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Sooo, just got around to the "monsters" section of my recently-ordered Inner Sea World Guide, annnd... what's up with the Strix?
Really?
I understand it only gets +2 Dex/-2 Cha on ability scores, but as long as you don't need the Charisma (the most common dump stat in the game), that's not really ever going to be much of a problem.
So, it's a wash on ability scores, but: darkvision and low-light vision, skill bonuses to two of the most important skills in the game, 60-foot flight with average maneuverability, save bonuses vs. illusions, and a racial attack bonus vs. humans (the most common humanoids in Golarion by far)?
There is seriously no level adjustment for this race? The hell? : /
The only creature that's meant to have a level adjustment in PF is the Drow Noble.
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Link to the Strix.
Looking at them, Strix aren't notably better than any of the other effective races except debatably for the flight.
Flight is awesome, but they do give up a second +2 for it, and are likely to suffer some serious prejudices to boot.
They don't start out speaking Common, which is a bit of a down side.
Their skill bonuses also aren't universal (unlike, say, the Elf Perception bonus) only applying in dim light or darkness. And the bonus vs. humans is a whole +1 to hit.
In short, they're good, but by no means broken unless you find flight inherently broken...in which case, well, they have wings so you weren't going to allow them anyway.
Sooo, just got around to the "monsters" section of my recently-ordered Inner Sea World Guide, annnd... what's up with the Strix?
Really?
I understand it only gets +2 Dex/-2 Cha on ability scores, but as long as you don't need the Charisma (the most common dump stat in the game), that's not really ever going to be much of a problem.
So, it's a wash on ability scores, but: darkvision and low-light vision, skill bonuses to two of the most important skills in the game, 60-foot flight with average maneuverability, save bonuses vs. illusions, and a racial attack bonus vs. humans (the most common humanoids in Golarion by far)?
There is seriously no level adjustment for this race? The hell? : /
There is no such thing as level adjustment in PF. There are several races which are significantly more powerful than the core races yet they still don't have any sort of level adjustments, like Aasimars, which have energy resistances, no negative attribute modifiers and all that stuff, just for example.
Level adjustment didn't work in 3.5 so it was removed and instead the responsibility was given to the GM to allow or disallow such races and if they allow it how they go abozut balancing them.
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There is no such thing as level adjustment in PF. There are several races which are significantly more powerful than the core races yet they still don't have any sort of level adjustments, like Aasimars, which have energy resistances, no negative attribute modifiers and all that stuff, just for example.
Level adjustment didn't work in 3.5 so it was removed and instead the responsibility was given to the GM to allow or disallow such races and if they allow it how they go abozut balancing them.
There's an element of truth to this, but honestly, neither Strix or Aasimar are actually notably better off than PCs of more normal races.
I mean Strix are if all you ever fight are melee enemies who lack flying...but I'm gonna repeat that whole 'they have wings' thing on that one.
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Winged flight imposes 2 major limitations: (a) you need room to maneuver; and most importantly (b) it stops working below/at half hit points. Until pretty late in the game, a sudden fall will splatter the flyer from a sufficient height - especially archer flyers who will likely be flitting around at 100+ feet up...
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Winged flight imposes 2 major limitations: (a) you need room to maneuver; and most importantly (b) it stops working below/at half hit points. Until pretty late in the game, a sudden fall will splatter the flyer from a sufficient height - especially archer flyers who will likely be flitting around at 100+ feet up...
????
SOurce?
as far as i know it doesnt stop at 1/2 hp
I hear about this for the first time as well.
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I'm waiting for my truck to get repaired so that it will pass inspections, so forgive lacking of linkages. If memory serves, this is described in "movement modes". I will caveat by saying this may be a 3e holdover pre-PF. Been playing winged flight this way for 12 years, as far as I know this still applies.
If it doesn't, then the Stryx definietly earns a level penalty if it does not have racial hit dice.
This also may be mentioned in the Fly skill.
It must have been very old leftover - I cant find anything like that in PF and am 90% sure there weren't such rule in 3.5 - it could be one of 3rd edition things that I quickly forgot when moved from 3.0 to 3.5.
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Ah, ok. So basically, hit winged flyers with gobs of arrows/bolts/bullets - they'll lose altitude eventually! ^__^
Ironically, this may be the reason our group ignores the Fly skill most of the time. There's already enough die rolling as it is, so KISS to half hp and the nasty weather conditions that ground flyers ...
I'll check on this later, since my group will soon be over a Pit of Death.
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I don't know about this "not that broken" attitude.
Flight is far more significant than any other racial feature that I can think of.
Darkvision and low-light vision together are unheard of among playable races. Then there's a (situational) Perception bonus on top of that.
Then there's a Stealth bonus at night (with a racial Dex bonus backing it up). Given that they can fly outside of darkvision rage, and possess the best nightvision of any race, they can pretty much just hide in the sky (with Perception penalties for distance).
Hatred (humans) isn't huge, but it's quite a lot more significant than the dwarven, gnomish, (or any other) versions of that ability. Similarly, +2 vs. illusions isn't that big a deal, but it's at least as good as the elven +2 vs. enchantments.
One of their abilities (flight) is supremely good, and none of their abilities are bad, or anything less than "pretty great". And the only thing they lose is a -2 to the de-facto dump stat.
I'm just saying, these racial abilities really seem to beat most other racial abilities hands-down. Name a racial ability that compares to the power of flight.
Strix on the whole are pretty low on power, but they have flight. At level 1. Is to be noted that nothing can hope to get in the air befor level 5, ad any kind of prolonged flight (more than a couple of minute) have to wait to at least level 9. Even than, we are tolking about some severe resurce investment. For any kind of non-spellcasting class we are talking of 50K gold item equivalent, that slotless means around 100k. Thats more gold-value than a +5 sword, and i think anyone would point out how broken is to have any kind of PG with a +5 sword at level 1.
Can't anyone figure out how broken would be a flying fighter archer at level 1 through 6-7? I mean, the would be totally powerfull even at level 15, but at level 1...
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Can't anyone figure out how broken would be a flying fighter archer at level 1 through 6-7? I mean, the would be totally powerfull even at level 15, but at level 1...
Pretty much this. This ability hugely useful at every level, especially low levels. I can't think of any other race that contributes so much to combat (not to mention all the non-combat problems that flight can solve, or help to solve).
It might be possible to argue that Darkvision comes close - it's a pretty game-changing ability in the hands of most classes - but the Strix get that, too.
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Meh. At the advantage of being able to fly 3 levels early (helllooo druids!), you get to play something that's no trucking way gonna pass for for a normal humanoid and is going to be treated with high suspicion (say...don't you look like a succubus or erinyes a bit?) around. Nothing dramatic here.
I've GMed a Strix PC. Didn't break the game. Actually got quite close to death more often than rest of the group ("you guys wait here while I scout ahead from the aieeeeeeeerrghhhblllz *negatives*").
VTOL Archers require either tricked out Fly skill (is it a Fighter class skill...no) or blowing a feat on Hover.
Meh. At the advantage of being able to fly 3 levels early (helllooo druids!), you get to play something that's no trucking way gonna pass for for a normal humanoid and is going to be treated with high suspicion (say...don't you look like a succubus or erinyes a bit?) around. Nothing dramatic here.
VTOL Archers require either tricked out Fly skill (is it a Fighter class skill...no) or blowing a feat on Hover.
You mean to say that some game mechanics are balanced due to the fluff around them?!
Well I say!
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Meh. At the advantage of being able to fly 3 levels early (helllooo druids!), you get to play something that's no trucking way gonna pass for for a normal humanoid and is going to be treated with high suspicion (say...don't you look like a succubus or erinyes a bit?) around. Nothing dramatic here.
VTOL Archers require either tricked out Fly skill (is it a Fighter class skill...no) or blowing a feat on Hover.
You mean to say that some game mechanics are balanced due to the fluff around them?!
Well I say!
Ever heard of Paladins? *rimshot*
Don't they have to keep moving so they can't full attack as they can't hover without a skill check so no rapid shot. Oh and you will need to keep track of encumbrance and armor check penalty. And wouldn't the wings make your armor cost more and be harder to find?
If the are a vanilla fighter that tries to be an archer... Armor training will reduce ACp and let you fly while weapon training racks up the damage. Most broken strix archer build start I can think of.
Take point blank shot and precise shot at level 1 deadly aim and rapid shot by level 3 will be doing a lot of damage from the air. He would also almost never get cover and not have that good armor to find.
Ever heard of Paladins? *rimshot*Meh. At the advantage of being able to fly 3 levels early (helllooo druids!), you get to play something that's no trucking way gonna pass for for a normal humanoid and is going to be treated with high suspicion (say...don't you look like a succubus or erinyes a bit?) around. Nothing dramatic here.
VTOL Archers require either tricked out Fly skill (is it a Fighter class skill...no) or blowing a feat on Hover.
You mean to say that some game mechanics are balanced due to the fluff around them?!
Well I say!
No, I have not. I fear I may have missed all billion posts about them :(
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No, I have not. I fear I may have missed all billion posts about them :(Ever heard of Paladins? *rimshot*Meh. At the advantage of being able to fly 3 levels early (helllooo druids!), you get to play something that's no trucking way gonna pass for for a normal humanoid and is going to be treated with high suspicion (say...don't you look like a succubus or erinyes a bit?) around. Nothing dramatic here.
VTOL Archers require either tricked out Fly skill (is it a Fighter class skill...no) or blowing a feat on Hover.
You mean to say that some game mechanics are balanced due to the fluff around them?!
Well I say!
Man, it's the Monk Thread Month! You're off the schedule!
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VTOL Archers require either tricked out Fly skill (is it a Fighter class skill...no) or blowing a feat on Hover.
I actually agree with you for the most part, but any creature with a Flight speed automatically gets Fly as a Class Skill. It's under the skill description.
That said, Armor Check penalties apply, and the DC to hover (and thus Full Attack) is 15...so doing so reliably's gonna be a little tough.
And, frankly, most Archers might as well be flying if their front line is worth anything. The archer getting into melee isn't actually something that happens that often, IME.
Enemies capable of ranged combat should also be the norm, not the exception. Most Bestiary creatures (with the exception of most animals) have some means of attacking at range or getting to a flying creature readily enough (even if it's not their best attack).
It's also a completely worthless capability in enclosed areas which, judging be how many people call a Cavlier's mount useless, are hardly uncommon in most campaigns. I mean, with 10 foot ceilings (most enclosed areas), people really can just attack up at you.
Strix by level 5 or so is not broken. By then, lots of things can start flying, and often much better than the Strix. Flight at level 1 is kinda problematic, though. EDIT: It's only problematic at level 1 if you don't use monsters with ranged options. Being up in the air means no cover, soft or otherwise, and a fair chance of being unable to rapid shot due to failing the at-that-point-still-hard DC 15 fly check to hover.
If you don't like it, I suggest looking at the Raptoran race from 3E's Races of the Wild. Handled a PC race w/ flight much better, IMO. Early on, they can only glide with the wings and use them to avoid taking damage from falls (and also get a sweet +10 jump bonus, iirc). Then a few HD in, they can fly for a limited period of time before needing to glide or land (a few rounds, based on Con mod). Using the flight + gliding, they can stay in the air as long as they want, but it's tough in a fight to work around needing to drop down gliding every so often. Then they get full-on flight all day long at a later HD.
Much better handled.
Flight is far more significant than any other racial feature that I can think of.
Natural Flight with average manuverability. This has severe limitations. No Hover so you need to move to stay in the air. Unless you take flyby attack that means no full attack, and if you do have fly by attack that means you get to full attack EVERY OTHER ROUND. Even an Archer without Hover or Flyby attack cant benefit from this racial ability. Also most fights take place in Pathfinder in situations where you dont have the room for a medium creature to fly. Stack all that together and its an OK ability untill you invest feats and skill points in Fly... by that time the rest your party has magical flight that is far superior and took zero feat investment.
Darkvision and low-light vision together are unheard of among playable races. Then there's a (situational) Perception bonus on top of that.
This I tend to agree. Having both is very powerful, but again only equates to a low level magic. And you have to realize that unless your the scout you wont again benefit from this considering the REST of your party needs to see. Torches, and cantrips Dancing Lights/Light tend to keep you from enjoying your darkvision.
Then there's a Stealth bonus at night (with a racial Dex bonus backing it up). Given that they can fly outside of darkvision range, and possess the best nightvision of any race, they can pretty much just hide in the sky (with Perception penalties for distance).
Again see my post about the disadvantages of flight and that fact that the rest of the party must be able to see. This only benefits you if your the scout (which is fine in my opinion).
Hatred (humans) isn't huge, but it's quite a lot more significant than the dwarven, gnomish, (or any other) versions of that ability. Similarly, +2 vs. illusions isn't that big a deal, but it's at least as good as the elven +2 vs. enchantments.
While I agree that Hatred Humans is a very good ability I dont see it as anything game breaking. If anything it tends to make it hard to bring this race into a party with humans(which tend to be the more popular race in my games)... this is not a favored enemy. This is a racial hatred of humans. To join a party with one seems very unlikely.
I'm just saying, these racial abilities really seem to beat most other racial abilities hands-down. Name a racial ability that compares to the power of flight.
Thats easy! Human
Stats: +2Dex -2Cha vs +2 to any stat.
Winner: Human
Vision: Darvision and low-light vs normal
Winner: Strix
Skills: Bonus to Stealth vs +1 skill point per level
Winner: Human
Mobility: Flight vs normal
Winner: Strix
Seems we have a tie... time for the tie breaker. Humans depending on what class they play can change thier favored class bonus to some of the most powerful bonuses in the game.
For instance: Sorcs, Witches, and Bards can add one spell known per level instead of an extra skill point or Hit point.... Thats 20 extra spells known.... That absolutly destroyes flight or any other racial ability in the game.
Winner: Human
Over all Winner: Human
Game over.
As long as the room is at least 10' tall, flying will be helpful. That +1 to hit helps :) And if it's 15' tall, you're good. Granted, if the architecture is anything like today, that'd be the exception, rather than the norm.
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Play a halfling or gnome (or goblin or kobold) druid with a roc companion, and you can have a flying mount as early as 1st level.
My experience, as both GM and player, is that a race (or class) that has unique movement capabilities, in a game where an encounter is balanced for *four people* of their power level, is just gonna, *inevitably* fly, swim, etc. into a situation that kills them.
You end up with one player flying (swimming, stealthing, cyberdecking, astral projecting, whatever) off on a solo adventure, running into an encounter or hazard that the whole party was meant to face, and dying alone, like a chump.
When your super-power is to split the party, you get to be the first fool to wander off and die screaming in the horror movie.
This factor is also the main reason none of my friends have played a Rogue in tabletop for almost two decades. Every time one of us did play a thief or rogue, the temptation to sneak ahead alone and 'scout' eventually became irresistable, and that inevitably leads to the tedious 'write up a new character' stage of gameplay.
Might as well just give them a class ability called, 'Shiny Red Button (Su). You have a shiny red button. It is very mysterious and tantalizing. When you press this shiny red button, you die. Write up a new character.'
But if flight at 1st level is too much, use the Raptoran guidelines and say that 1 HD Strix aren't fully grown yet, and can only use their wings to avoid falling damage, and at 3rd level, for power-assisted jumps or 1 round flights, and at 5th level, full flight. Easy-peasy.
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I just learned that humans are better rangers than strix rangers because a human sorcerer can get some extra spells known.
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As long as the room is at least 10' tall, flying will be helpful. That +1 to hit helps :) And if it's 15' tall, you're good. Granted, if the architecture is anything like today, that'd be the exception, rather than the norm.
You get the +1 to hit for higher GROUND.
It's not just being above the person, it's having something solid underneath you to push off of. I sincerely hope you having been hosing your PCs by giving flying monsters a freebie +1 to hit...
Flight: Half its power comes from people houseruling it / ignoring its actual rules. Next week, we cover "but they're not on the ground, so they shouldn't need to make stealth checks for moving silently!" :p
Also, the Fetchling gets low-light and darkvision. Possibly some other races, too, but it's not only the Strix that gets that.
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I just learned that humans are better rangers than strix rangers because a human sorcerer can get some extra spells known.
Im sorry... for the life of me the word Ranger doesnt appear anywhere in the original post or my reply. How strange you came to that conclusion.
Seems we have a tie... time for the tie breaker. Humans depending on what class they play can change thier favored class bonus to some of the most powerful bonuses in the game.
For instance: Sorcs, Witches, and Bards can add one spell known per level instead of an extra skill point or Hit point.... Thats 20 extra spells known.... That absolutly destroyes flight or any other racial ability in the game.
Winner: Human
Over all Winner: HumanGame over.
You said that humans are overall better than strix because of what bonuses a few human characters can get.
Guess what logically follows from that conclusion of yours? My statement.
It's true that for some classes, humans could be better.
But using those few classes as a tiebreaker to see which race is better overall? Disingenuous at best.
All Strix one shot might be nice and fair because no one gets left out. I would actually take deadly aim before rapid shot so you can do something when you fail the check to hover.
Creative Director
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The strix is a great example of why level adjustment doesn't work.
Flight is a HUGE advantage. It's not something we expect PCs to be able to access until 5th level. And as such, it's not something we would give to a core race.
The strix are not a core race though. While it's true that they have zero HD and thus progress in power as a PC... that doesn't mean they're balanced AS PCs.
Whether or not a strix is a player choice is strictly a GM call. The upcoming Advanced Race Guide will provide advice and options on how to mix powerful races like drow nobles and strix with standard PCs... as well as mixing UNDERPOWERED races like kobolds with core PCs.
But the baseline intention is that strix are meant to be used as NON player characters, not PLAYER characters.
(Same goes for the gillmen, also in the same book, since like flight, the ability to breathe water is a power that isn't assumed until 5th level.)
Also, just stand on the fighters head if you need to be on something solid.
Natural Flight with average manuverability. This has severe limitations. No Hover so you need to move to stay in the air. Unless you take flyby attack that means no full attack, and if you do have fly by attack that means you get to full attack EVERY OTHER ROUND. Even an Archer without Hover or Flyby attack cant benefit from this racial ability. Also most fights take place in Pathfinder in situations where you dont have the room for a medium creature to fly. Stack all that together and its an OK ability untill you invest feats and skill points in Fly... by that time the rest your party has magical flight that is far superior and took zero feat investment.
Its a DC 10 Fly check to move less then half your flying speed, and a DC 15 Fly check to hover. Any flying creature can hover. And making a Fly check doesn't take an action, so a flying creature can hover and still get a full attack every round.
It's true that for some classes, humans could be better.
But using those few classes as a tiebreaker to see which race is better overall? Disingenuous at best.
But we are talking about the over all balance of the class as a whole. You cant base your assessment of a race based on a single build or class its best suited for. And I use Humans because I consider it Baseline. Of course there are class/race combo's out there that are more optimal but that doesnt make the class broken. And I dont have my books or access to the SRD at work so you must forgive me.
The only advantage this race has over any other that I can see is its superior scouting skills, but that doesnt even translate over into a combat advantage for him... it might help his party be more prepared.
For 90% of builds this race has either no advantage or a disadvantage compared to other races. At least thats my opinion.
I do respect your opinion though cheapy... even with your snippy response!
I dont know. I have seen very few races I would use and give up an extra feat, and extra skill point, a +2 to any stat, and some of the best alternate class bonuses for.
In Pathfinder Humans truely are the Master Race. Natural flight in actual gameplay just isnt that great. On paper it looks good but in practice its not that great.
I played a Half-Dragon for 3 years and my flight usually got me in trouble more then it helped.
Its a DC 10 Fly check to move less then half your flying speed, and a DC 15 Fly check to hover. Any flying creature can hover. And making a Fly check doesn't take an action, so a flying creature can hover and still get a full attack every round.
This I didnt realize. We havent dealth with the new Fly skill in Pathfinder very often, and I was going off of 3.5 flight memory. This does make it somewhat more effective... but I still stand by what I said. Its not nearly as good as it looks on paper.
When you add in cramped fighting situations, ceilings, ect. And add it the fact that most of the other abilitis the race gives you are negated by the fact your party doesnt have them... its not terribly overpowered.
But with the flight rules I can see why some DM's would balk at the race. Thanks for clarifying the flight rules for me.
Winged flight imposes 2 major limitations: (a) you need room to maneuver; and most importantly (b) it stops working below/at half hit points. Until pretty late in the game, a sudden fall will splatter the flyer from a sufficient height - especially archer flyers who will likely be flitting around at 100+ feet up...????
SOurce?
as far as i know it doesnt stop at 1/2 hp
There is no source for that IO have been play since puple box / first ed there is no such rule.
Or put a skill point in linguistics to learn common.
Regarding the DC 15 for hover
Take 10
+1 Rank
+3 Class Skill Bonus
+1 Dex Bonus
= 15You can probably assume a dex bonus higher than +1 for a race that has +2 racial to dex, and further, archers tend to emphasize dex in builds...
You can't take 10 in combat.
However, even if you can't reliably beat the DC 15 for hover, you can still full attack if you can beat the DC 10 check for moving less then one-half your speed. You can take a 5' step with any form of movement you have a listed speed for. So flying creatures can take a 5' step while flying, if they succeed on their DC 10 Fly check. Which still allows them to full attack every round.
(Swim does have a clause that states you can take 10 even in combat if you have a swim speed. Fly lacks that statement, so you can't take 10 with Fly in combat.)
Or put a skill point in linguistics to learn common.
Translates into a skill point "tax" and/or having to not put less than a 12 into INT. :)
EDIT: Google-fu fails to find what I seek. Maybe this was an optional rule, like massive damage / death from massive trauma is, from back in 3.0 or something. I'm pretty sure it is a 3.0 rule since one of my players is a wanna-be rules lawyer that has never protested this "winged flight stops at 1/2 hp" rule. Odd, very odd.
EDIT: Google-fu fails to find what I seek. Maybe this was an optional rule, like massive damage / death from massive trauma is, from back in 3.0 or something. I'm pretty sure it is a 3.0 rule since one of my players is a wanna-be rules lawyer that has never protested this "winged flight stops at 1/2 hp" rule. Odd, very odd.
It is a rule in 2nd edition, but not in any other edition (1st, 3.0, or 3.5)
You could just take the hover feat if it's so important for your build.
Wild thought, I know.