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Mike, I mentioned this briefly earlier in the thread, but it was part of a larger post.
I suggest simply selling specific racial boon certificates through the Paizo store. Right now, if I want to get a re-roll every session, I can buy a $20 shirt and wear it, and I'll have what amounts to a boon.
So, let's say I want to play an odd race. Some of them won't be available. but let's say I want to play an oread, and PFS offers an oread boon. So, I pay $10, and get a Chronicle sheet, and I can play my oread.
It's accessible to anybody, but the cost decelerates people's tendency to buy a dozen of them for their next characters. Oreads cost $10. Dwarves are free.
It probably won't go up for auction on e-bay for more than $10.
It might be xeroxed and passed around, but the same could be said for chronicle sheets now. And the check on that -- the on-line session reporting -- could act as a check on racial Chronicles: the player needs to register the character
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I did consider this but something feels wrong about it. I can't put my finger on it or put it into words. Maybe it just comes across to me as a money grab and that certainly isn't what I am looking for.
Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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Allowing it to be accessible through playing a certain scenario as a boon might work, and limits access due to the rules already in play (only one Chronicle per player), but creates the circumstance of making that a "must play" scenario once word gets out. As a further limit, access to that particular race would have to be tied into achieving specific boon on the Chronicle in question AND owning the source book (or pdf) to allow its use. Some of the Tian-themed scenarios would have been a perfect place to try that out with some of the Oriental-type races.
This is just a thought on how to allow such a Boon without involving Convention rewards. It isn't perfect, but is only meant as an example anyways. Anyone who can refine this idea so that it doesn't create the mass of non-core race PCs or create the "must play" scenario problem are welcome to make suggestions. No snark intended! I know there has to be a way... we just haven't found a way that is palatable for both the players who want to see them included and those who don't want the "Drizzt effect" to occur in Pathfinder!
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I think that any of these ideas would work but that there needs to be a one nonstandard race per player limit just to preserve the fact that Goalrion is supposed to be a human-centric world.
My favorite idea is to make the racial boon a DM reward, since it already has a precedent in the Beginner Box boon. I hope that they can implement a way to make this technically possible in the near future.
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I think that any of these ideas would work but that there needs to be a one nonstandard race per player limit just to preserve the fact that Goalrion is supposed to be a human-centric world.
My favorite idea is to make the racial boon a DM reward, since it already has a precedent in the Beginner Box boon. I hope that they can implement a way to make this technically possible in the near future.
I agree on the 1st part - limiting it to 1 non-standard race per player. This is something I have mentioned in the 5-6 threads on this subject.
I dont think it should be a GM reward. 1. I dont think only GM shold get it and 2. It may create friction at tables or local groups when only one or two players will get that opportunity.
I suggest we keep sending out suggestions along the lines of limiting saturation of non-standard races and satifying the player base.
So if anyone has ideas on the mechanics of delivering both of thes as smoothly as possible please post it here progress is being made. mids are churning....I ....feel ..the .....PFS ....mind meld ...co...ming....
LOL gotta love this game!
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Mike, if you're concerned that $10 for a race boon certificate is a money grab, I suggest bundling the Chronicle with all the information one needs o play the race. (For example, the one page from the Bestiary). That way, we could pay $10 for the single race certificate, but that would save us buying the Bestiary / ARG pdf to make the character table-legal.
I'm not married to this idea -- there might be better ones -- but it does seem to resolve a lot of the issues that people raise with other meads to provide fair, limited access to a product in high demand. And it's the only solution I've seen that relieves economic pressure to resell the boons on e-bay.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Mike, if you're concerned that $10 for a race boon certificate is a money grab, I suggest bundling the Chronicle with all the information one needs o play the race. (For example, the one page from the Bestiary). That way, we could pay $10 for the single race certificate, but that would save us buying the Bestiary / ARG pdf to make the character table-legal.
I'm not married to this idea -- there might be better ones -- but it does seem to resolve a lot of the issues that people raise with other meads to provide fair, limited access to a product in high demand. And it's the only solution I've seen that relieves economic pressure to resell the boons on e-bay.
I think the issue we'd have with this is that those of us involved in the discussion will see the value of this option, while anyone NOT involved in the discussion will just see "COOL RACES COST EXTRA!"
We'd have to decide if that perception would be worth it or not.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I like the idea of 'linking' them to GMing the adventure. A) It encourages people to take a shot at the GM chair, and b) I am GMing for the kids. :-)
I also can accept 'buy the boons'. Sure it hints at the 'free to play, more expensive to have fun' adventure model of MMORPGs, but I'm already paying to use the sage bloodline for Rey, or the Lore Master/Acrobat archtypes for <name yet to be determined>.
That being said...
Reading through this entire thread,I still haven't seen a realistic way of adding additional races for players who don't attend conventions. As I have said before, we are not opening the entire book so people can play any race they want. It simply isn't going to happen.
I am sorry to hear this is not an option. Not only does it foster the 'elitism' fears, it can spiral down the line. Blood of Angels, Blood of Fiends? Are there going to be 'planetouched feats' in there that will only be available to those lucky blokes with boons? What if there is a Kitsune/other eastern races book? Sure I'm talking hypotheticals, but this does set a precedent that I'm not too keen on seeing.
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Reading through this entire thread,I still haven't seen a realistic way of adding additional races for players who don't attend conventions. As I have said before, we are not opening the entire book so people can play any race they want. It simply isn't going to happen.I am sorry to hear this is not an option. Not only does it foster the 'elitism' fears, it can spiral down the line. Blood of Angels, Blood of Fiends? Are there going to be 'planetouched feats' in there that will only be available to those lucky blokes with boons? What if there is a Kitsune/other eastern races book? Sure I'm talking hypotheticals, but this does set a precedent that I'm not too keen on seeing.
I can't speak to this with any authority, but Mike's been saying the same thing over and over again, and I've added emphasis to his statement above to highlight something.
Personally, I've kind of been hoping that when Mike says this, he's emphasizing that the Race Creation rules won't be legal. There's nothing in that statement that states he won't allow, say, a Goblin PC, if the Goblin racial abilities are explicit in the ARG.
It's semantics, I'll give you, but there's a difference between "we're not opening any of the book" and "we're not opening the entire book."
I also know that Mike's stated on numerous occasions that he hasn't even seen the ARG yet, so he can't make any predictions about his future decision.
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Mike, if you're concerned that $10 for a race boon certificate is a money grab, I suggest bundling the Chronicle with all the information one needs o play the race. (For example, the one page from the Bestiary). That way, we could pay $10 for the single race certificate, but that would save us buying the Bestiary / ARG pdf to make the character table-legal.
The problem is, now killing the character doesn't just affect you in game it costs you $10. This is the same reason Blizzard's cash shop for Diablo3 doesn't work in hardcore mode (death is permanent).
If I think a GM fudged/made a bad ruling/targeted me vindictively/modified the encounter/failed to follow the listed tactics/misread the statblock/etc. and killed my character, sure there's the emotional attachment to the character and a sense of unfairness but once you add real world cash into the mix it becomes a whole new ballgame.
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That would be easy enough to solve by just allowing the boon to be re-used on a new character should the old one die. Not 'I got tired of this one, so I stopped playing him and made a new one', but it actually has to die in a scenario.
My question (which is really for Chris, since this was his idea) is how would this affect married couples? For example, I dont have to buy two copies of the Bestiary pdf so my wife and I can have it on both of our Kindles; we can both just use the same pdf (Right?). How would that affect this? One boon per person? So each of us could create an Oread? Once total? Either way I would be fine with, just figured it was somethign else to consider.
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I'm not enamored with the idea of buying racial boons. I don't really have a tight rational reason for it since most of my thoughts against it could be applied to buying the books, cost of attending cons, etc. I just don't have a good gut feeling about it.
That being said, I really like the idea of racial boons being "unlockable" by playing a scenario or set of scenarios where the race in question is a semi-focal point with descriptives so players can better understand its imagery. This would allow access to anyone, regardless of locale, financial availability, and even PbP and VTT players. The racial boon chronicle could be added as a separate sheet with the scenario and awarded at the conclusion assuming some goal was achieved.
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I'm not enamored with the idea of buying racial boons.
Me either - you're already buying the book.
That being said, I really like the idea of racial boons being "unlockable" by playing a scenario or set of scenarios where the race in question is a semi-focal point with descriptives so players can better understand its imagery. This would allow access to anyone, regardless of locale, financial availability, and even PbP and VTT players. The racial boon chronicle could be added as a separate sheet with the scenario and awarded at the conclusion assuming some goal was achieved.
Releasing racial boons to players of a three-part series would allow Paizo to release races one at a time, maybe one per year, to test the waters. Players would be able to access these at cons, gamedays at their local stores, or even home games. Releasing boons for other races at cons remains an option.
But more than any other reason, I like that playing a three-part scenario introduces players to that race's background and context within the campaign world.
I can also see these three-part series being INSTANTLY EXTREMELY POPULAR!
However, with the turn-around-time required to publish such a series, don't expect it to be available by the time ARG releases.
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I'm perfectly fine with the idea of racial boons being purchasable. This is my hobby and I am more than happy to spend a bit of money on my hobby. It is no different than making the choice to purchase the APG so that you can play that Witch character that you really wanted to play. If I really want to play a Tengu, here's ten dollars to the PFS fund so that I can play my Tengu character. I don't go to the conventions, so I'm not contributing my money to the campaign in that sense, so I have no real issue with shelling out the ten bucks for the racial boon.
Also, I want to point out that I hate the idea of having scenarios or scenario chains that unlock a racial boon. This is going to cause local groups to break the canon of the races being rare just as much as giving them unrestricted access. The reason is that if my local group goes out of their way to play said series of scenarios, it means that at least a couple of us really want that racial boon. Guess what character race each and every one of those players is bringing to play at the next game session, yep, that Tengu they all just unlocked.
I suspect some of the races in the book are more common than gunslingers, which are unrestricted, so I don't see an issue with allowing free access to them. From a marketing point of view I only buy books I can use, unless the artwork is really useful for my PCs, and I pretty much only play PFS, so if it's not allowable in the Society then I'm unlikely to buy it. What I certainly won't do is pay for the book and then pay again to use it.
Restricting the races to those who've reached retirement once, or granting one new race per GM star seems fine though, as I meet both those criteria, or will very shortly... :-)
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What I certainly won't do is pay for the book and then pay again to use it.
I agree with this I'm not really feeling charging for the boons although if the money went to the 'charity fund' I'll be a little more ameniable to it. $10.00 and its a one time use fee
Restricting the races to those who've reached retirement once, or granting one new race per GM star seems fine though, as I meet both those criteria, or will very shortly... :-)
The reaching 12th level seems like a good idea as well, subject to level verification from Mike. I can see him sending out a boon to the player through the local VC (if they have one) as a reward for every character that has reached 12th lvl. I know that the Eyes of Ten 12th lvl scenarios already have a boon that is applied to your next character so not sure if he can reapply this. But I wouldnt have an issue.
As for one race per GM star- well who gets the race? Lets say I'm a 2 star GM to I get two race boons for myself or do I get two race boons to give to my local group?
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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As for one race per GM star- well who gets the race? Lets say I'm a 2 star GM to I get two race boons for myself or do I get two race boons to give to my local group?
I believe the idea was for the GM to use it. His local group members would just have to step up and GM if they wanted their own.
Which sounds like a nice incentive, to be honest.
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I would say that you get the boon for your DM stars, but I guess you could give it away if you want. The point is to reward those who take time to consistently DM with something nice.
As Mike said above, there is no system in place for that currently, and no ETA when a system like that will be available. So we would need something that works in the short term, and is currently doable.
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I would say that you get the boon for your DM stars, but I guess you could give it away if you want. The point is to reward those who take time to consistently DM with something nice.
I guess that would be okay since after your 2nd star it takes a while to earn more. If thats the case then the GM's should be able to give away the boons and choose the race they want (based on whats approved). More importantly, they should be tracked somehow.
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I would say that you get the boon for your DM stars, but I guess you could give it away if you want. The point is to reward those who take time to consistently DM with something nice.As Mike said above, there is no system in place for that currently, and no ETA when a system like that will be available. So we would need something that works in the short term, and is currently doable.
Dan,
Then the idea of the Race boon awarded as a chronicle sheet (like it is already) except that its reported on the database.
This way the IT dept can add the Race boon like they add the Scenarios.
Does anyone agree/disagree? And why?
Keep the ideas coming.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Here's an idea:
Suppose Mike decides that races X, Y and Z would be power-level appropriate for the campaign. He then gives each VC the ability to print boons for those races at will. The VCs are in turn left to decide who "deserves" a race boon. Maybe they have a drawing each quarter, maybe they give it to someone who stepped up to GM cold to accommodate a table full of walk-ins, maybe they give them away on birthdays, maybe they give them to someone they just know will make a cool character, etc.
I can't imagine any of our VCs would abuse that power, it keeps things limited but accessible, and doesn't require extra purchases.
Thoughts?
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I would say that you get the boon for your DM stars, but I guess you could give it away if you want. The point is to reward those who take time to consistently DM with something nice.As Mike said above, there is no system in place for that currently, and no ETA when a system like that will be available. So we would need something that works in the short term, and is currently doable.Dan,
Then the idea of the Race boon awarded as a chronicle sheet (like it is already) except that its reported on the database.
This way the IT dept can add the Race boon like they add the Scenarios.
Does anyone agree/disagree? And why?
Keep the ideas coming.
It's a good idea, but I think what Dan means is that there's no way to automate the process at present - it would require someone (and it would probably fall to Mike or one of the IT or Customer Service folks) manually going through the PFS database and determining who has earned a new star since the last time they looked, then adding the boon. That's an incredibly time-consuming process, given that there are ~50,000 entries in the PFS player database (based on the PFS registration numbers currently being handed out)
Workload-wise, it's not realistic until the process can be automated, which is on the list, but not high in terms of priority.
(Yes, I know that a database query could be programmed to highlight every new star, but then it still becomes part of someone's job to run that query on a regular basis.)
Here's an idea:
Suppose Mike decides that races X, Y and Z would be power-level appropriate for the campaign. He then gives each VC the ability to print boons for those races at will. The VCs are in turn left to decide who "deserves" a race boon. Maybe they have a drawing each quarter, maybe they give it to someone who stepped up to GM cold to accommodate a table full of walk-ins, maybe they give them away on birthdays, maybe they give them to someone they just know will make a cool character, etc.
I can't imagine any of our VCs would abuse that power, it keeps things limited but accessible, and doesn't require extra purchases.
Thoughts?
I like it, but it doesn't address the concerns of those who don't have a local VC yet.
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I think this whole discussion started based on the fact that there are still relatively few places covered by a VC. Your idea is a perfectly good short-term fix I guess, but I think that the best long term solution is to eventually be able to tie it to DMing.
Where I live, the only possible way for me to participate in PFS is online, and I can't imagine that I am the only person in this situation. The optimal solution for distributing racial boons would allow people even in my extreme situation the chance to get a racial boon while still keeping them special. Having it tied to DMing accomplishes both of those things, as well as maybe giving people incentive to DM more which can only be a good thing.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I think this whole discussion started based on the fact that there are still relatively few places covered by a VC. Your idea is a perfectly good short-term fix I guess, but I think that the best long term solution is to eventually be able to tie it to DMing.
Where I live, the only possible way for me to participate in PFS is online, and I can't imagine that I am the only person in this situation. The optimal solution for distributing racial boons would allow people even in my extreme situation the chance to get a racial boon while still keeping them special. Having it tied to DMing accomplishes both of those things, as well as maybe giving people incentive to DM more which can only be a good thing.
I *think* you're talking about my idea, so I'll go ahead and respond.
A couple of thoughts:
1) The number of people who have a VC is probably greater than the number of people who can reach conventions and similar events, so it would still be an improvement for the time being, right?
2) Mike's been bringing on new VCs like crazy. It's obvious he's trying to increase coverage, so I think it should work out.
3) If you're GMing online a lot, then (if we went with my idea) you could probably make a case for yourself with your nearest VC, and they could see how much great work you're doing out in the "wilderness", and maybe he/she would throw you a bone.
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3) If you're GMing online a lot, then (if we went with my idea) you could probably make a case for yourself with your nearest VC, and they could see how much great work you're doing out in the "wilderness", and maybe he/she would throw you a bone.
Most of them are pretty reasonable, unless they're putting their respective Venture-Lieutenants back in our cages or otherwise abusing us.
Oops; I don't think I was supposed to post about that...
Director of Brand Strategy
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Prompted by today's blog, I looked through the PDF of the final book and there are tons of options in this book for anyone playing the following races:
- Dwarf
- Elf
- Gnome
- Half-Elf
- Half-Orc
- Halfling
- Human
Anyone with an existing race boon, or who gets one in the future (regardless of method of distribution) will have the option to use alternate race traits from the following races*:
- Aasimar
- Dhampir
- Ifrit
- Oread
- Sylph
- Tengu
- Tiefling
- Undine
If we open up other races in the future that also have alternate race traits presented in this book, such as goblins, kitsune, catfolk, or gillmen**, a player with such access can use any legal alternate race traits presented in this book for those races too.
As I said before, everyone who plays a character with a race (read: all players) can find something their PC could possibly use in this book. But, just like only members of one class ever qualify for Weapon Specialization, not every PC will qualify to take all the racial options, archetypes, feats, spells, and equipment presented in this book. No matter what race a given PC is, whether core or non-core, that PC is only ever going to find one section of one chapter of this book useful.
If folks want to discuss how the campaign disseminates non-core races to players, that's really a different issue than what we make legal in the Advanced Race Guide, and should probably be its own thread.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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It would be a definite improvement, and to be fair I think that there is at least one VC who I have played with online a few times.
I think that your idea is quite a good one and I would be very happy if it were implemented, I just don;t think it is the optimal solution.
Thanks! And I agree; it's not a stopping point, it's a starting point.
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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I'm not enamored with the idea of buying racial boons. I don't really have a tight rational reason for it since most of my thoughts against it could be applied to buying the books, cost of attending cons, etc. I just don't have a good gut feeling about it.
That being said, I really like the idea of racial boons being "unlockable" by playing a scenario or set of scenarios where the race in question is a semi-focal point with descriptives so players can better understand its imagery. This would allow access to anyone, regardless of locale, financial availability, and even PbP and VTT players. The racial boon chronicle could be added as a separate sheet with the scenario and awarded at the conclusion assuming some goal was achieved.
Hey, Bob likes my idea! *self-hug*
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It's a good idea, but I think what Dan means is that there's no way to automate the process at present - it would require someone (and it would probably fall to Mike or one of the IT or Customer Service folks) manually going through the PFS database and determining who has earned a new star since the last time they looked, then adding the boon. That's an incredibly time-consuming process, given that there are ~50,000 entries in the PFS player database (based on the PFS registration numbers currently being handed out)
Workload-wise, it's not realistic until the process can be automated, which is on the list, but not high in terms of priority.
(Yes, I know that a database query could be programmed to highlight every new star, but then it still becomes part of someone's job to run that query on a regular basis.)
If it was done this way, it wouldnt have to be anyone at Paizo's job to go through the database. If this was the way it was handled, and you have a level 12 character, you could ask your VO to email Mike/Mark on your behalf, asking them to verify you have a level 12 character, and would like a racial boon.
They check the single entry, verify, send the boon to the VO who sends it off to the player. Done.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Anyone with an existing race boon, or who gets one in the future (regardless of method of distribution) will have the option to use alternate race traits from the following races*:
- Aasimar
- Dhampir
- Ifrit
- Oread
- Sylph
- Tengu
- Tiefling
- Undine
*wince* This is what is eating at me. That the book is 'unlocked' at two seperate levels under the current (and proposed future) systems.
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It's a good idea, but I think what Dan means is that there's no way to automate the process at present - it would require someone (and it would probably fall to Mike or one of the IT or Customer Service folks) manually going through the PFS database and determining who has earned a new star since the last time they looked, then adding the boon. That's an incredibly time-consuming process, given that there are ~50,000 entries in the PFS player database (based on the PFS registration numbers currently being handed out)
Workload-wise, it's not realistic until the process can be automated, which is on the list, but not high in terms of priority.
(Yes, I know that a database query could be programmed to highlight every new star, but then it still becomes part of someone's job to run that query on a regular basis.)
If it was done this way, it wouldnt have to be anyone at Paizo's job to go through the database. If this was the way it was handled, and you have a level 12 character, you could ask your VO to email Mike/Mark on your behalf, asking them to verify you have a level 12 character, and would like a racial boon.
They check the single entry, verify, send the boon to the VO who sends it off to the player. Done.
Two thoughts. (I'm not trying to be belligerent here, and I'm also not being deliberately obtuse. Call it Devil's Advocate if you like.)
1) What happens for those who don't know who their local VO is? Or don't have one? Would Robert and I be fielding requests from Montreal? Nova Scotia? Greenland? (Yes, I know the last is possibly ridiculous.)
2) The original request, I thought, was for GM stars to be the trigger. That's a much heavier potential load of emails, and while it would be relatively easy for me to handle this for my local FLGS open game GMs, it'd be more complicated for me to deal with Home Games locally.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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*wince* This is what is eating at me. That the book is 'unlocked' at two seperate levels under the current (and proposed future) systems.
Again, regardless of how you get access to a non-core race, which is another topic, only one section of this book will ever be open to any given PC, because a PC can only have one race. So what difference does it make if that section is the tengu section or the elf section or the human section? Every player of every race we ever make available in any way will be able to use this book for every one of their characters should they choose to do so.
When we create a new character on the PFS site just have a tick box like the factions to select an unusual race. You can only create x characters with that tick box selected, where x is equal to the number of GM stars you have. If you want a bit more resilience then add the pdf of a special chronicle to that person's downloads, perhaps with the new character number included. It could be a 'Thank you for GMing x adventures boon'.
Or alternatively for each star you get an option on the character list page to select a new race. Once selected its fixed but you can create as many characters of that race as you want. You need to get another star to unlock another race.
A lot of PFS runs on the honour system anyway, so it doesn't need to be all that complicated.
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Mark, I understand your point that you're trying to separate the issue of racial boons and the advanced race guide that is coming out in the near future. I can understand why you would want to be very clear in separating the issues because the book has uses for everyone regardless of whether or not they have access to all of the races presented in the book. I do not however agree that their needs to be two separate threads to discuss the issues. The publication of the Advanced Race Guide has simply raised the issue that many of us have with the current system by which the PFS staff distributes access to the non-core races. That is what this thread is ultimately about, and the connection to the ARG is simply that if we can never make a (insert non-core race here) than we're not all that interested in purchasing the ARG. And you can argue that is silly, because there is lots of core race material in there, but some of us still won't be that interested in purchasing it.
To me the "only a Fighter has access to weapon specialization" point holds very little water. It is absolutely a true statement, but there is a distinct difference between that and say some cool new tengu racial trait. If I just absolutely love the weapon specialization feat, and the idea of a mighty warrior that focuses on being the greatest long-swordsman in history, I can roll up a fighter and beginning building a PC that can utilize that feat. Unfortunately, if I absolutely love some feat specific to Tengu or Aasimar because I love the character concept that I can build around that, I cannot do that because I wasn't able to procure the appropriate boon. We love to have options, and we understand that it is an organized play environment and you have every right to say that we cannot play non-core races. That does not mean we have to like it, and have to agree that the some players should be allowed use of options from a book that we do not, despite having bought the book just like that other player.
I honestly hope that we can come up with some method to expand access to the non-core races because I love diversity in my gaming world, and it's not like these would be crazy made up races, they are just more rare than the core races.
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Two thoughts. (I'm not trying to be belligerent here, and I'm also not being deliberately obtuse. Call it Devil's Advocate if you like.)
1) What happens for those who don't know who their local VO is? Or don't have one? Would Robert and I be fielding requests from Montreal? Nova Scotia? Greenland? (Yes, I know the last is possibly ridiculous.)
2) The original request, I thought, was for GM stars to be the trigger. That's a much heavier potential load of emails, and while it would be relatively easy for me to handle this for my local FLGS open game GMs, it'd be more complicated for me to deal with Home Games locally.
You dont sound beligerent. ;)
1) I would imagine they could put a line in the OP Guide about contacting your local VO for help. If they dont have one, the guide lists all the VCs. The player could choose the closest one and contact them about it. Yes, it might be outside their area, but why not try to help them?
2)My bad, got it mixed up.
One option is that Mike has said that he gets a list of all the 3,4,and 5 star GMs every so often (in the How many 4 and 5 star GMs do we have thread). I would imagine it wouldnt be that hard to get a list of all the GMs who have at least 1 star. Sure the list would be long, but even if you assume there are 30,000 players in PFS worldwide (new player numbers I got just the other day were around 29000, not 50000, so I think your number might be off), and even if you assumed5 5% of those have at least 1 star, the list wouldnt be that long, lol.
Given that that list is still pretty long, they could make it for 2+ stars only.
I dunno, Im just brainstorming.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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*wince* This is what is eating at me. That the book is 'unlocked' at two seperate levels under the current (and proposed future) systems.Again, regardless of how you get access to a non-core race, which is another topic, only one section of this book will ever be open to any given PC, because a PC can only have one race. So what difference does it make if that section is the tengu section or the elf section or the human section? Every player of every race we ever make available in any way will be able to use this book for every one of their characters should they choose to do so.
Mark,
I find the argument you make her false, and to be honest a little insulting to me.The ARG is (right now) the only book will have two tiers of access. To say that it isn't the issue because 'you only get one race' is a distraction from the issues raised by myself and others.
The issue doesn't change that the parts of the book are being allowed for some people but not for others. As was suggested above, it would be akin to allowing some players to use Words of power or Armor as Damage Reduction but not others.
"Every player of every race we ever make available in any way will be able to use this book for every one of their characters should they choose to do so." I believe this is what would be called a 'straw man'.
The issue is not for characters that currently exist. Nor is anyone arguing that point. The issue is that Pathfinder Society is deciding to reward players who already have a boon more than the boon already gave them, by adding access to material that others cannot have. The issue is also the disincentive for other players of PFS to purchase the book, because they can't use all of the book, because they weren't in the right place at the right time.
as I stated elsewhere, I'm a superscriber, have been since Burnt Offerings. I'll still be one after this (as long as my budget can take it.) Others have said that they will skip the book if they can't use the new races. (again, no one is arguing the race creation rules so please don't claim that as an example) Is sales the only reason to open something up? No. But by making a 'two tier' product for PFS, it sets an ugly precedent.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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I just don't see the two-tiered aspect of it the same way you do. The Additional Resources entry for this book will likely read (with a few exceptions I don't know about yet cause I haven't read the book) "All feats, traits, spells, archetypes, racial abilities, and equipment in chapters 1 and 2 are legal for play. A character must meet all racial prerequisites in order to use a given rules element in Pathfinder Society Organized Play." That seems about as open as we can make anything. What you and others seem to be arguing about is how we distribute and make available additional races, which has nothing to do with this book specifically. It's only tangentially related because having the prerequisites to take a given rules element from the ARG depend on having access to these special boons. We're happy to hear what folks would like to see change in terms of the distribution of such boons, but any changes we make to that are not likely to affect what we allow into the campaign from this book.
What you describe as a two-tiered system already exists. The non-core races in the Bestiary and Bestiary 2 are not open to a vast majority of players in the campaign, even if they buy those books. A player with a race boon, however, has access to this second tier of material that becomes legal for him. So the precedent's already been set and again goes back to how race boons are distributed and not what material is and isn't made available through the Additional Resources list.
Here are the options as I see them based on our current method of distributing race boons:
1) The proposed "it's all open but you need to have a PC of a given race in order to use it" system.
2) Only the material related to the core races is legal from this book. players with non-core races don't get to use extra options for the races they can already play.
3) You can now play any of the races in chapters 1 or 2 without the need for a Chronicle but if you get or got a Chronicle granting you access to those you can still use it if you want to carry that extra piece of paper around.
Of these three, 1 looks like the best option to me.
we are playing one of a kind human beings. why can't we have noncore races?
they should be available to everyone who buys the book.
maybe with restrictions on the truly savage races. but the human crossbreed races should be fine.
races i have no problem with allowing unrestricted access to
Aasimaar
Tiefling
Suli
Fetchling
Undine
Ifrit
Oread
Sylph
Races allowable with a starting faction restriction at most though i have no problem with allowing open access to most of these either
Tengu
Nagaji
Samasarang
Wayang
Kitsune
Catfolk
Changeling
Ratfolk
Vanara
Vishkanya
Races that should have a Gming star requirement
Kobolds
Hobgoblins
Stryx
Normal Drow
Duergar
Goblin
Full Orc
Gillman
Merfolk
races that generally should be banned
Drow nobles
Svirfneblin
Anthropomorphic Awakened Animal
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Adding print outs in the book isn't going to work. Giving out special codes won't work because there is no infrastructure in place to facilitate such a thing. Likewise, currently offering downloads to be placed in a GMs account when they earn a star isn't available because the infrastructure isn't in place to make it work correctly. I know because I asked my first week on the job.
I will continue watching this thread for other ideas.
But there is a similar infrastructure that is in place that I think would work well for the purchase the ARG get a non-core race, the Pathfinder Tales infrastructure. Make the boon/chronicle available to everyone as a free download. They then get to choose one race and have another GM sign off and record/report it once they have shown them proof of purchase. Treat it as any other module that gets recorded to their PFS account. It's simple and easy and there's a check against people from going print silly with the racial boons. Yes, people could cheat, but they can do that with the Pathfinder Tales boons as well.
I really think that would work and settle a lot of potential arguments.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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(Hitting a lot of posts here)
Mark,
That you don't see it as the same issue, doesn't mean it's not the same issue.
I've never read (accepting I might have missed a post) an answer to if you need Bestiary X to play race Y. I assume (never having a character with an animal companion) you need said bestiaries to get said animal companion.
In previous cases, something has been denied in the other core books it has been for balance issues and has been denied universally. Denying access to the new races for some/most people because you want to keep something 'cool' to hand out at big events is completely different than denying 'craft X feats' because of a balance issue. I've argued in the past that the 'exclusive con items' should be opened up after a sufficient time lapse. Let the con goers have their shinies, then open it up to the rest of us who can't make it to the cons for one reason or another. I cheered the release of The Midnight Mauler for just that reason.
Mike,
Was there an explosion of gunslingers oracles and magi when those books came out? Has the ninja replaced the rogue in 'skill monkey' popularity? If not, why do you believe that the society will be overwhelmed with tieflings, aasimar and tengu? (Oh my!) Speaking just for myself, I have three characters. Talyn (who is a Magi, but the class and I don't 'fit' well) Rey (Who's a sage bloodline sorcerer, without the sage bloodline would have been a wizard/evoker) and <name to be determined> (The rogue I'm putting first steps GMing credit towards). I'll be busy with them for quite a while as they're all low level. What I want is the option to take GM credit and 'bank' it in an 'exotic' (Catfolk Samurai, Tiefling sorcerer, etc.) Personally speaking, I enjoy low level adventures and DMing, and am pretty sure that if the Columbus area sees growth I'll be running first steps over and over again. I'm fine with that, and with a Human Samurai, Human sorcerer, etc etc. What I'm not fine with is the continued segmentation of the books for a 'coolness factor'. I'd have loved to have run Beginner's Box for the niece and nephew for the 'get out of death free' boon, but it was a Christmas gift, and I couldn't get access to the scenarios anyway, until after the fact. (Now I'm just keeping the scenarios for the kids to use, get their classmates involved hopefully). I grumbled then, but accepted it and moved on. I'm sticking to my guns that your decision is a mistake.
Shivok,
I'm passionate about my gaming, and Pathfinder is the game I choose. I fought long and hard against Concentration being removed (but accepted the system) fought against 'ninja-as-advanced-class' (Still think it should have been an archtype) and fight against this with as much passion. I care enough about my hobby to drive 160 miles round trip every two weeks to pick up the niece and nephew. I could just go up to their place and play at the table, but I want them to have the same kind of experiences I had. (With close adult supervision)
Madclaw,
I could kiss you. I never even thought about that (and I have all the pathfinder tales, "Superscriber.")