He's got a -2 strength modifier and he wants to take a level in Ranger just to get martial proficiency with a bow. Why? Because he doesn't want to use a crossbow since that would eat up his movement in reloading. Also, he's basically obsessed with being a skill monkey and wants that +4 skill points and other class skills pretty badly.
Am I alone in thinking that taking a level in ranger is going to do absolutely nothing for him? Esp at low level.
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I think it's not a very optimized choice, but it is his choice. Let him play his own character and learn from his mistakes. It is unlikely that this particular option will prove fatal. If it proves to be unfun, then he can talk to the GM about fixing the problem.
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Well, you could point out to him that as a Witch, his primary ability score should be intelligence. A good witch at level 1, assuming all goes well, ought to have 6 skills s/he can max out, and this'll only increase, making them a fairly decent skill monkey (better than a sorcerer or a cleric, anyway). As for the "crossbow problem" he's got, I'd point out that although it does eat up a move action...taking a level in ranger would eat up an entire rank in spellcasting, cut into the DC of his hexes (the real reason to play a witch and WANT to have that move action), and generally veer him in the wrong direction for the type of class he's playing. If he REALLY wants that proficiency, I recommend a house-rule I used back in 3.5, wherein i realized that surrendering a feat to be able to use one weapon was a little...ew. So, i decided that a character who wants to learn how to properly use a weapon must do so, in other words, pick up that weapon and use it. A certain number of uses, decided by the DM, would determine that the character has achieved proficiency in that particular weapon. i usually ran that if you can use that weapon successfully ten times, then you get the weapon proficiency. Or, alternatively, have him pay 2,000 gold for lessons. Why 2,000? Because back in 3.5, there used to be a type of enchantment that makes a weapon usable by anyone as if they were proficient, and it's a +1 bonus...
EDIT: Nope, Bob actually has a point, which I completely missed (like seeing the cheese but not the mousetrap i guess). It is, in the end, his choice. You can discourage him, but if he's really raring to go at it, let him. If he likes it, great. If not...well, work with him to fix the problem.
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I have a witch/ranger build that I constructed specifically to be like Nimue, the huntress/witch from Arthurian legend. Haven't played her yet, but the concept of a bow-wielding witch is kind of evocative. Don't try to dissuade your friend from doing something interesting or fun - but helping the player optimize (as much as it can be) the concept might be a useful way you can help.
Potentially more HP, more skill points, better ref and fort saves (but loose some will), more class skills, more proficiencies (but still cannot wear armor without risking ASF)...
Hmm... I wouldn't have any problem with a co-player wanting to multiclass witch/ranger. I can see some benefits of that mix in certain campaigns.
I personally don't care for class "dipping" to get specific things like weapon proficiencies and some few additional skill points, but I can see why some people like that.
Why do you care? Are you worried he will drag the party down?
A level of ranger has many benefits. It would round out his saves very nicely, and provide a large number of additional class skills.
It gives armor (and shield) proficiency, which would set him up for arcane armor training.
Favored enemy can be very useful even if just used to give skill bonuses.
Taking a single level of ranger to use a bow is a total dead-end for him however. He would be much better off just using a wand of magic missile or scorching ray or other item. I think there are great ways to use witch/ranger to make some sort of eldritch knight, but a single level dip for a character with a -2 str modifier isn't it.
I am pretty easy going with weapon proficiencies, especially for non full BAB classes. So the witch can use a bow. It's highly unlikely that the witch will be a great archer. Let him use a bow. It's not going to unbalance the game.
Pretty much, In PF, multiclassing is a bad idea.
But this is a very bad idea. We have a witch who picked elf for the longbow and burnt two feats. Also a srt of 12. For a while, she was occ plinking with bow. Then as more spells and hexes came along the plinking made less and less sense.
Now, that's with a elf, so free LB. And a STR of +1, not -2. But still a bad idea. He's now cursing that he lost 2 con and two feats going for that idea.
Or maybe even go Arcane Archer?
Assuming your friend is ok with the -2 penalty to damage from using a bow vs a crossbow due to his strength, he's obviously made his decision and should be allowed to stick with it. The ranger level does provide some benefits, even if they're not precisely those he is looking for.
He's had trouble with building poorly performing characters in the past. The last character he made was in 4e with some mage (can't remember the exact class) but it was horribly built, spent like 3-4 feats on skill focuses or something when he clearly did NOT need them. He ended up having subpar attack which just made him use magic missile ALL the time even when he had other spells to use.
In 4e that was okay because I had a Slayer that was dishing out unbelievable damage. But this is Pathfinder, where we REALLY need a spellcaster, we've got an Inquisitor but they're offhand spellcasting. It's far easier to die.
He's clearly not looked too far ahead at his character concept in the future. I don't think he realizes his BAB is not going to go much anywhere and that by lvl 6-7 his bow won't get used much. One of his traits lets him use character level for caster level, but I think he's fixated on this bow too much and this is going to end up like magic missile all over again where he squanders his actions.
There's benefits to Ranger, but I don't think he's taking a level in Ranger for the right reasons I guess is what I'm saying.
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He's a Witch, and wants to do something cool and useful every turn? Point him at the Slumber Hex. Tell him to grab that, and potentially take out (not just damage) one enemy every turn. Even if that's all he does, it's still pretty useful.
Also point out that he's doing almost literally two times as much damage now as he would be with a bow (d8=4.5, -2 makes it 2.5). That might also help to dissuade him.
Alternatively, just suggest he make a new character, this one a Ranger, if that would make him happier.
We already have a Ranger and a Bow using Inquisitor, so I'd rather avoid it if possible. I don't think he wants to make a Ranger build, he wants to go spellcaster, but taking levels in Ranger will just make his spellcaster less powerful.
Idk, I told him that a crossbow does more damage than a regular bow, but he's fixated on being able to get movement.
I'll suggest slumber hex, he's already picked something plus flight hex. The problem is the party also needs him to have healing hex. So I think it's going to be difficult to persuade him that flight hex will not do him as much good as slumber/healing.
Is this something I should mention to our DM?
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We already have a Ranger and a Bow using Inquisitor, so I'd rather avoid it if possible.
Idk, I told him that a crossbow does more damage than a regular bow, but he's fixated on being able to get movement.
I'll suggest slumber hex, he's already picked something plus flight hex. The problem is the party also needs him to have healing hex. So I think it's going to be difficult to persuade him that flight hex will not do him as much good as slumber/healing.
Point out that Slumber is weapon that he can use, then move. Also point out that Flight doesn't actually let you fly till 5th level, and he can just grab it then. Or spend a Feat on Extra Hex. That's actually almost never a bad idea for a Witch.
Point out that Slumber is weapon that he can use, then move. Also point out that Flight doesn't actually let you fly till 5th level, and he can just grab it then. Or spend a Feat on Extra Hex. That's actually almost never a bad idea for a Witch.We already have a Ranger and a Bow using Inquisitor, so I'd rather avoid it if possible.
Idk, I told him that a crossbow does more damage than a regular bow, but he's fixated on being able to get movement.
I'll suggest slumber hex, he's already picked something plus flight hex. The problem is the party also needs him to have healing hex. So I think it's going to be difficult to persuade him that flight hex will not do him as much good as slumber/healing.
He did, we're at first level. 2nd level witch is much more valuable for his character than 1st level ranger. But I don't know how to communicate that. His character is very flavorful, but mechanically, is going to start sucking.
If his main concern is that he doesn't want to trade his move action for reloading the crossbow, then get him a repeating crossbow and half a dozen reloading cartridges. That will get him through five rounds of combat and with him hexing or healing, that means he'll be able to fire his crossbow whenever he really needs to for most fights.
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He did, we're at first level. 2nd level witch is much more valuable for his character than 1st level ranger. But I don't know how to communicate that. His character is very flavorful, but mechanically, is going to start sucking.
Just tell him flat out "Listen, I know this system. In this system, if you multiclass at all, you're going to be really ineffective, and the other PCs will get to do most of the cool stuff, while you sit aroiund being useless. That's probably not gonna be fun, so don't do it."
Assuming you have more experience than he does at the system, he should believe you. If he doesn't, offer to do a demonstration where the two versions of the character fight, and prove it.
If his main concern is that he doesn't want to trade his move action for reloading the crossbow, then get him a repeating crossbow and half a dozen reloading cartridges. That will get him through five rounds of combat and with him hexing or healing, that means he'll be able to fire his crossbow whenever he really needs to for most fights.
I also suggested this. But really, I realized that once we hit 4th level, he SHOULD be using his hexes every round, not a crossbow.
We have 2 bow users, and he's basically trying to stick his toe into archery despite being a spellcaster. Once the Ranger's and Inquisitors BAB starts to really outclass his, that bow he is using will be worthless.
Commando, so let him get a repeating crossbow and "stick his toe" into ranged attacks. Then when he realizes that his hexes are doing more than his crossbow, he hasn't wasted a class level by dipping into ranger.
(Not that I'm saying a ranger level dip is wasted, but for the stated purposes here it is.)
Again, I don't see why the GM just doesn't let him have a bow proficiency or the player can't just pick one of the traits that lets him gain bow proficiency.
He won't be able to afford it for another couple of levels anyways.
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Tell him
"Dude, how about you just take rapid reload so you can reload as a free action"
or
"Dude, why don't you just take the Weapon Proficiency feat"
or
"Dude, your a moron"
i have done all of the above at some point
Or maybe even go Arcane Archer?An interesting point, although I'm not sure witch is the best spellcasting choice for arcane archer...but then again, who can say? He could always go witch to get one or two really nice hexes and then go with it as a full ranger afterward...
He woukld need to be Elf or Half-Elf for that. The Former would come with free longbow proficiency to begin with. So while arcane archer would be a great idea, its unlikely he is eligible for that.
Well if your friend is comfortable with the -2 but wants to reload fast I believe slings are on the witches weapon list. No feats and no dipping.
That said a level of ranger has a number of great benefits.
Barbarian level?
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1) You do not NEED an arcane spellcaster in Pathfinder. The whole point of the game is that the DM is designing adventures to help your characters shine. If he purposefully makes an adventure where an arcane spellcaster is a necessity, knowing that you don't have one, he's being a jerk.
2) Being one level behind in spellcasting isn't that big of a deal. It just isn't. Let him have his ranger level, and if he regrets it later, talk to the DM about a rebuild.
3) Arcane Spellcasters, especially witches, aren't usually built around damage dealing ability. Remind him that witches are buffers/debuffers, to the point of ridiculousness. He doesn't have to deal damage to be effective (unlike most cases in 4e).
Or maybe he just wants to play the flavor he wants. If you have to have a specific "kind" of party, play a video game. I had a Ranger/Rogue that worked nicely, even with one of each in the group.
He woukld need to be Elf or Half-Elf for that. The Former would come with free longbow proficiency to begin with. So while arcane archer would be a great idea, its unlikely he is eligible for that.Or maybe even go Arcane Archer?An interesting point, although I'm not sure witch is the best spellcasting choice for arcane archer...but then again, who can say? He could always go witch to get one or two really nice hexes and then go with it as a full ranger afterward...
Incorrect. The elf requirement for Arcane Archer was removed in an errata. It's been said, although I don't have a link, that they don't like having classes restricted to certain races.
In the end, you should probably just let him make his bad decision if he won't listen to your initial arguments. Saves you a lot of trouble and might teach him a valuable lesson when he tries to actually shoot his bow and ends up feeling useless. When I started, I made some pretty terrible character builds thinking they'd be awesome. We learn from mistakes quite well.
BTW, why does the group "need" him to have healing hex? It's only once per ally per day and by 4th level, will be insufficient for in combat healing. Just buy wands of CLW (the whole party, don't make one guy pay for them). Don't make him waste a feat/class feature on what a wand can basically do.
Why is everyone's advice "just buy a wand of CLW" to me? How is a first level party suppose to afford that? (Which, at first level, healing is arguably most important considering how precious few HP we have). Besides which, it's a money sink. In the long run, if we have someone who can do in-between battle healing, it saves a lot more gold for the whole party to spend on magic items that don't use themselves up.
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Why is everyone's advice "just buy a wand of CLW" to me? How is a first level party suppose to afford that? (Which, at first level, healing is arguably most important considering how precious few HP we have). Besides which, it's a money sink. In the long run, if we have someone who can do in-between battle healing, it saves a lot more gold for the whole party to spend on magic items that don't use themselves up.
In fairness, you are now 2nd level. Have you not yet acquired 150 GP a piece?
Though, on the other hand, I do agree with you to some extent on the use of actual healers...but a Wand wil see you through at least a level or so until he gets another level.
You ideally have a cleric for healing at levels 1-2. With a witch, you'd use your spell slots on CLW and rely on slumber for offense, I suppose. But don't burn a feat for something wands will be taking care of by 3rd level. You should not be fighting much at 1st level, because w/o a cleric, 1st level parties really can't handle a long day of fighting.
And the wand costs some money, but divided between the party it's not that bad. And unlike the hex can be used repatedly on the same ally.
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i agree with most of the above solutions.
spending a feat on rapid reload
taking a repeating crossbow
using hexes, especially slumber, a sleeping target can be coup de graced. and will is the most common monster bad save.
buying a damage dealing low level wand (like magic missile)
buying a wand of cure light wounds, i'm sure that with 5 second level PCs, that you could each pitch 150 gold pieces.
other things i can suggest.
pitch in that 150 each 5 ways (750) for a wand of infernal healing. (or lesser vigor if 3.5 material is allowed)
taking the prehensile hair hex, it's crappy, but it's an intellegence based weapon. your key stat. it has 10 foot reach/threaten adjacent and can be used (ineffectually) for intellegence based trips. it can eventually become usable in every encounter by 5th level
try to manipulate terrain features, knocking tables over for cover, dispelling invisibility with bags of flour, using your limited evocations (if you have any) to collapse pillars or roofs on your foes, setting up difficult terrain by repositioning corpses or taking a spiked gauntlet, moving into flank and using aid another.
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... if he wants a bow, then let him play an elf, problem solved
now if he was doing some wierd 10/10 with ranger build. let him know he better be prepared to die alot.
i can see some benefits to the elf
enhanced dexterity and intellegence, the dexterity enhances initiative, armor class, reflex saves, your accuracy with a bow, your CMD, and a few nice skills. not that big in volume, but it stacks
free stacking spell penetration
free bow proficiency
low light vision
a nifty stacking perception bonus
better access to initiative enhancing traits
all at the cost of a really painful constitution penalty that will hurt your hit points quite a bit later. the hit points issue can be mitigated slightly by a combination of favored class bonus and the toughness feat.
Why is everyone's advice "just buy a wand of CLW" to me? How is a first level party suppose to afford that? (Which, at first level, healing is arguably most important considering how precious few HP we have). Besides which, it's a money sink. In the long run, if we have someone who can do in-between battle healing, it saves a lot more gold for the whole party to spend on magic items that don't use themselves up.
And, it’s bad advice. It’s not very useful in combat, and it sucks a lot of party wealth. True, often, during combat a witch/cleric/etc can do something better than heal. But when you really need to heal during combat, you need to do it well, and a wand of CLW ain’t gonna cut it.
Of course in a game where PC’s are disposable, then a PC dying doesn’t make any difference, just allows a player to bring in the newest bestest build he’s been wanting to play.
I consider that poor gaming and roleplaying. Of course, others disagree.
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Um... how is bringing a wand of CLW, one of the most efficient sources of healing, poor gaming?
Also, if you want to be able to heal in any situation, why not bring a cleric? Sure, a few heals are nice as a witch, but if you wanna play a healer, why not pick a class that can do it REALLY well.
Basically, if you want to have backup heals, why use up your spells when you can get a wand that does the same thing?
Bringing or buying a wand is fine, and it’s expected in PF & 3.5. What is poor gaming is not bothering with in-combat healing as you are playing “a game where PC’s are disposable, then a PC dying doesn’t make any difference, just allows a player to bring in the newest bestest build he’s been wanting to play.”
I don't know what you're freaking out about. It sounds like your friend just wants to make a character he thinks is cool and have fun playing with you. That's the point of the game, right? If your friend's not worried about it, let him be. Rule 0.
how about letting him play the character he wants, the way he wants
I dont like the sound of "we need his character to have the healing hex"
does he make choices for your character? Don't fight with a longsword fight with a flail?
is it a bad idea? Maybe.
But should all witches have the healing hex?
It can only be used on a single person once per day, so it's not that useful, especially if the tank gets hit more than once.
It seems like you are forcing that player into the healer role, and that IS badwrongfun.
Maybe you should tell him to scratch the witch and make a cleric while you are at it?
You said you had a ranger and an inquisitor?
Does the inquisitor not have the same access to heal spells a witch does?
You dont want to buy potions or wands because you want this guy to make different choices so your characters can keep more money?
I hope he chooses bard for 3rd level.
With a full caster class like the witch, which gets hexes on top I can't see too many situations where using the bow would be a good idea. Cast a spell, De-buff someone, use a wand...
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This thread was almost a year old before it came back to life.