checks and called it good. On the occasion when he found hallucinogens, it got bumped to -4, except for perception checks to notice magical events, which got a +1 to the roll.
This sort of thing isn't hard to adjudicate; mostly problems come up when straight-edge folks who have never done anything and have no idea what the effects of drugs are like are making the calls on drug effects...
Cannabis isn't physically addictive. It's mentaly addictive, like everything else you can ever do, inclueding Pathfinder.Cannibis is not addicting.I know plenty of past addicts that disagree with you. That's the problem with anecdotal evidence -- it's anecdotal. If you were to say for some people cannibis isn't addictive then you would be right, but as an universal statement about the qualities of cannibis you are not.
^ This. Some people have addict prone personalities, but such people get addicted to anything that helps them cope with whatever problem is on the horizon. You can get addicted to a person, video games, food, and other things because it's not actually those things that's addictive, but that you default to those things to make you happy.
Example: Cornflakes and cabbage aren't addictive. However, many people end up addicted to eating because it stimulates something that makes them feel good. It's no secret that lots of people eat when they feel bad. It's such a common thing that they make jokes about it on TV shows where people get bummed and go home and eat a cheesecake, or load up on chocolate, and so forth.
However, you then have substances that are physically addictive. There are plenty of drugs that your body gets addicted to, and you will suffer terribly at the hands of your withdrawl. I've had both video games and D&D be my escape at one point or another in my life, where it probably seemed like an obsession or addiction (I call it a survival mechanism in my case), but I've never gotten the shakes, had cold sweats, went into cardiac arrest, became violent, curled up in a corner and sobbed uncontrollably, stole money to purchase merchandise, or had to go to meetings to meet others who cannot be rid of the accursed d20s.
Generally doing things that you enjoy, such as playing video games, can cause your dopamine levels to rise by as much as 100%. In other words, video games actively make you feel good. However, I've been playing Video Games since I was two years old. I played them whenever I had the chance. If anyone's body should be addicted to it, it's me. But I can (and have) gone months at a time without playing a video game with no drawback effects. If I just didn't have time for video games, I just didn't have time for video games. I've never even been tempted to steal money from my family to get my next "fix", and so on.
And now we know how Ashiel writes her uber-essay posts.
Actually, this is me sober. It almost scares me to think what I'd be like under the influence. I might even be...ugh...normal. O.o
What about anabolic steroids? In the real world, they increase your strength. The cost is that after years, you will suffer negative side effects, and won't generally live as long. The trouble is that in D&D, characters would totally just use the drugs, because in all likelihood their character will retire or be eaten by a monster or the campaign will end before the negative effects of the drug become serious.
In 1st edition D&D, certain spells actually aged you. Haste, and potions of speed would age you 1 year, and wish (if you cast it yourself) aged you 5 years. Sort of like using anabolic steriods.
If haste still aged characters 1 year, I am guessing it would not be quite as popular in Pathfinder as it is (but still popular enough).
There were also potions of longevity, and reduced your age but had a cumulative chance per potion you have ever drunken to undo all of the reversed aging effects so that you actually age that many years instead.
Well the whole haste aging you thing was yet another kick in the balls for human PCs, who kind of sucked in pre-3E. There were no half-orcs back then, so humans were the shortest lived race as well. Everything out lived them, including halflings and gnomes. Dwarfs could age an extra 30 years and get a second gray hair. Elves were actually immortal, but just wandered off when they had lived in the world X amount of years (elves simply didn't die of old age or have a maximum age category). Guess which of the races freaking love haste. :P
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Cannibis is not addicting.I know plenty of past addicts that disagree with you. That's the problem with anecdotal evidence -- it's anecdotal. If you were to say for some people cannibis isn't addictive then you would be right, but as an universal statement about the qualities of cannibis you are not.
*puts on Psych Major hat* Having actually studied this, and based on research not anecdotes, you're both sort of right. Cannabis (which, for reference is technically a mild hallucinogen, not a depressant) is in no way physically addictive. There are no physical symptoms of withdrawal and your body will never become dependent on it. This is actually true for all hallucinogens.
That said, the experience of being on these drugs is potentially psychologically addictive in the same way as any pleasant sensation (gambling isn't physically addictive either, but people still get hooked on it) and so should likely be avoided if one has an addictive personality...but no more than non-drug things people tend to get addicted to.
So, yeah, marijuana in and of itself is basically harmless (at least when used by adults...there's some evidence of it having bad long-term effects on still-developing brains, like those of children or teenagers). Or at least significantly less harmful than alcohol (which is potentially physically addictive, as well as psychologically so, and generally more damaging to the body in the long run). Other hallucinogens are also harmless long-term...but their short term effects are potentially problematic (and would certainly level significant penalties in something like Pathfinder).
EDIT: Ninja'd, but I think my explanation is more complete. ;P
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I've been trying to find game stats for cannabis and peyote, but I have been unable to find anything. I looked in the drugs section of Book of Vile Darkness, but cannabis and peyote aren't represented by the substances in the book (they just aren't those types of drugs). Anyone know of a d20 resource that has stats for cannabis and/or peyote?
On a side note, what should a bong cost?
Quick and dirty rules for pot. Int and wis drops by 4 per dose, suffer additional negative 8 penalty to will saves for resisting food. On the plus side they are immune to mind affecting effects. When int or wis hit 0 couch lock ensues.
Well the whole haste aging you thing was yet another kick in the balls for human PCs, who kind of sucked in pre-3E. There were no half-orcs back then, so humans were the shortest lived race as well. Everything out lived them, including halflings and gnomes. Dwarfs could age an extra 30 years and get a second gray hair. Elves were actually immortal, but just wandered off when they had lived in the world X amount of years (elves simply didn't die of old age or have a maximum age category). Guess which of the races freaking love haste. :PWhat about anabolic steroids? In the real world, they increase your strength. The cost is that after years, you will suffer negative side effects, and won't generally live as long. The trouble is that in D&D, characters would totally just use the drugs, because in all likelihood their character will retire or be eaten by a monster or the campaign will end before the negative effects of the drug become serious.
In 1st edition D&D, certain spells actually aged you. Haste, and potions of speed would age you 1 year, and wish (if you cast it yourself) aged you 5 years. Sort of like using anabolic steriods.
If haste still aged characters 1 year, I am guessing it would not be quite as popular in Pathfinder as it is (but still popular enough).
There were also potions of longevity, and reduced your age but had a cumulative chance per potion you have ever drunken to undo all of the reversed aging effects so that you actually age that many years instead.
There were half-orcs in the 1st edition AD&D players handbook. They were the shortest lived race, +1 to strength -1 intelligence, -1 charisma, or something like that. The aging effects of haste and the like changed depending upon your race, so elves actually aged more, I forget which book that was in. It might have been in unearthed arcana, or something like that.
Potions of longevity actually required elf blood to create (since elves are long lived), making...
Reminds me of a conversation I had with my sister today. Neither of us would trust ourselves with magical powers, because it would be way too easy to begin to rely on them. An 11th level wizard could rule our entire world, with no other magicians to stop him or her.