I am running a homebrew campaign which is my first time GMing.
Now that the party is level 8, I see a ton of things I would have liked to do differently, like:
1.I was too generous in how the character rolled stats
2. I let too many people in the party (started with 5, but let 2 more friends join)
3. I have given out way too much wealth
4. Until just recently I let them sell for full value (didnt read the bit about sell for 50%) and also let them buy whatever they want instead of rolling to see if it is available.
5. gave out custom made magic items that turned out to be more powerful than I intended
Basically, I think I tried too hard to not be a dick-GM, that I am now in a tough spot. It is hard for me to come up with challenges that aren't TPK or cakewalks, and if i do have a good challenging encounter, it takes most of the night to get through. And I usually end up beefing up the Monsters (like full-HP and recently going to try giving "advanced" stats). I think that if the party power-level was more normal, then I wouldn't have to adjust anything, and there would be the same amount of risk to the PCs.
Another problem is that some players are much better at maximising their PCs than others, so to give them a challenge can overwhelm the lesser PCs.
Now that I have experience, I want to start a new campaign and do things differently, but everyone in the party is enjoying their PC and they probably don't want to start over, especially in a more restrictive system.
Anyone ever get themselves in a jam like this before?
Anyone ever get themselves in a jam like this before?
Oh yes. I think that's the classic "new GM" situation! I'm sure we've ALL been there :)
The funny thing about games - and this can be very difficult for a new designer to understand - is that the very thing players want - power - tends to reduce the overall "fun" of the game, simply because it nullified the *point* of games, which is struggling against challenges.
That said, if your players are enjoying it - and you're not actually *hating* it - there's nothing wrong with letting it play out: they eventually become kings, or challenge the gods and take their places, or whatever. The classic play-out of the "Monty Haul" campaign-style.
Everything you've mentioned though - too generous of stats, etc - can guide you in the next one, and it sounds like you have it pretty much figured out next time around...
Anyone ever get themselves in a jam like this before?
Yes. Those are all rookie GM mistakes.
The best method is to be honest with your players and try to address the problems directly. A reboot would probably be best. That might be a tough sell.
However the players aren't gonna like the next option either, which would be to tone down (or eliminate) custom magic items. Limit the amount of wealth for a couple of levels until they approach normalcy. If you can figure out how much extra wealth they got by selling items make them pay back the overage. Don't expect the players to be happy with their newly castrated characters.
It should be obvious to the players that things have gotten out of hand as well. However, it's alway hard to put the genie back in the bottle.
Large parties can generally be handled by increase the number of mooks in a battle and bump the main opponents slightly. You don't want to just pump up the main baddies as it really leads to a precarious balance where a fight can go from tough to TPK is about 6 seconds.
As for min-maxing players there are two schools of thought. Have the min-maxer 'help' the other players to do the same or ask the min-maxers to tone down their characters for the good of the entire table. It is hard to balance fights when you have overpowered characters fighting along side weaker ones.
A little late for you perhaps but for those GMing for the first time, I alway recommend using a pregenerated adventure path, normal character generation, no custom items, and core rules only (as a new GM you will have way too many things to worry about as it is, you don't need all the extra complications). Also at the first sign of imbalance do something about it, out of game if necessary, instead of waiting until the wheels come off.
The funny thing about games - and this can be very difficult for a new designer to understand - is that the very thing players want - power - tends to reduce the overall "fun" of the game, simply because it nullified the *point* of games, which is struggling against challenges.
This is soooo true. I have a guy at one of my tables who is constantly looking for the next uber-feat, the next magical weapon/armor, the next "it" thing to increase his power. Then when he actually gets it he takes exactly zero seconds to enjoy it before he starts looking for the next "it" thing.
Case in point. He had been hoarding wealth in order to get his masterwork Elven Curve Blade enchanted to be +1 and Keen. He finally saved up all the necessary coin, we role-played through the encounter with the smith and caster (I made him seek out both a smith and a caster and he had to do a little quest to make sure they'd work in consort with each other, but that's neither here nor there) and pay his money. THE VERY NEXT SESSION (this is not a joke, I mean the very next time we gamed together) he complained at the end of the session that he was kind of bored of critical hits because they'd happened so often during the session. Then, again--not a joke, in almost the same breath said, "how much would an adamantine breastplate cost?"
So here's my point. For some gamers, the challenge is NOT what they are looking for. They are looking to be Beowulf (if you haven't read the story you can google it). They are looking to be the most bad-arse person in any room they walk in to. They are looking to have at least 17 imaginary power levels above anything they ever come in contact with. Then, when they actually achieve that, they'll be disappointed.
In the end you can't please everybody.
To the OP, learn from your mistakes, talk to your players, and find a suitable ending to the careers and lives of the current characters (suitable to the players as well as yourself). If that ending is a ways down the road yet, so be it. The old adage is: you made your bed, now lie in it. For lack of a better turn of phrase that's where you are. Once you reach that suitable end, or, perhaps by way of encouraging that end coming sooner, see if you can get them excited about starting a new campaign with new characters.
Thanks for the comments.
Glad to hear that i am not alone. And I take full responsibility for the situation.
I will bring up an "ending-level" with the party next session, and maybe then we pull out this party only on special occasions.
I have ordered the new "rise of the runelords" all-in-one module that is due out in July. And hope to start up a new campaign then.
Heck alot of those aren't even rookie mistakes. There is nothing wrong with starting new, but also consider correcting your mistakes. If its just a matter of wealth, stat generation and character optimization, talk to your players. Say something along the lines of 'hey, things have gotten a little out of hand for me, but maybe we can work it out. We can either A start over at level 1 with a new game. Or B rework character stats/wealth/custom items now that I have experience with it and continue on.'
See what your players say to this. That is, if you want to try and continue on. I and every other gm know what it's like to see a campaign get away from you like that, so there is nothing wrong with admitting it to your players and seeing about correcting it. Just be open and honest, and if you dont think it will work or they dont want to do it, you can always still start over.
Resurrection is costly, if the players have an agreement that they will do whatever they can to restore a faller comrade to life start killing them off. Use this to make them "pay back" all the money they gained by selling at 100%
Or have a thieves guild move into town that starts imposing a tax on everything sold, purchased or services rendered. Have someone (the aforementioned thieves guild?) steal their custom magic items. They have observed how powerful they are any want them for themselves, seems plausible.Then they might go on a mission to get it back, but by the time they do it is appropriately powered for their new level.
As for the stats, well there's not much to be done that's not going to make the players feel like you are nerfing them pretty bad. You can try making generous use of the Advanced simple template. Get the Combat Manager program there is a thread on the boards here somewhere concerning it. With it you can select your monster and with the click of a check box apply the template automatically. this might help even the playing field.
As for the number of players that is always a tough one. I had to turn away a couple potential players from my game recently because we are already at 5. All i can think is to add a few extra monsters, give the casters the ability to summon monsters. Maybe the bad guys have pets. Maybe their god is watching over them ready to grant them a boon if needed.
See how the encounters are going, if they are slashing through it and taking no damage have the baddies call in some backup that was lurking around the corner. If they are having a tough time of it, well those guys never actually existed and your players will be none the wiser.
And remember that the screen is your best friend, fudging is ok when it adds to the enjoyment of the game for your players (first) and yourself (second).
I've been there, done that as probably most anyone who has ever GM'd. In fact, I have a friend of mine who has been GM'ing for a group I have played in off and on for the last 20 years and his normal style is EXACTLY what you are describing in your game. His games are actually real fun!
To a large extent, if you are still having fun then I think you are doing fine.
If you are looking to challenge your players, think outside the box. Personally, I totally disregard the CR system, especially with 7 players. Starting finding some DR monsters, flying creatures, use terrain to your advantage. Underwater adventure maybe?
To this day my entire group fears fighting giant Crayfish underwater =)
Will saves are generally your friend. Use a few more caster types, archer types or whatever your group is more vulnerable too.
Don't treat the bad guys like bowling pins for the party to just knock down at will. Play the bad guys smart and nasty. Remember, they are fighting for their lives, just like the players.
Well your crew has expressed that they do not want to start over so there is 2 options live with it which is work for you or nerfing the party to some extent.
This can be done fairly and out of character but that feels crappy. I prefer it to happen in character. Now given the extent and scale of the nerfing here I would let them know before hand that they might be facing some dark days for their characters but it is part of the plot and part of the campaign arc.
Next let something happen within the context of the campaign that drastically effects the status quo. There ar a number of ways to do this.
1) The party is set upon by evil cultists or a powerful tribe of humanoids/giants/whatever. They bravely fight but one by one are wiped out. Rather than death they awake stripped to their skin and being painted red in preparation for a ritual. A ritual that likely ends with their entrails being used for divination, their hearts ripped from their chests and all sorts of ickyness. One of their captors lets down their guard, drops the keys whatever and the PC's have to escape. This approach diffinatly is designed to reset the gear and money issue. I would even consider making a short list of effects that are minues to stats it does not need to be 1d3 it could be 1 or 2 points of a stat to lower the overal point buy.
CON- character loses 1d3 points of con and suffers from a wasting cough, the are pale and have bloodshot eyes and occaisionaly cough up blood (think Doc Holiday from Tombstone). Heals and restoration might remove the cough but the effects of captivity have long term effects.
STR- character loses 1d3 STR weeks of malnutrition and inactivity have a cost.
DEX- character loses 1d3 DEX Torture and confinement have stiffened limbs severed tendons.
INT- character loses 1d3 INT torture, sleep deprivation, blood loss and wacks about the head and sholders have rattled the character's focus.
WIS- character loses 1d3 WIS a new look on life has made changes to a characters outlook on things. They have grown pessiistic, cynical and doubt many things they once thought they understood. This could work in reverse too, they still lose the points but have a new found recklessness because they feel they have a new lease on life.
CHA- character loses 1d3 CHA torture, and the psych effects of captivity have left the character meek, sheepish and have all in all lost that force of personality that once was so strong.
2) The Count of Monte Cristo- The same gear, wealth and stat adjustments could be the result of betrayal of NPC (or PC that wants a new character) has resulted in the PC being taken prison and after some time are given opportunity to escape. Let them orchestrate the vengence on their betrayer as part of the remainder of the campaign.
3) Undead appocalypse- The stars align and this terrible unnatural disaster strikes the region. The dead rise and tear the living a new one. The region is in chaos, the economy is destroyed, all sorts of aftermath has effected the region (this might also explain why there is less available magic resources when they want to go item shopping next time). Let the undead include all sorts of stat draining monsters.
4) Trapped! The heroes have found their way into an impossible situation; fleeing a dragon, fire giants, or whatever is chasing them the find a way out that their persuers cannot or would not follow. Classic situation would be a dead end in a cave, clearly water keeps running out of the room but underwater, they can hear the roar of a waterfall in the distance letting them know that perhaps they can get out if the water can (scene from 13th Warrior).
There are all sorts of plot turns that can be helpful here. The key is that this is a low point that resolves in such away that they party grows after losing what they lose. Think about all the stories/movies/comics/fairy tales we love. Without the low points the story would suck. Could you imagine going from Death Star destruction to Ewoks and Death Star destruction without Luke losing a hand and Han trapped in carbonite.
In this case I would suggest trying to run with the campain. Dont take anything away but don't add any more for a bit either (no gold found this encounter). Try to buff up the baddies a little bit (add 4 ac to offset high str, add a few extra health, etc).
My first DM campaign I took a gross mestep and made the group epic level (epic-epic-epic level 70...). We had a blast RPing these sessions and the things that these guys did against the guys I created to fight them was epic and still talked about today. At one point 3 of them stole a white dragon's hoard while the other 2 were fighting it. Then they melted his ice cave until they were all fighting underwater and set a delayed iceball of some sort that flashfroze the water back to ice after they teleported away. After a few weeks we all decided to end the campain, the players basicly retiring as simi gods.
That being said, I wont even think about letting a deck of many things into my campaigns anymore (much less my "improved" version) ...
I still enjoy letting my players have some extra power though. I'm thinking about letting my next campaign rolls all 18's and see where it goes...