Had what I thought was a ridculous situation in my game last night. 14th level fighter AC about 40, fighting two fire giants. Gets paralyzed. The two giants miss him six times. He also had displacement, so I guess that was possible. He gets fireballed and makes his reflex save. What do you guys think? They didn't CDG him, and that would have been next, but he was freed from the spell the next round.
Basically, getting paralyzed seem to make him invulnerable!
Does anyone else think this is funky, or am I overreacting?
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy.
A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier).
Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target).
Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets.
Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
An enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.
Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.
Basically, getting paralyzed seem to make him invulnerable!
If his AC is normally 40, and lets be generous and say he had 10 dex. That puts him at 35 AC.
The giants attack at +21/+16/+11 with the +4 bonus that's +25/+20/+15
50% chance to hit on the first attack. 25% chance for the second.
And he had a 50% miss chance on top of all that.
So it sounds perfectly reasonable for him to get lucky and not get hit.
| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Do note, that since reflex is based off dex, and his dex is treated as 0, his reflex save would be at a -5 modifier as well. Though, I question how you can make a reflex save when paralyzed.
|
Do note, that since reflex is based off dex, and his dex is treated as 0, his reflex save would be at a -5 modifier as well. Though, I question how you can make a reflex save when paralyzed.
I always just assume that reflex saves are supposed to have a "luck" component of some kind. You're going to take *some* damage either way, since you can't use evasion, but you could get lucky and take a bit less.
It is a luck issue. Objects can get reflex saves and they can't move anymore than a paralyzed person could. It is on of those I just accept as a part of the game.
It just irked me that three giants attacked him: the spell caster an the two heavy hitters, and he took no damage.
What if they had tried to grapple? Does paralysis affect resisting a grapple, assuming no displacement?
Why wouldn't they just coup de grace him if he's paralyzed?
This. That fighter should be a smear on the ground after two coups-de-grâce. Were the giants too far away to melee him or something?
Edit: Nevermind, found it in the OP.
If his AC is that high with 0 Dex, then he's basically just deflecting their blows with his armor and sheer badassery. Until they can line up a killing blow (full-round action), then yeah, it makes sense.
Seems like two giants with full attacks should have been able to do the job nicely, with out a CDG. After they missed, they would have grappled or CDG the next round, but he broke free of the spell. I totally expected the party to win the combat without too much trouble, but the giants were CR 15 because they had fighter levels, and they could do nothing against him. Seems like the helpless condition is really nothing of the sort if you are armored and buffed.
The helpless condition is dangerous because of the existence of the coup action. If no creature takes the coup action, the helpless condition is just a nasty debuff.
Think of an armored dummy on a combat training course. If you treat it like a real opponent to try your sword strokes out on, it will still take a lot of punishment and you will often hit the armor, doing little damage to the dummy. On the other hand, if you really just wanted the dummy destroyed, you wouldn't treat it like a real opponent and would hack it to pieces easily.
Seems like two giants with full attacks should have been able to do the job nicely, with out a CDG. After they missed, they would have grappled or CDG the next round, but he broke free of the spell. I totally expected the party to win the combat without too much trouble, but the giants were CR 15 because they had fighter levels, and they could do nothing against him. Seems like the helpless condition is really nothing of the sort if you are armored and buffed.
Helpless is helpless because you're supposed to CDG them at the earliest opportunity. Other than that, it's intended to put them out of commission until you finish off the rest of your foes. If the giants had the opportunity to CDG but didn't, well, more fool them. Doesn't seem very in character for a mighty fire giant to pass up a killing blow, though.
Seems like they would need a perception check or sense motive or spell craft to notice he was paralyzed. They tried to hit and didn't, but noticed she wasn't moving, so they would have changed tactics on the following round, but they never got the chance.
What about grapple? Can your resist a grapple when you are paralyzed, or does it succeed automatically?
Grapple is an attack roll (a CMD roll, specifically), so no auto-success.
As to the perception check, well, maybe. If one of your PCs cast hold person on one of the fire giants, would you have required the other PCs to make a perception check to see that it worked?
|
|
Why wouldn't they just coup de grace him if he's paralyzed?
"He also had displacement,"
"You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you've determined what square it's in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).""Displacement
The subject of this spell appears to be about 2 feet away from its true location. The creature benefits from a 50% miss chance as if it had total concealment. Unlike actual total concealment, displacement does not prevent enemies from targeting the creature normally. True seeing reveals its true location and negates the miss chance."
Ergo, at least at my table, to perform a CDG a giant had to spend 2 consecutive rounds to administer it.
Do note, that since reflex is based off dex, and his dex is treated as 0, his reflex save would be at a -5 modifier as well. Though, I question how you can make a reflex save when paralyzed.
This question has been replied a few times. "Yes, you can."
A ST represent not only you rolling out of harm way but luck, divine intervention and and a myriad of factors that can't be adequately represented on our gaming scale (as an example, maybe there was a small ridge between the fighter and the fireball detonation point, nothing large enough to affect movement but sufficient to partially shield him from the direct blast) .
Grapple is an attack roll (a CMD roll, specifically), so no auto-success.
As to the perception check, well, maybe. If one of your PCs cast hold person on one of the fire giants, would you have required the other PCs to make a perception check to see that it worked?
In the same round? Sure. Probably about DC 10.
So grapple needs to be rolled, even against someone who is paralyzed?
It seems contradictory that you can CDG them with no roll, but they can still defend vs a grapple. The CMD would be -5 from DEX and the attacker would have +4, but the giants might still have trouble grappling the fighter, even when she is paralyzed or asleep.
An interesting quirk in the rules.
Grapple is an attack roll (a CMD roll, specifically), so no auto-success.
As to the perception check, well, maybe. If one of your PCs cast hold person on one of the fire giants, would you have required the other PCs to make a perception check to see that it worked?
In the same round? Sure. Probably about DC 10.
So grapple needs to be rolled, even against someone who is paralyzed?
It seems contradictory that you can CDG them with no roll, but they can still defend vs a grapple. The CMD would be -5 from DEX and the attacker would have +4, but the giants might still have trouble grappling the fighter, even when she is paralyzed or asleep.
An interesting quirk in the rules.
I agree completely; it is very strange. A person could grapple someone, pin them, then tie them up, but apparently if they leave and come back, they have to roll to grapple. o_O At that point, GM discretion applies, as always.
This question has been replied a few times. "Yes, you can."
A ST represent not only you rolling out of harm way but luck, divine intervention and and a myriad of factors that can't be adequately represented on our gaming scale (as an example, maybe there was a small ridge between the fighter and the fireball detonation point, nothing large enough to affect movement but sufficient to partially shield him from the direct blast).
Interesting enough, you retain your Reflex Save (at a Dex Modifier of -5) even when unconscious. paralyzed and bound, against a caster that stands right next to you.
However, if some draggy picks you up with with the Snatch Feat while you're fully functional, you can squirm all you want; your Reflex Save against said dragons breath attack becomes nonexistent.
So much for factoring in 'Luck and divine intervention'.
|
|
I agree completely; it is very strange. A person could grapple someone, pin them, then tie them up, but apparently if they leave and come back, they have to roll to grapple. o_O At that point, GM discretion applies, as always.Grapple is an attack roll (a CMD roll, specifically), so no auto-success.
As to the perception check, well, maybe. If one of your PCs cast hold person on one of the fire giants, would you have required the other PCs to make a perception check to see that it worked?
In the same round? Sure. Probably about DC 10.
So grapple needs to be rolled, even against someone who is paralyzed?
It seems contradictory that you can CDG them with no roll, but they can still defend vs a grapple. The CMD would be -5 from DEX and the attacker would have +4, but the giants might still have trouble grappling the fighter, even when she is paralyzed or asleep.
An interesting quirk in the rules.
While I agree that it's strange, remember that they have -5 from Dex AND -5 from Str on that CMD. As a DM I would also rule that they don't get BAB since they can't move to utilize any form of training, but by RAW they get that and would sit at a CMD equal to BAB + deflection/insight/etc (the -10 from stats cancels out the normal base of 10).
This fighter would, at best, be sitting at about an 18CMD (14 BAB + 4 deflection + 10 base - 5 dex - 5 str).
True, that still leaves the nat 1 possibility, but grappling them should be trivially easy for all but the most irrelevantly weak opponents.
|
|
Grapple is an attack roll (a CMD roll, specifically), so no auto-success.
As to the perception check, well, maybe. If one of your PCs cast hold person on one of the fire giants, would you have required the other PCs to make a perception check to see that it worked?
In the same round? Sure. Probably about DC 10.
So grapple needs to be rolled, even against someone who is paralyzed?
It seems contradictory that you can CDG them with no roll, but they can still defend vs a grapple. The CMD would be -5 from DEX and the attacker would have +4, but the giants might still have trouble grappling the fighter, even when she is paralyzed or asleep.
An interesting quirk in the rules.
Full round action VS. multiple attacks.
While I agree that it's strange, remember that they have -5 from Dex AND -5 from Str on that CMD. As a DM I would also rule that they don't get BAB since they can't move to utilize any form of training, but by RAW they get that and would sit at a CMD equal to BAB + deflection/insight/etc (the -10 from stats cancels out the normal base of 10).This fighter would, at best, be sitting at about an 18CMD (14 BAB + 4 deflection + 10 base - 5 dex - 5 str).
True, that still leaves the nat 1 possibility, but grappling them should be trivially easy for all but the most irrelevantly weak opponents.
Where does the -5 from Str come from? Helpless only mentions dex.
|
|
Where does the -5 from Str come from? Helpless only mentions dex.
While I agree that it's strange, remember that they have -5 from Dex AND -5 from Str on that CMD. As a DM I would also rule that they don't get BAB since they can't move to utilize any form of training, but by RAW they get that and would sit at a CMD equal to BAB + deflection/insight/etc (the -10 from stats cancels out the normal base of 10).This fighter would, at best, be sitting at about an 18CMD (14 BAB + 4 deflection + 10 base - 5 dex - 5 str).
True, that still leaves the nat 1 possibility, but grappling them should be trivially easy for all but the most irrelevantly weak opponents.
Paralyzed also reduces Str to 0, which is what the guy was suffering from. Helpless is a result of having a Dex of 0, but the str of 0 is still there as well.
Got it. Does a shield bonus count when you are paralyzed? This fighter had a shield and a bunch of feats to help her AC with it. Seems like if you can't move the shield to interpose it, it shouldn't count towards AC, but I am not sure if the rules on paralysis and helplessness have anything to say about it, other than "A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act."
Does defending yourself with a shield involve movement?
|
|
Got it. Does a shield bonus count when you are paralyzed? This fighter had a shield and a bunch of feats to help her AC with it. Seems like if you can't move the shield to interpose it, it shouldn't count towards AC, but I am not sure if the rules on paralysis and helplessness have anything to say about it, other than "A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act."
Does defending yourself with a shield involve movement?
AFAIK, shield bonus counts. It is assumed that even if you aren't moving it, your shield protects some amount of your body by simply being in the way of one location.
This rule doesn't necessarily hold up to closer scrutiny, but works well enough.
Helpless characters are also flat-footed
I believe that you lose your shield bonus when flat-footed but I could not find a citation for that. Does anyone know where that comes from?
|
|
Helpless characters are also flat-footed
I believe that you lose your shield bonus when flat-footed but I could not find a citation for that. Does anyone know where that comes from?
From your own head, I believe. Shield bonuses have applied to flat-footed for quite some time.
It's not like a tower shield stops being a useful defense just because it's not moving. It's still a very large area of metal that you'd have to hack through. (A bit of an extreme example. I can see how smaller shields might reasonably lose their bonus, but by RAW they do not.)
Helpless characters are also flat-footed
I believe that you lose your shield bonus when flat-footed but I could not find a citation for that. Does anyone know where that comes from?
Second edition.
I swear that I played PFS in Seattle where GMs consistently ruled that shields don't apply to flat-footed AC. I thought that was new in PF. I even thought that it made more sense, as using a shield is an active sort of defence.
Nope, flat footed losing shield bonus is a house rule. It's one I like, but it is a house rule.
Well... You learn something new every day :)
Well... You learn something new every day :)
Well again to be fair to you in second edition there was something like that -- you could only use a shield against a certain number of opponents in a round and only if they were on the correct facing from you... so on and so forth.
But I've never played second edition :p