So, I'm joining an E6 game (epic 6, basically you stop gaining levels at 6 and just gain bonus feats from xp after that) and planning to play a Dawnflower Dervish bard. I'm having trouble picking race and feats. I wanted to be a Fetchling, but DM's restricting it to core races only.
HP: 9 (1d8 +1)
AC: 17 (10 +3 armor +4 dex)
Touch: 14; FF: 13
Str 10, Dex 16 [18], Con 12, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 16
(Assuming Human, Half-Elf, or Half-Orc for racial stat bonuses)
Saves: Fortitude +1, Reflex +6, Will +1
BAB +0; CMB +0 [+4 w/ scimitar]; CMD 14
Feats:
1 Enforcer
1 Dervish Dance [Bard]
Traits: Blade of Mercy, ??
That's the basic idea. Fights with a scimitar, mostly does nonlethal (thanks to blade of mercy) and intimidates w/ Enforcer to try and end fights without killing. It's an urban game, so doing nonlethal will presumably be helpful.
Race, I'm not sure. Dex is the most vital stat, but cha is quite important, too. But the only core race that boosts both is halfling. I don't mind dealing with lower weapon damage, but the -4 to intimidate is just not acceptable. I know of the Taunt feat, but I'd rather not have to wait till 3rd level to reliably be able to intimidate, and most enemies will be humanoids, so the main benefit of "no penalty despite how much smaller you are" will basically never pay off anymore than not being small to begin with would.
Half-Elf would give some decent boons and Skill Focus so that I can get a Familiar at 3rd level (Eldritch Heritage). Mt friend is doing just that with a Summoner; we could be siblings with the same arcane bloodline maybe. Familiar also opens up Improved Familiar (Lightning Elemental, I guess?) and Evolved Familiar, and Improved Share Spells, so it'd give me many good feat options well into the campaign.
Human has the excellent favored class option of more spells known, and my skills seem very tight (once you hit 6, you will never get another skill rank, only skill focus, etc... so I'm trying to plan my skill point expenditures as well as possible), so that's appealing. Most of all, it has the bonus feat. I figure spending it on Skill Focus and doing the familiar thing would be a waste vs. just being a Half-Elf, but... I can't find much better to use the feat towards.
Dawnflower requires having no weapon or shield in your off hand, so I naturally would like some sort of feat(s) that make use of having a free hand. First thought was Crane Wing, but that needs BAB +5, I will never have more than 4. Deflect Arrows is another option, but I have never seen a DM make much use of archers. I guess I could just carry a torch, but as a bard I can make light sources out of my weapon or send dancing lights up ahead, so that seems pretty pointless. Is there any other feats in PF to capitalize on 1H fighting? Multiclassing is not an option, I want all my bard levels. :)
So right now, default plan is human w/ bonus feat on Arcane Strike, favored class spent on an extra cantrip. But I'm not really happy with that. If there is something I could be building towards, I'd rather start right away.
So...any tips? Also, tips for the other trait? I was thinking Accelerated Drinker and just hold a potion in the other hand. But, that trait has "drinking" connotations I don't necessarily like for my character. Thanks for any help.
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Definitely be Human. In terms of Feats...hmmm. Combat Casting is always a potentially good Feat for a combat Bard. Dodge, as the beginning of the Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack chain is also cool (and thematically appropriate). But Arcane Strike is solid, too.
General advice:
I'd go Indomitable Faith for my other Trait, but then I love having a good Will Save. Mechanically, Reactionary may be a better bet.
Plan for Versatile Performance. You have it, and it's really cool. I'd plan around using it on Perform (Dance) and either Perform (Oratory) or Perform (Sing), but that's just me. This is much easier if your GM will let you reassign skill ranks when you get a new Versatile Performance. If he won't, I'd suck it up and take the non-Dance performance first, and just live without Acrobatics till 6th level to avoid wasting those precious skills or lacking Sense Motive my whole career. You'd probably be slightly better off mechanically not taking Perform (Dance) at all...but I wouldn't allow that as a GM and I doubt yours will either.
Consider taking a skill instead of the extra Cantrip. Once you can get actual spells, go for it all the way...but Cantrips (while they can be worth it) aren't always. The alternatives should be considered. Well, the skill point alternative anyway. Getting the +3 for class skill on three more skills might well be worth it for three less cantrips (or some combination of the two).
Speaking of skills, I'd max out 8 (including your two Performance skills) then get one rank in 6 others (one each level or so), though maxing out 7 and getting a rank in 12 others would also make sense (and be potentially hilarious, since you'd have a rank in damn near everything).
@Atarlost: Like I said, I will never qualify for Crane Wing. So spending feats on IUS and Dodge (latter is certainly an ok feat on its own, at least...) just to get a better defensive fighting ratio seems not worth it. And (as explained below), I will never have Acrobatics ranks, and even if Versatile Performance counts for acrobatics for fighting defensive, I won't have it till 6th level.
@Deadman: I was actually planning to do VP (Sing) at level 2 and VP (Dance) at level 6, just as you suggest. My wis is poor, so making Sense Motive a charisma skill is nice. It will greatly suck not having acrobatics till level 6, but I consider tumbling in PF to be suicide anyway, so all I'm really losing is jump and balance. I doubt the DM will let me re-assign ranks, so that combo seems the most optimal for conserving skill points (Enforcer requires an actual Intimidate rank) while having both a visual and audible performance, in case I should ever need to use the performances that require one or the other specifically.
Skills: I figure I'll start out w/o any spellcraft or detect magic (how often does that really come up at 1st level?) or UMD, and eventually max out both skills by level 6. I'll have my 2 performs, Intimidate, Stealth, and Perception (even w/ low wis, it's the best skill in the game...) maxed. One point wonders in linguistics and sleight of hand, and maybe some others. Yeah...skills will be tight. I'd like to have room for diplomacy, but my friend's eidolon will be at like +14 in it, so I can probably skip that. The eidolon's actually going to be better than me at most social skills and combat, even though it's at 1/2 progression due to master summoner... Stupid summoners...
Feats: DM said magic items may be tough to come by, so as an alternative to blowing lots of feats on a familiar, I'm considering being the party crafting whore. At least Wondrous at 3 and A&A at 5. Depends if the party is willing to pay me a small fee (like 60% market price instead of 50) or not, I suppose. Also depends if I can use my CL of 6 to craft a +1 keen scimitar or not. Keen has a CL 10 listing, I've seen varying statements on the legality of not having the listed CL.
Spring Attack could work, but between activating battle dance being a move and my friend getting haste at level 4 and planning to cast it with all his 2nd level slots, doesn't seem like it'd get much play. I was also looking at Antagonize, but it seems they've nerfed it into uselessness. Not spending a feat and my standard just to have someone shoot me from afar or target me with a spell.
Traits: I think I have narrowed down my list of choices for the other trait to these.
Maestro of the Society: +3 perform rounds/day
Reactionary: +2 Init
Magical Lineage: -1 level adjust on meta for 1 spell
Savant: +2 to one perform skill
Brute (requires Adopted): +2 Intimidate
Dominator: +2 Intimidate for demoralizing only
Strength of the Sun: +1 cha-based checks during daytime
Dominator is plainly worse than Brute, but I don't think the DM will let me be raised by Half-Orcs. Maestro of the Society seems unneeded; we are not going to have much combat. Reactionary is solid but boring. Magical Lineage is promising; my thought is if I take that, do it on Hideous Laughter or Suggestion and take Bouncing Spell at 1st level. Strength of the Sun is actually my favorite choice thematically, but like Blade of Mercy is a Saranrae religion trait, and would thus require asking the DM for a houserule to take as well... Assuming SotS is out, I think I like Savant (Sing) the best, so next level I have +2 on Bluff, Sense Motive, and Perform (Sing).
Other question: Can you use a buckler on your free arm with Dervish Dance? Seems to be a can of worms, but my AC is kinda crappy for a melee guy, I could use the help...
Ok, new plan. Went ahead and just calculated my skill points at level 6 as human w/o spending any FC on more, and put down all my skill rank needs by level 6...
(not important to read ;) )
Acrobatics 6
Appraise 1
Intimidate 1
Linguistics 1
Perception 6
Comedy 6
Dance 1
Oratory 6
Sleight of Hand 1
Spellcraft 6
Stealth 6
UMD 6
6+1+1+1+6+6+1+6+1+6+6+6 = 47
Can't believe I went that far, but this makes it easy. I'll just blow a rank in dance and intimidate for pre-reqs, and max out Comedy and Oratory for my VP at 2 and 6, and take Savant (Comedy) as my other trait. Still leaves me w/ 7 ranks to spend on other stuff, maybe more performs or something.
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For your free hand - Ring of Force Shield.
FWIW, my Dervish used Fighter - Lorewarden, but I'm sure you've considered that.
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@Deadman: I was actually planning to do VP (Sing) at level 2 and VP (Dance) at level 6, just as you suggest. My wis is poor, so making Sense Motive a charisma skill is nice. It will greatly suck not having acrobatics till level 6, but I consider tumbling in PF to be suicide anyway, so all I'm really losing is jump and balance. I doubt the DM will let me re-assign ranks, so that combo seems the most optimal for conserving skill points (Enforcer requires an actual Intimidate rank) while having both a visual and audible performance, in case I should ever need to use the performances that require one or the other specifically.
Cool. Glad we're on the same page. :)
Skills: I figure I'll start out w/o any spellcraft or detect magic (how often does that really come up at 1st level?) or UMD, and eventually max out both skills by level 6. I'll have my 2 performs, Intimidate, Stealth, and Perception (even w/ low wis, it's the best skill in the game...) maxed. One point wonders in linguistics and sleight of hand, and maybe some others. Yeah...skills will be tight.
Well, let's see: 2 Performs, Spellcraft, UMD, Per, Intim, Stlth. That's only 7. You could also max out any one Knowledge skill (Religion makes sense, with the whole Sarenrae thing) and still get a rank in 6 other skills (I'd totally have Diplomacy as one of these).
@I'd like to have room for diplomacy, but my friend's eidolon will be at like +14 in it, so I can probably skip that. The eidolon's actually going to be better than me at most social skills and combat, even though it's at 1/2 progression due to master summoner... Stupid summoners...
That...sems unlikely. On the combat anyway. It's very possible on one, maybe two social skills (though that's not what I'd focus on with the Eidolon's limited resources). In that case, don't waste a lot of points on Diplomacy, but I'd still throw one at it for a solid +7.
Feats: DM said magic items may be tough to come by, so as an alternative to blowing lots of feats on a familiar, I'm considering being the party crafting whore. At least Wondrous at 3 and A&A at 5. Depends if the party is willing to pay me a small fee (like 60% market price instead of 50) or not, I suppose. Also depends if I can use my CL of 6 to craft a +1 keen scimitar or not. Keen has a CL 10 listing, I've seen varying statements on the legality of not having the listed CL.
Could definitely be worth it, yeah.
Spring Attack could work, but between activating battle dance being a move and my friend getting haste at level 4 and planning to cast it with all his 2nd level slots, doesn't seem like it'd get much play. I was also looking at Antagonize, but it seems they've nerfed it into uselessness. Not spending a feat and my standard just to have someone shoot me from afar or target me with a spell.
Haste does indeed make that combination a lot less good. So skip it. Dodge is still potentially worth grabbing in it's own right, though.
Trait-wise, I agree with you that Savant sounds really cool.
Bucklers are specifically disallowed by Dervish Dance. And your AC isn't too bad, or won't be shortly. It goes to 18 (not bad) by next level with a Chain Shirt, and you've probably got a 20 or so by 6th level (with +1 Mithril Chain Shirt and Dex 20 from a belt). 21 or 22 with the addition of Dodge and/or Cat's Grace. As high as 26 with a UMD'd Wand of Shield, and that's ignoring the defensive awesomeness of Mirror Image.
The highest anyone else is gonna have is a theoretical Fighter with Dex 14, Dodge, Full Plate, and a Heavy Shield (both +1) who'll also have 26.
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Ok, new plan. Went ahead and just calculated my skill points at level 6 as human w/o spending any FC on more, and put down all my skill rank needs by level 6...
(not important to read ;) )
** spoiler omitted **Can't believe I went that far, but this makes it easy. I'll just blow a rank in dance and intimidate for pre-reqs, and max out Comedy and Oratory for my VP at 2 and 6, and take Savant (Comedy) as my other trait. Still leaves me w/ 7 ranks to spend on other stuff, maybe more performs or something.
I'd personally say that's probably not a good idea as either your Sense Motive is -1 for levels 1-5 or your Intimidate will be a mere +7 (and less than useful) for the same time period. It also wastes two skill ranks.
I'd go back to the original idea (max out Intimidate and Performs (Dance and Sing) and skip Acrobatics till 6th), you'll then have 9 ranks, which you could use for, say, Diplomacy and a couple of Knowledge skills at one rank and another Knowledge at maxed ranks.
For your free hand - Ring of Force Shield.
I'm pretty sure that counts as a Shield for purposes of violating Dervish Dance's rules.
FWIW, my Dervish used Fighter - Lorewarden, but I'm sure you've considered that.
Dawnflower Dervish is a lot different than Dervish Dancer.
Ok! DM has said no to ANY crafting feats. This is a "low magic setting" where "the occasional +1 sword may appear," but most items are "spread to the winds, to be found but few remember how to make them."
I'm...really glad right now that I have spells and some stuff to do besides beat things over the head... *Facepalm* Seems like melee will be not so fun, I feel bad for the barbarian...
Assuming Familiar via EH is ok, that seems like the only decent feat path now. Not sure if human or half-elf is better for going about that.
Deadman:
I plan to do Comedy as my VP at level 2, and I need the 1 rank for Enforcer, so my Intimidate will never actually suffer for this plan, only my skill point allotments. Having awful sense motive and diplomacy till level 6 is manageable, we'll have others who are decent at them.
Friend's a Half-Elf Master Summoner who took Extra Evolution, so his Eidolon has Skilled in 4 different social skills and still has his basic 2 claw attacks, which combined is better than my single attack, so I'd say he wins. :)
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Ok! DM has said no to ANY crafting feats. This is a "low magic setting" where "the occasional +1 sword may appear," but most items are "spread to the winds, to be found but few remember how to make them."
I'm...really glad right now that I have spells and some stuff to do besides beat things over the head... *Facepalm* Seems like melee will be not so fun, I feel bad for the barbarian...
Eh. It's not that bad at E6. I mean, he's not forbidding items outright, and they don't matter a huge amount in E6 anyway (we're talking +1 or +2 items at most here, and not too many of them, and Masterwork stuff is still available).
Assuming Familiar via EH is ok, that seems like the only decent feat path now. Not sure if human or half-elf is better for going about that.
Not necessarily. Dodge and Great Fortitude are both good, solid, options too, for example.
Deadman:
I plan to do Comedy as my VP at level 2, and I need the 1 rank for Enforcer, so my Intimidate will never actually suffer for this plan, only my skill point allotments. Having awful sense motive and diplomacy till level 6 is manageable, we'll have others who are decent at them.
Alright, if that's how you wanna do it.
Friend's a Half-Elf Master Summoner who took Extra Evolution, so his Eidolon has Skilled in 4 different social skills and still has his basic 2 claw attacks, which combined is better than my single attack, so I'd say he wins. :)
One attack at +6 for 1d6+7 is pretty much flat-out better than two at +4 for 1d4+3 (which he only gets on a Full Attack), and the disparity will only increase as time passes.
You could *gasp* go for the intention and leave it free. Foreign concept, I know. But you will do fine!
You could *gasp* go for the intention and leave it free. Foreign concept, I know. But you will do fine!
So helpful.
But it seems other than the impossible to reach Crane Wing and the probably not useful Deflect Arrows, there's nothing out there. Maybe i'll just make my character like Keiya from Evil Zone. At all times keep one hand in my pocket for no clear reason. He was able to make such a minor gesture seem really creepy, at least. Not sure if it'd be nearly as notable in a P&P role playing game, nor if my character's female (what I was leaning towards; seems like my gender preference for hir changes depending on slight mechanical tweaks, it's odd). Maybe instead of for creepiness, as an overconfident, "I'm out of your league, you're only worthy of the attention of one of my hands!"
Anything in the rules to force you to use material and somatic components with your hand in the open, rather than in your pocket hidden from view?
Ok, I found something to use my other hand for.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/flagbearer-local
It's not that impressive and would look REALLY dorky. But, maybe? Could just wait till level 3 and see if I want it and stick w/ Arcane Strike for now.
My first instinct upon hearing it'd be E6 Pathfinder (ie, rogues and monks suck) "low-magic" (ie, noncasters are suck and fail) game with very little combat (so much for playing that warrior type I wanted to; also hurray for casters being able to spelldump without any risks!) was to just make a witch. Since I wrote HB for them and all, and I could at least make Lelouch from Code Geas (patron being C2, and also taking the form of his familiar; who can never truly die) using Slumber and many of the spells as his "geas."
But I wanted to play a melee character, dang it. But I also didn't want to be a gimp in a campaign that favors social abilities and powerful per day resources. So, as is fitting for a bard...I hewed towards a middle road.
My ideal game would be 3E, where the tumble DCs come easy, playing a flashing somersaulting skirmishing combat acrobat in a campaign with heavy amounts of fighting. But, when life gives you lemons...you suck it up and learn to live with a pouty expression.
I guess Arcane Duelist could've worked. But then every time I used my performance to buff my weapon instead of inspiring the whole group like I also can, I'd feel guilty about it.
I can. But level 5 my inspire bonuses go up another 2, and I'd need to jump out after 4 levels to have Crane Wing's BAB requirement met. Unless you had something else in mind. Level 6 means everything goes up by +1 (BAB and saves) and i get Suggestion, so I figured if going 5 levels I may as well go for all 6.
Nicos: Pretty sure 3rd party stuff will be out.
Daryl: Sucks that there's Magical Knack to count as higher CL up to HD but no such thing for BAB. :(
Only way I could reasonably get it w/ MoMS Monk 1 (if I was willing to lose another BAB, casting progression, and Suggestion) is if I went in at exactly 5th level, feats like this:
1 or 3 Dodge
5 Imp. Unarmed Strike [Monk]
5 Crane Style
5 Crane Wing [Monk]
Well, I could do it other ways, but they would involve picking up IUS only to get it as monk anyway. I suppose 3rd level would also work. Basically has to be 3rd or 5ht level and already have Dodge.
Is it worth losing that last bard level for? It'll be really hard to tell, I don't even know how combat oriented the game will be. DM said the gameplay would depend on the party's preferences... Maybe I should take Dodge at 1st level instead of Arcane Strike just so come 3rd level if combat seems common, I have it as an option...
Also, my character is not going to be lawful, so I guess I would need Martial Artist, and Sohei would be nice, too. Stunning Fist w/ Bard 5 / Monk 1 and wis 8 isn't so hot.
EDIT: Martial Artist doesn't work with like anything... And its only conflict w/ MoMS is Perfect Self at level 20. God, I hate archetypes...