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Two particular situations to which I'd want to find 'official' answers or some sort of consensus.
It has been agreed to elsewhere that Undead Lord is a valid cleric archetype, and that the corpse companion is perfectly legal - you may start play with a vanilla skeleton, and may make a companion out of a corpse you 'acquire' during an adventure - such a companion should be recorded down.
Now. What happens when one of your party falls during a quest, and you want to make a corpse companion out of their lifeless body?
Assuming that they agree, I don't think there will be a problem. What if they disagree, though? For example, they want to get raised after the quest? (My guess is that in that case, you shouldn't do it. But what if they don't have the resources/ we know raise dead is impossible to get - after all, they are now just a corpse - can you then make them into an undead minion?).
What about if you cast create undead on them, returning them back to life in an undead form? Yes, I know, all spells cease funtioning after the module ends, but since a pc casted raise dead is as valid as a npc raise dead, and that doesn't "end" either, should the player be allowed to continue playing the said undead character? (Keep in mind that skeletal champions continue to gain experience and level up, and keep all their class levels with them)
I'd figure that a DM would rule that since "all undead are evil" you'd need to retire - but I'm not sure about that.
What do you think? Also, can one use corpse companion to create a skeletal champion out of a friend? Since these things are intelligent, should the creator, or the original player, play and control that character?
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A) If they agree. No problem.
B) If they disagree, it falls under PvP. No go. Regardless of their reasons. It would also be a jerk move.
C) The new undead NPC would not be the same "character", but I wouldn't care if the player represented your newly created NPC. Either way, the "character" is toast at the end of the scenario. He would still be recorded as dead on the reporting.
I could see making a fallen companion into a zombie, since it would be easier than carrying them back to town to be raised. But if you use create undead on a fallen companion, can they even be raised after that? Does that somehow negate the ability to return to normal life? But anyway, I think this would fall into the not allowed category of changes that can happen to a PC. After all, Reincarnate is not legal and getting to be a werewolf if bitten by one is not legal, so why would making someone into an undead be legal? And yes, since all undead on Golarion are evil, it would be impossible to play an undead character anyway and still be legal in PFS. The dhampir is the exception to this, as it is only half undead.
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To answer your question Evevhar, you cannot perform Raise Dead on someobdy who has been turned undead.
You can perform Resurrection on them though.
So if you animate your friend, you have just made it much more expensive to bring their character back to life. In a sense, you have truly given them a "death sentence."
They prefer the term half dead. :P
Or, "living-impaired".
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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EvilMinon, that wouldn't work at my table. Once you pervert the body as a zombie, it's no longer in fit condition for a soul to return via raise dead. Chopping it up further doesn't improve the situation.
Actually, you don't even need to make a call on it:
A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can't be raised by this spell.
Ta-da!
You can't cast Raise Dead on an undead creature, but what stops you from just re-killing the zombie once you get back to town? Its not undead anymore at that point is it?
While one might attempt to rules-lawyer this, I think that the text of Raise Dead pretty specifically disallows this:
A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can't be raised by this spell.
Compare that wording to the wording of Resurrection on the same topic:
You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed.
It's clear to me that both effects (turning a dead creature into an undead creature, and a death effect) do something to the body (or perhaps the soul) which you need the stronger magic of a Resurrection to undo.
Edit: bah! Ninjaed by Jiggy while I was looking up Resurrection. ;-)
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EvilMinon, that wouldn't work at my table. Once you pervert the body as a zombie, it's no longer in fit condition for a soul to return via raise dead. Chopping it up further doesn't improve the situation.Actually, you don't even need to make a call on it:
A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can't be raised by this spell.Ta-da!That wording doesn't necessarily invalidate my point.
Being undead is you current state. Once you kill it, is it still undead? Or is it just a dead body again?
The point of the wording could be intended to prevent you from casting it on an actual shambling around zombie, for instance, not that same zombie, once you're reduced its hp's to 0. Or as an offensive weapon on a vampire or some such.
At least, that seems a valid interpretation of the wording. Whether that's the intent of it, is the debate I brought up =)
Mike Mistele's comment in the post after is a little more poignant... but one could argue that 'Destroyed' is not the same as killing it. (for instance in 3.5 when you used Turn Undead on things sufficiently low on HD... it could be 'Destroyed' (not sure if Turn Undead can do this anymore) The same state is used currently by disrupting weapons when used on undead.
Still, not completely cut and dry from a ruling perspective.
Then again, perhaps they just use destroyed since 'killing' something that's already dead (even if fully functional and animated) is a bit of an oxymoron. =)
Hrmm... of course, if you look at the Undead type, it specifically says it is 'destroyed' when its hp's are reduced to 0... so I suppose that kinda puts the kibosh on my argument... 8(
Bah! I argued away my own point!
Wanders of grumbling...
That was actually mildly entertaining.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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That wording doesn't necessarily invalidate my point.Actually, you don't even need to make a call on it:
A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can't be raised by this spell.Ta-da!
You'd have a point if it said "an undead creature can't be raised". But it doesn't. It says "a creature who has been turned into an undead creature". Past tense. If you kill the undead creature, that doesn't change the past so that it's no longer true that it has been turned into an undead creature.
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You'd have a point if it said "an undead creature can't be raised". But it doesn't. It says "a creature who has been turned into an undead creature". Past tense. If you kill the undead creature, that doesn't change the past so that it's no longer true that it has been turned into an undead creature.That wording doesn't necessarily invalidate my point.Actually, you don't even need to make a call on it:
A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can't be raised by this spell.Ta-da!
Actually, even if you manage to Resurrect tat once-ubdead companion, once it dies again, from that workding, it would still require a Resurrection or better, since it would never be eligible for a Raise Dead again.
My Undead Lord question is when do they qualify to get their initial companion? Since the class feature says half their level, would they have to be second level before they can get even a basic skeleton?
The standard rule according the the Core Book is that if is does not state that you round up or to the nearest, that you always round down. So yes, you would have to be 2nd level unless is says otherwise.
What is all this talk of "Legal"?
As far as I know any spell is valid for using so long as its not breaking the rules and your gm allows it.
Also what is this rule that all spells end at the end of an adventure? I've never read that in the core rule book.
Also for the undead lord can you have a skeletal champion/Juju Zombie as your companion?
I ask this as the wording of the ability and the template for zombie's/skeletons state that you loose all hd due to class levels. This means that you cannot have an effective humanoid corpse companion past level 1. and your companion doesn't level with you. Obviously this was meant to work as per the animal companion rules, at least that is the feel i get from it but necormancy is just so out there when it comes to the rules.
Personally i think that is Bull. Has there been any errata on this subject?
Also, who says you cant play an evil character?
What is all this talk of "Legal"?
This thread started out as PFS-specific questions and then morphed into general rules questions and got moved because of it. So now some of the info here will be confusing.
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Elias,
This question was originally posted for PFS, which is an Organized Play campaign with some specific, non-standard rules.
PFSOP rules:
No Evil PCs
PC cast spells end at the end of the scenario/module
PFS has its own rules for what items from Paizo books are legal for play in PFS, in the PFSOP Guide and Additional Resources. This includes no Crafting feats, along with what feat substitutions happen for when a class includes such a feat as part of its normal build (Wizards, and Scribe Scroll, for instance, that PFS changes into Spell Focus).
On the Skeleton Champion/Juju Zombie, I believe they would fall under the half-your-level rule for variant undead, so legal, but probably weaker.
My quetsion was because my eyes skipped over the non-variant zombie/skeleton part of the write-up. Color me tired at the time.
Ahh makes sense, I think that is why i've never played society.