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And this was the point I was trying to express earlier. Just because lots of people can qualify for a spellcasting class, doesn't mean their life situation will allow them to take the class. Would the wizard's college rather spend time teaching 100 average INT people how to cast mending, or spend the same amount of time (and most likely less effort) to teach a half dozen gifted students (INT 16+) how to cast Ice Storm?
And who will be more successful? The academy that only accepts from a very small pool of very gifted students, for whom they have to compete with every other academy, or the academy that goes mass-production and creates a new magical industrial revolution by empowering the masses?
Cause we know how that worked out in the real world. Specialized craftsmen who spend years learning their craft and do everything by hand still exist (and some of them even make some bucks), but big companies with assembly lines are where the money's at.
The small family farm needs subsidies to survive, while agribusiness rakes it in. More, cheaper, faster is the key to success. Quality? Meh, I'll just buy a new one when this one breaks. Tradition handed down through families? Whatever. Pride in craftsmanship? Mwa-ha-ha! So quaint.
The academy that only trains students who could learn ice storm (and really, what's the mercantile value of *that* spell, anyway?) will end up about as relevant to the cut and thrust of the medieval fantasy society as the Amish are to Ford Motor Company.
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But aren't the exceptional students more likely provide a greater benefit through creating magic items, contribute funds, researching new spells, and bring back rare artifacts through adventuring?Would those be the magic items that provide no benefit to society at large, the funds in the form of gold and treasures stolen from indigenous populations, new spells that focus mostly on killing other people in increasingly gruesome fashion when they're not about enslaving other sapient beings, and the rare artifacts that are, nine times out of ten, dedicated to some dark god and precipitate potential apocalypses?
So what you're saying is that the Wizards' colleges ARE run by colossal jerkwads who don't give a crap about society? ;)
Yep. Most colleges are administered that way. ;)
I guess I'm a bit old school, thinking magic should be in the hands of the few, and not the many. I figure most Wizard's colleges are primarily run for the benefit of the college and it's alumni, if not dedicated to a specific patron.
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The academy that only trains students who could learn ice storm (and really, what's the mercantile value of *that* spell, anyway?) will end up about as relevant to the cut and thrust of the medieval fantasy society as the Amish are to Ford Motor Company.
In the hands of a skilled craftsman at the right moment? One ancient red dragon hoard. :-)
On a serious, and more industrial revolution note - could not Ice Storm be used to create an enormous amount of ice in one shot (either by itself or by freezing a large amount of water)? I believe an example was given earlier about using Ray of Frost to start a large ice concern for long term food storage. Paying one skilled employee versus hundreds barely skilled ones? Easy trade off, as payroll is always your biggest expense. There is also a good chance your highly skilled Ice Storm caster would own such a concern.
A bit off your point, but I'm just thinking somewhere in the vicinity of that mysterious box everyone says you should think outside of...
I'm talking about actually considering the impact magic would have on a world, rather than just assuming that it's there but somehow doesn't touch the old knights, serfs, dirt-holes paradigm that people seem to want to assume.
In centuries past, people did live like this. Magic was so plentiful that even the commoner could feast like a king. Every house had one child who could cause a feast to appear, and another child to magically mend clothes when the old ones no longer fit. Lo, it was a grand time, perhaps the pinnacle of civilization.
But then, Earthfall happened. The Starstone came crashing into the world, and a thousand years of darkness began.
Now, some claim this event coincided with the Great Change called "Third Edition." Others believe that an ancient god named "Fiat" caused the destruction. Still others name it the Spellplague. Whatever the reason, the scholars all agree on the result. The rules of magic changed.
Those peasants who had grown fat suddenly found themselves clothed in rags as the magic was undone. Whole villages dried up as the magical fountains that brought water to the masses ceased to operate. Cites cast into darkness as their lamps went out.
For centuries, people scraped by. They needed to relearn things like cooking, and iron working, and dungsweeping. For decades they viewed those few who still had magical powers with suspicious eyes. Stories were told about how angry mages turned entire households of people into mice, and the wizards of the world shrank into hiding.
While in hiding, they discussed what to do. Certainly, they couldn't allow civilization to advance to such a state as before the Starfall. Another cataclysm would certainly cause people to turn on wizards, and the wizards certainly didn't want that. And so they came up with a plan.
That plan has been lost for thousands of years. We see the effect of that plan today. Golarion has no sorcerous lamplighting guilds. Weavers are forbidden from learning spells of any kind, and those mages who perform such blasphemous magic for nothing more than profit (!) are tarred, feathered, and run out of town. Even other wizards know the rules, and abandon such fiends to whatever fate awaits them in the cold harshness of the wilds.
That's why mundane objects aren't magically created, and why there are no sorcerous dungsweeper guilds.
And this was the point I was trying to express earlier. Just because lots of people can qualify for a spellcasting class, doesn't mean their life situation will allow them to take the class. Would the wizard's college rather spend time teaching 100 average INT people how to cast mending, or spend the same amount of time (and most likely less effort) to teach a half dozen gifted students (INT 16+) how to cast Ice Storm?
And this is the point I've argued against already - I'm not saying that a wizard's guild has to do this. I'm not even saying there should be wizards' guilds at all, since that'd assume things like that a government would want an organization training people to have phenomenal cosmic power (without the itty-bitty living space) right there, potentially unchecked and just asking for someone to decide they're better than the king/lord/whatever.
I'm saying all it takes is one wizard to train a bunch of people, and then they can train people, and pretty soon, the Scrivener's Guild is training its staff to cast amanuensis at will. That's all it takes. It doesn't take someone who can cast Wish to train these tradesmen. It takes someone who knows how to do it and is enterprising enough. And it easily could be just the way it is.
Or, scriveners could charge 5 gp for a book, and you can explain to me why everyone in the Pathfinder multiverse is literate.
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I believe an example was given earlier about using Ray of Frost to start a large ice concern for long term food storage. Paying one skilled employee versus hundreds barely skilled ones?
A cantrip can be cast at will. There's no reason at all to hire 'hundreds barely skilled ones.' Hire one. A 1st level Wizard or Sorcerer with Ray of Frost can cast it hundreds of times a day.
7th level Wizards to cast Ice Storm are rarer, as well, and the spellcasting service charge for a *minimum* level casting of Ice Storm is 280 gp. You'll have to charge a heck of a lot per ice cube to recoup that loss. Stick to the apprentice, who you don't even have to pay at all, as it will be part of his term of service to get an education.
A bit off your point, but I'm just thinking somewhere in the vicinity of that mysterious box everyone says you should think outside of...
Which is what I was doing, by suggesting that things might be different because of all this magic. You are staunchly defending the box I tried to think outside of...
In Golarion, how common is low level magic? What impact would it have on the guilds?
I don't think that it would have a large impact on the guilds. I think that the guilds would incorporate it into themselves. You could say that they already have and that it is so common that no one really notices it.
Would a lamp lighter's guild be threatened by a band of int 10 mages/cha 10 sorcerers with mage hand (to lift the oil up to fill the lamp, then the wick to light it),and prestidigitation (for cleaning the lamp of soot)
Well, there is still the problem of being able to see what you are doing from 20 feet down from the lamp, escpecially at twilight when the sun is setting. Did you pour the oil into the basin or did you spill some? if you did spill some, it could make a nice flash when the match is applied, not to mention the fact that the lamp will go out some time during the night. Not to mention the problem with lighting the lamp if it is windy out (have you ever tried lighting anything when it was windy?)
I recall reading that some lamplighters went around on stilts to light/clean/repair/etc. the lamps. I could see both mundanes and cantrip users doing that, with the cantrip users going around the whole city, rather than just their blocks, doing repairs and more detailed cleaning.
Would a scribners/scrivners guild be threatened by the above example?
Why would they be threatened? They would be the ones with the cantrip users! As well, you would still need their mundane members as the original text will need to be written and illustrated (while I am literate, my hand writing is terrrible and even I cannot make it out at times!!).
Does the king have a food taster or a guy with detect poison?
Most are monks!:)
I am sure that most powerful and/or paranoid nobles have food tasters/detect poison guys (either cantrip users or magical items -like the Purple Dragoon rings). You still have to deal with two part poisons (one part in the food, the other in the really expensive cigar -with neither detecting as poison until they are combined?).Do craft guilds feel threatened by mending? Or by all those bards summoning instruments rather than buying them?
Magical mending only works if all of the pieces are there. Did you get all of the pieces of that dropped plate? When the dire bear mauled you, did you manage to find all of the threads from your favorite cloak? If not, then you will need a crafter to repair or replace the plate and a tailor to invisibly repair your cloak.
Create Water cantrip cities/towns/villages. I do not see them existing, not really. They have a major weakness for growth and survivability. If the cantrip users are killed or are no longer receiving their cantrips from their god(s), then the city/town/village dies. Invaders/enemies will certainly know and exploit such a weakness. I can see temporary camps and caravans making extensive use of the cantrip.
Again, I see the unlimited cantrips as supporting the existing crafts and guilds, not competing with them.
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As an aside to the current topic, one of my favorite bizarre third-party notions was from Safe Harbor Guild (from EN Publishing). It presented a three level PrC called the Adept of the Hovering Disk that focused entirely on boosting the carrying power and utility of Tenser's Floating Disk, and worked for a guild in a prominent harbor town.
Funky little details like that, a guild with dedicated low-level Wizards and Sorcerers who specialize in loading and off-loading cargo from ships, are cool.
I doubt I'd go so far as to introduce a 'stevedore' Prestige Class, but it might make for an interesting Feat, Trait or even magical variation on a 'skill trick.'
Create Water cantrip cities/towns/villages. I do not see them existing, not really. They have a major weakness for growth and survivability. If the cantrip users are killed
And that's a great potential plot seed. Attacking the water supply (by tainting wells) has long been a staple of desert warfare. Attacking the Adepts who produce the water, or stealing the Decanter of Endless Water that maintains the oasis, works just as well.
Again, I see the unlimited cantrips as supporting the existing crafts and guilds, not competing with them.
The easiest solution that doesn't involve monkeying with the spells is to have powerful guilds lobby for legislation that prevents the un-guilded from competing with them. If the Waterbearer's Guild has exclusive rights to provide water commercially for the city, your Adept, Cleric or Druid can provide for himself and his immediate companions without incident, but the second he tries to go 'for profit,' he's running the risk of being thrown in the stocks and receiving a fine for violating the law! If he wants to create water commercially, he has to register with the guild.
It won't work for *every* community, and it's a made-up-on-the-spot cover-your-ass decision by the DM, not a rule designed to save him from that inconvenience, but it's certainly an option. Ideally, everything the DM needs to provide a balanced setting should already be there in the book, and he shouldn't have to scramble to pull a rationale for why it doesn't work out of his butt when one of his players say, 'Hey... I can make money!' but nothing is perfect, and if the book tried to account for every bit of player creativity it would be about ten times as heavy as it already is!
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It presented a three level PrC called the Adept of the Hovering Disk that focused entirely on boosting the carrying power and utility of Tenser's Floating Disk, and worked for a guild in a prominent harbor town.
That's badass and I'm going to look for this product based on this prestige class.
EDIT: and at a *dollar* over at DriveThruRPG, purchased.
And that's a great potential plot seed. Attacking the water supply (by tainting wells) has long been a staple of desert warfare. Attacking the Adepts who produce the water, or stealing the Decanter of Endless Water that maintains the oasis, works just as well.
Would you live in a town that could have no water from one day to the next, if the adepts/priest that were supplying the water every day are no longer doing so, leaving you with no water? I doublt that I would.
Now a Decanter of Endless Water that was buried and creating the "Oasis" or such that allowed the town to live, is something else. The Decanter works day in day out, without any needed maintenance and can be buried, cemented in place, etc.. in place. Yes, finding/stealing/finding a replacement are all good plot hooks.
The easiest solution that doesn't involve monkeying with the spells is to have powerful guilds lobby for legislation that prevents the un-guilded from competing with them.
I don't think I would agree with that. I still think that it would be easier just to say that the cantrip users have always been part of the system, including guilds where they exist (or are legal).
Does it really matter if the lamplighter is using a cantrip to clean the lamp or if they are using a rag?
I can see apprentices making a bit of spending money or generating good will by casting cantrips for locals (like mending). I can see the Tinkerer's Guild trying to discourage that or recruit the "failed" apprentices. Etc..
Often it is the little things taht make the scene (like a pseudo dragon swooping in and stealing an apple from an adventurer in Korvosa ---or a part of the city is dark this night because there is a lamplighter war going on between two guilds/wanna be guilds --or is that what the BBEG wants everyone to think....)
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Would you live in a town that could have no water from one day to the next, if the adepts/priest that were supplying the water every day are no longer doing so, leaving you with no water? I doubt that I would.
Well, no, I don't live in Arizona, Nevada or Southern California, all heavily dependent on a single increasingly unreliable supplier of water. And that's just in this country.
But, like most members of advanced societies, I'm utterly dependent on others for electricity, food, water, etc. I *can* hunt for food, but I'd probably not find any, since, if our food distribution network collapsed and I had to hunt for food, the other 86,000 people living within a four hour's walk of me would have already eaten everything that could be caught, killed or scraped off of the undersides of rocks and be firing up the backyard barbecues for long pig...
That's our world. Dependency on others over whom you have no control is the sacrifice we've made to live like this.
A couple of quick thoughts since I can't get invested in this stuff right now.
Backing the discussion up a bit:
And this was the point I was trying to express earlier. Just because lots of people can qualify for a spellcasting class, doesn't mean their life situation will allow them to take the class. Would the wizard's college rather spend time teaching 100 average INT people how to cast mending, or spend the same amount of time (and most likely less effort) to teach a half dozen gifted students (INT 16+) how to cast Ice Storm?
And who will be more successful? The academy that only accepts from a very small pool of very gifted students, for whom they have to compete with every other academy, or the academy that goes mass-production and creates a new magical industrial revolution by empowering the masses?
Cause we know how that worked out in the real world. Specialized craftsmen who spend years learning their craft and do everything by hand still exist (and some of them even make some bucks), but big companies with assembly lines are where the money's at.
The small family farm needs subsidies to survive, while agribusiness rakes it in. More, cheaper, faster is the key to success. Quality? Meh, I'll just buy a new one when this one breaks. Tradition handed down through families? Whatever. Pride in craftsmanship? Mwa-ha-ha! So quaint.
The academy that only trains students who could learn ice storm (and really, what's the mercantile value of *that* spell, anyway?) will end up about as relevant to the cut and thrust of the medieval fantasy society as the Amish are to Ford Motor Company.
I prefer to avoid the whole mass-produced magic phenomenon with an idea from AD&D. The PCs (and various NPCs) are special. 99% of the population can't do what they do. Could never do it.
I explain it to myself as a mutation that let's the PCs access arcane or divine power, or ki or some other fantastic talent. (Let's face it, all the classes, even the "boring" old fighter, are doing some serious superhuman type stuff by medium levels.)
It helps keep the D&D world sane for me. Otherwise things would be nuts. Who would be a laborer at a couple silvers a day if an 11 intelligence and some training could let them cast 1st level spells and charge in gold? We head straight to Set's model. There's got to be another mechanism that restricts demand for magical training -- that is, there aren't many who can actually perform.
Edit: Ninjaed by Dennis.
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I prefer to avoid the whole mass-produced magic phenomenon with an idea from AD&D. The PCs (and various NPCs) are special. 99% of the population can't do what they do. Could never do it.
Upthread I offer the option that the vast majority of those 'wizards academy graduates' and 'temple priests' are in fact arcane or divine branches of the Adept class, with the PCs (and select NPC encounters) being some of the very few actual Clerics, Druids, Sorcerers and Wizards in the world.
The fluff of the game setting, with it's grand temples full of priests and 'mages academies' full of arcanists would remain intact, while the Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer and Wizard remain special and rare.
Like most constructive posts agreeing with 'the other side,' it got ignored. We thrive on drama and 'us-against-them' adversarialism. I blame the media. :)
I prefer to avoid the whole mass-produced magic phenomenon with an idea from AD&D. The PCs (and various NPCs) are special. 99% of the population can't do what they do. Could never do it.Upthread I offer the option that the vast majority of those 'wizards academy graduates' and 'temple priests' are in fact arcane or divine branches of the Adept class, with the PCs (and select NPC encounters) being some of the very few actual Clerics, Druids, Sorcerers and Wizards in the world.
The fluff of the game setting, with it's grand temples full of priests and 'mages academies' full of arcanists would remain intact, while the Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer and Wizard remain special and rare.
Like most constructive posts agreeing with 'the other side,' it got ignored. We thrive on drama and 'us-against-them' adversarialism. I blame the media. :)
Well the Paizo fluff generally avoids details of how many wizards are in the wizard's guild or how many clerics are in the temple. IMO it's for exactly this reason.
Some folks are comfortable with a temple having hundreds of clerics in a temple and sending out dozens of clerical missionaries. Others are more comfortable with the divine spark being limited to a small number of clerics. Golarian (mostly) supports both ideas.
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Some folks are comfortable with a temple having hundreds of clerics in a temple
I have no idea where that idea came from. Was it something I said?
This isn't Forgotten Realms Adventures, where it seemed like every temple listed in a major city had a 12th to 17th level Cleric in charge, and I apologize sincerely if I implied that any individual temple would have *hundreds of Clerics.* I'm not sure if any of the larger Realms temples had hundreds of *lay workers,* let alone more than a half-dozen or so priests with Cleric levels...
Still, the sheer size of the Korvosan Academy (with branches for each school of magic and multiple teachers) suggest that there are at least eight specialist wizard students at any given time (one for each school), if not quite a few more, since the students are said to compete with each other within their respective specialty schools.
Turning the student body (and faculty) into almost exclusively arcane Adepts (using either Temple Quarter from The Game Mechanics, the Eberron Campaign Setting's Magewright NPC or some other variation) helps to keep the Academy as grand and busy as described (with the 'specialists' perhaps using a Feat or 'Alternate Class Feature' to replace their Summon Familiar ability with limited Wizard School specialization features) while minimizing the presence of Wizards (and other PC class casters).
You are reading more into my post than I intended to say.
I was just saying... Paizo left a lot of details fuzzy so the GM could tailor the world to their designs. While the campaign world is quite well defined in some ways details like exactly how many clerics or wizards are in a temple or guild are omitted.
Would you live in a town that could have no water from one day to the next, if the adepts/priest that were supplying the water every day are no longer doing so, leaving you with no water? I doubt that I would.Well, no, I don't live in Arizona, Nevada or Southern California, all heavily dependent on a single increasingly unreliable supplier of water. And that's just in this country.
But, like most members of advanced societies, I'm utterly dependent on others for electricity, food, water, etc. I *can* hunt for food, but I'd probably not find any, since, if our food distribution network collapsed and I had to hunt for food, the other 86,000 people living within a four hour's walk of me would have already eaten everything that could be caught, killed or scraped off of the undersides of rocks and be firing up the backyard barbecues for long pig...
That's our world. Dependency on others over whom you have no control is the sacrifice we've made to live like this.
In today's society we have the capability to transporting large quantities of goods and people if there were to be some kind of emergency that eliminated the water supply. We have the capability of delivering large quantities of water to these areas. We also have a fair quantity of beverages in bottles.
A Create Water town would not have those options. People who left the town due to a water shortage probably would not be able to make it to a water supply before most if not all of them died.
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((cut for space))
Or, scriveners could charge 5 gp for a book, and you can explain to me why everyone in the Pathfinder multiverse is literate.
Very good points.
As far as the literacy bit - that raises a good question. Is everyone in the Golarian multiverse literate? We all know the PC's are literate - more a matter of convenience than anything else. Is there somewhere in the setting book that makes this designation? (I very well may have missed it.)
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7th level Wizards to cast Ice Storm are rarer, as well, and the spellcasting service charge for a *minimum* level casting of Ice Storm is 280 gp. You'll have to charge a heck of a lot per ice cube to recoup that loss. Stick to the apprentice, who you don't even have to pay at all, as it will be part of his term of service to get an education.
Hmm, interesting thought. Although there is a better chance that said 7th level wizard has covered all your ice needs for the day in 6 seconds, as opposed the hours of work it may take your apprentices. (I'm guesstimating here. Please no math working out the volume of ice created for both methods.)
On another thought, isn't the 280gp cost to cast the spell in combat setting? I don't recall ice storm having expensive components, so perhaps a deal can be worked with said wizard. Of course, as you pointed out, a deal could be worked with said apprentices also...
A bit off your point, but I'm just thinking somewhere in the vicinity of that mysterious box everyone says you should think outside of...Which is what I was doing, by suggesting that things might be different because of all this magic. You are staunchly defending the box I tried to think outside of...
Didn't mean to give the impression I was staunchly defending anything. I was just having fun with this train of thought. This is a fun mental exercise, isn't it? Kind of like how ancient Greek philosophers gathered and pontificated a variety of "what if" topics.
It harkens back the words of Socrates, "Like sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives."
10 points if remember where that quote came from.
It harkens back the words of Socrates, "Like sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives."
10 points if remember where that quote came from.
The soap "Days of our lives"?
:)
It harkens back the words of Socrates, "Like sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives."
10 points if remember where that quote came from.
It's like dust in the wind.
Dust *blows dust* in the wind...
Hmm, interesting thought. Although there is a better chance that said 7th level wizard has covered all your ice needs for the day in 6 seconds, as opposed the hours of work it may take your apprentices.
The chances you will find a 7th level wizard who will spend his days going around filling freezers with ice is pretty slim.
On another thought, isn't the 280gp cost to cast the spell in combat setting? I don't recall ice storm having expensive components, so perhaps a deal can be worked with said wizard. Of course, as you pointed out, a deal could be worked with said apprentices also...
There is no set rate for casting spells in a combat setting. The only per spell pricing listed is for peaceful settings.
After reading through most of this thread, I can honestly say that the most likely outcome is that magic would exist side by side with the nonmagical.
I can easily see a wizard that caters to nobility. He can mend clothing, produce useful minor magical items, and cast the occasional spell for them...all for a price. He would rub elbows with nobility and gain status befitting his profession.
Compare this to the seamstress that sews and repairs clothing for most commoners. They do not have the money to make use of the wizard, but they can afford her.
Guild comflicts would likely be solved by the guilds through local laws or working agreements. Maybe apprentice wizards have to spend six months working with the lamplighters guild (increasing efficiency and offering protection in some areas). In return, the guild provides all of the lamps and oils used in the guild hall.
In wealthier areas, magic will likely be more available and it will take the role of technological development. In other areas, technology may match them, either because of the lack of wizards or priest in the area or a distrust of the power they have in society. The printing press would be a good example here. It would be rightly feared by a monarchy that had the support of the local priest and wizards.
To some extent you could compare it to the current clash between the established news media and internet blogs.
Finally, the main reason I think both would exist side by side is because we humans are stupid. Just because one choice seems the most efficient or logical, doesn't mean we are going to do it. Could a town be build around a limited natural resource? Yes. The US is full of "ghost towns" and impoverished areas that relied on a limited resource, that once gone, caused the community to collapse. Likewise, their are many businesses that offer better services/products at a higher cost. Yet we still have businesses that offer a similar product at lower quality for a lower cost, and people pay the lower cost.
This thread seems like the 0-level NPC version of "Rogues are pointless coz wizards can cast invisibility."
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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This thread seems like the 0-level NPC version of "Rogues are pointless coz wizards can cast invisibility."
Well that was an insightful entry...
I agree that the 'logical' answer is the wizards/clerics/sorcerers etc. are 'rare and unique' and in fact have said that's the truth in my world
Kaeyos' comments that 'mending != really fixed' is one explination, though I think Thraxus sums up the idea that I like the most. I kind of like the intraguild training system. "Ok, Wally Wizard, you've learned mending. Now I want you to practice. Go to Tommy's Taxidermy guild and mend those animal hides for him today. Pay special concern to the owlbear. I killed it the other weekend and want it for the lecture hall. Yes it will be part of your final grade."
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Kaeyos' comments that 'mending != really fixed' is one explination, though I think Thraxus sums up the idea that I like the most. I kind of like the intraguild training system. "Ok, Wally Wizard, you've learned mending. Now I want you to practice. Go to Tommy's Taxidermy guild and mend those animal hides for him today. Pay special concern to the owlbear. I killed it the other weekend and want it for the lecture hall. Yes it will be part of your final grade."
Yeah, that is the cleanest solution, assume that the magic does have an impact, and it's already factored into the setting. Magic didn't appear yesterday in the game-setting, and the rock-bottom prices one can get some gear and services already account for the availability of low-level magic on the market.
Wall of Iron for infinite cheap iron? "Yeah, we already do that. Why the heck to you think that longsword only costs one tenth your starting gold, when most peasants wouldn't have been able to afford one in a world without magic?"
(Okay, bad example. Pathfinder Walls of Iron can't be used that way, but it's the first one that came to mind!)
Better example would be the use of something like Amanuensis (sp?) to justify how everyone in Golarion is literate, and big cities have daily playbills and pamphlets being distributed, even by underground networks of rabble-rousers who wouldn't be able to access a printing press (if such even exist...).
Thanks guys. I was drawing a bit from real life experiences with how things work around my job. Just because it is is more effective to do something one way doesn't mean it gets done that way. Most of the time it is a compromise of new techniques (quicker and/or easier) and old way (tried and true).
I should point out that I think technology would still advance with magic being common. It would be slow, but for those that cannot use magic, it would be a way of trying to even the playing field. In the case of Golarion, we also have influence from ancient civilizations and other planets, so this arguement about hoe magic affects society can get even more convuluted.
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The academy that only trains students who could learn ice storm (and really, what's the mercantile value of *that* spell, anyway?) will end up about as relevant to the cut and thrust of the medieval fantasy society as the Amish are to Ford Motor Company.
You've definitely made some great analogies, but there's one real world analogue you've missed: the military-industrial complex. If no one at the pro-society wizard academy is actually being trained in high-level magic, how do all those magically-trained craftsmen defend themselves from Nation X who doesn't care about the people and is laying siege to the city with a handful of Int 16 wizards casting ice storm?
EDIT: And assuming you meant that such wizards are still being taught, but in smaller numbers to make room for the commoners, the miltary-industrial complex-type mentality could easily account for what displaces those commoners(they have two wizards who can cast fireball, so we must have THREE wizards who can cast EMPOWERED fireball, and so on, until the sole concern is producing the most talented wizards at the cost of a better society).
(of course, none of these analogies ever hold up...we all know that no wizard would ever spend his precious time teaching mentally-deficient commoners spells that would improve their entire society...that's just crazy talk)
FURTHER EDIT: In no way am I disparaging a national magical defense priority. I merely wanted to illustrate that it could(and in the real world sometimes is) taken to an extreme.
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(of course, none of these analogies ever hold up...we all know that no wizard would ever spend his precious time teaching mentally-deficient commoners spells that would improve their entire society...that's just crazy talk)Yeah, smart people never teach high school. :)
(warning: sarcasm)
LOL Yes, I teach high school English when I'm employed. With or without sarcasm, it's difficult to argue with the sentiment.