I think, after alot of theory-craft I've come up with a pretty viable and effective build for TWF.
My thinking went like this:
What we need are static bonuses that we can apply to both blades. Paladin's smite was the first one that came to mind. When you apply a static +5 to a Two handed weapon, it's only ever +5. But when you apply it to both blades you double it!
Secondly, you take a -2/-2 to hit with the weapons. For a full BAB class this is ok, but for a 3/4 BAB class it's too much of a loss to keep up.
Then it struck me, the Bard class gets not one, but two static bonuses. Inspire Courage and Arcane Strike. Not only this, but the Dawnflower Dervish gains double inspire bonus. Not only this but IC also counts as a to hit. So right from the off you are negating these penalties, and by 6th you're equal to full BAB.
+1 becomes +2, +2 becomes +4 etc. And with Two weapons it's doubled AGAIN.
The problem then becomes the fact that the bard reuires a hand free for somatic components. Not a problem. The answer? The Doublesword.
Below is my proposal for the deadliest TWF build. It's at level 7 as I believe this is the 'sweet spot'.
Human Fighter 1/Bard 6 (DD)
Traits: Magical Knack, Reactionary
STR: 18 (+2 Racial, +1 @ 4th)
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 8
Wis: 8
Cha: 14
Fighter 1: Exotic Wep - Doublesword, Extra Performance, TWF
Bard 2:
Bard 3: Double Slice (This adds more damage than AS at this point)
Bard 4:
Bard 5: Arcane Strike
Bard 6:
Bard 7: Weapon Focus DoubleSword
So @ Level 7 We have a +1/+1 Double Sword and a belt of strength (20 str)
Our To hit/damage while dancing is:
+14/+14 for [1d8+12][1d8+12]
With Allegro [Haste] we get one more attack at exactly the same.
And this only scales better as we level up in Bard.
It's my opinion that the Doublesword bard is one of the most efficient uses of the TWF feat.
The kukri is better than the doublesword for TWF IIRC, and if you are going to spend a feat for weapon proficiency the falcata is the way to go most likely.
TWF does not do bad damage, so it is not a case of it not being viable. It just normally does less damage than a two handed weapon, while using more resources.
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You know the Double Sword is a two handed weapon, correct? So you still don't have a free hand?
My first PFS PC was a Double sword Fighter/Barbarian.
STR: 16 (+2 Racial) (20 in Rage) Belt makes (18+4/22+6)
Dex: 17
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 12 (+1 @ 4th)
Cha: 7
So for 7th Human level:
1 Barbarian 1 (EWP - Double Sword, Two Weapon Fighting)
2 Fighter 1 (Weapon Focus Double Sword)
3 Fighter 2 (Double Slice, Dodge, Bravery+1)
4 Fighter 3 (Wis+1, Armor Training 1)
5 Fighter 4 (Weapon Specialization, Step Up)
6 Fighter 5 (Weapon Training 1 [double weapons])
7 Fighter 6 (Power Attack, ITWF, Bravery+2)
With the same +1/+1 double sword and a belt of strength+2, raging and power attacking, I get:
+12/+12/+7/+7 for [1d8+14][1d8+12][1d8+14][1d8+12]
Attacking AC 25, you hit on an 11 (50% chance), and do 16.5 damage on average. 50% of 16.5 is 8.25 average damage with each attack. 8.25+8.25=16.5 damage with a full round attack.
Attacking AC 25, I hit on 13's (40%) and 18's (15%), and do 18.5/16.5 damage on average. With a full attack:
40% of 18.5 is 7.4,
40% of 16.5 is 6.6
15% of 18.5 is 2.775
15% of 16.5 is 2.475
for 19.25 damage
I have the chance for twice as many crits and can still receive party buffs like haste, bless, boosted inspire, etc. And in two levels I can get improved crit for a 17-20 crit range for twice as many crits again, and power attack boosts to -3/+6 at 8th. You have 47 HP and I have 62, 76 raging. Wearing a chainshirt (no shields!) you'll be AC 17, with a breastplate, I'll be AC 18, raging, and have a faster Movement.
At later levels it gets really sick as weapon training adds up, things like Gloves of Dueling (+2 to weapon training bonuses) Eventually you're tumbling in full plate.
For damage dealing, full BAB is always better, in my opinion. Haste, Inspire Courage are party buffs, and those make me better alongside you.
TWF is already viable. It’s not just the “best choice”. But not only is that realistic, but it has to be that way in a game, it’s very hard to make every choice exactly equal to every other choice.
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You know the Double Sword is a two handed weapon, correct? So you still don't have a free hand?
Correction: You don't have a free hand *while attacking*. Any time he is not attacking he can hold the weapon in one hand and cast with the other (it's a free action to switch). If someone were to trigger an action during this time that provokes he could not take the AoO (as the weapon cannot be used when held that way), but he is not otherwise penalized. So this matters mostly with 1-round casts, but can also matter if the opponent uses prepared or immediate actions.
TWF is Better than 2 handed on Full Attacks. (Depending on Class)
It's only on Move+ Standard attack it falls down. You get around that by either
Using a double weapon and 2 handing it, (I wouldn't blow a feat on it, either Half-Elf w/ancestral.arms or Be a Dwarf and use anUrgosh or Half orc and wield a double axe)
Using a Weapon/ Cestus and Two handing when you move,
Pick an archetype that lets you TWF when you move (TWW, Dawnflower Dervish, Mobile Fighter)
The point.is correct. You need Big Static Bonuses to damage:
Smite (+20)
Challenge (+20)
Favored Enemy stacked+Instant Enemy Spell (+8 to +10)
Weapon Training+Gtr Wpn Spl+Duelist Gloves (+10)
SA 30d6
I have written 2 handbooks on this. See Guide to the Guides.
Honestly the DPR is there. It's more damage, but more rescources.
If I were to Change TWF.it would only be to roll two weapon defence into the chain.
Eg TWF, you get the offhand attack and +1 shield bonus (cause of parrying skill)
ITWF, get the second offhand attack and +2 shield bonus
GTWF get the 3rd offhand and +3 shield bonus.
TWF is totally viable in the sense that it's in the normal band of how powerful characters are, doesn't require shenanigans to make it even function (like say, fighting primarily by throwing weapons). It's true that it requires more investment for less damage than fighting with a two-handed weapon except on characters with very damage bonuses applied to each hit who can reliably full attack, but it's totally viable in the sense that a TWF character can contribute normally to a party and adequately fulfill their role. In a party made up of characters that are at the upper edge of normal or which are out-of-band, a TWF might feel a little anemic (especially if those other characters are trying to fill similar roles), but a basic TWF character is generally an effective party member.
The intent for the magus is to keep the casting hand free. The magus shall not use TWF with two weapons or a two handed weapons. At least that is developer intent. The spell being used is techically the off-hand weapon. This was stated during the playtest. I do wish they had written in the book that it was not intended so that even if a some loophole was found the intent would be there.
Doublesword allows you to cast spells with it as taking a hand off is a free action. Kukri's do not give you this ability.
TWF does not do bad damage, so it is not a case of it not being viable. It just normally does less damage than a two handed weapon, while using more resources.
I'm saying this does more damage than a Two handed alternative.
Up to what level, and what are you comparing it to? \
Over how many rounds also. Arcane Strike is a swift action, and I am sure Allegro takes time to activate. Most people say their fights(non boss fights) last about 3 rounds so does it do more damage in longer fights, or can it do the most damage in any fight.
The inquisitor as en example does better damage as the fight goes on because it gets to stack more bonuses.
I wonder why nobody has mentioned TWF rogues/Ninja/Assassins?
Sure they don't have full BAB, but they can get close with only a single buff from an ally.
Also 6 Sneak attacks a round is 60d6 damage which obviously isn't the case all the time but even doing half that (An extra 30d6) would be enough to out damage most people in the party on a normal attack.
Up to what level, and what are you comparing it to? \
Over how many rounds also. Arcane Strike is a swift action, and I am sure Allegro takes time to activate. Most people say their fights(non boss fights) last about 3 rounds so does it do more damage in longer fights, or can it do the most damage in any fight.The inquisitor as en example does better damage as the fight goes on because it gets to stack more bonuses.
How does the inquisitor get more bonuses?
At level 11 for instance this character is stacking +9 on each hit just form Inspire Courage and Arcane Strike?
My knowledge of Inquisitors is limited, but I thought they only gained a +1 every 3 levels to damage?
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if you are really interested in seeing what 2 weapon fighting can do and you plan on playing for more than 7 levels i would suggest trying the two weapon warrior. you eventually ignore all penalties for two weapon fighting and gain bonuses for using 2 weapons. you also get the ability to do 2 attacks per ao and 2 attacks as a standard action. with those you can also proc your 2 weapon rend more often. this also opens up the opportunity to crit multiple times a round. now consider dual wielding scimitars (my favorite weapon) with improved critical strike after level 11 you can start stacking some truly devastating critical strike feats. and even before critical mastery you can still apply one critical feat per critical strike to an opponent. since you can easily hit with 4 strikes and possible land the other 2 (assuming you take greater two weapon fighting) there stands a good chance you will be able to land and confirm multiple crits a round. now past just doing damage you are also causing opponenets to contract harmful conditions and with the 2 weapon rend chain you can make everyone bleed as well.
Up to what level, and what are you comparing it to? \
Over how many rounds also. Arcane Strike is a swift action, and I am sure Allegro takes time to activate. Most people say their fights(non boss fights) last about 3 rounds so does it do more damage in longer fights, or can it do the most damage in any fight.The inquisitor as en example does better damage as the fight goes on because it gets to stack more bonuses.
How does the inquisitor get more bonuses?
At level 11 for instance this character is stacking +9 on each hit just form Inspire Courage and Arcane Strike?
My knowledge of Inquisitors is limited, but I thought they only gained a +1 every 3 levels to damage?
They get bane as a class ability. They get spells, and judgements. Every round their damage goes up if they activate one of the 3.
By more bonus I was not saying more than the bard. I was saying more as in "additional".
Inquisitors can push out over 100 points of damage at level 10 by round 3 or 4.
Up to what level, and what are you comparing it to? \
Over how many rounds also. Arcane Strike is a swift action, and I am sure Allegro takes time to activate. Most people say their fights(non boss fights) last about 3 rounds so does it do more damage in longer fights, or can it do the most damage in any fight.The inquisitor as en example does better damage as the fight goes on because it gets to stack more bonuses.
How does the inquisitor get more bonuses?
At level 11 for instance this character is stacking +9 on each hit just form Inspire Courage and Arcane Strike?
My knowledge of Inquisitors is limited, but I thought they only gained a +1 every 3 levels to damage?
They get bane as a class ability. They get spells, and judgements. Every round their damage goes up if they activate one of the 3.
By more bonus I was not saying more than the bard. I was saying more as in "additional".
Inquisitors can push out over 100 points of damage at level 10 by round 3 or 4.
Exactly. Divine Power at level 10. Wrath, Judgements, and Bane. You're looking at 5 attacks and assume they have +3 weapons and 18 str(which is logical) and assuming you have two weapon fighting and improved two weapon fighting:
(Standard) +7, +7, +2, -3
With Buffs: +21, +21, +17, +11
(+2 Justice Judgement, (+3 Wrath), (+3 divine power), (+4 STR), (+3 weapon Enchant)
And damage is insanity with bane (and destruction judgement)...
1d6 (weapon) +4 (Str) +3 (destruction judgement) +3 (wrath), +3 (Divine Power) +4d6 (bane)
So a if all attacks hit... You are looking at: (simplified version)
20D6+64 Damage. And with + to hits like that, you are going to get this damage or close too every full attack you get. And this ISN'T taking into account critical hits... (this example assumes rapier or scimitar)
EDIT: I relized I didn't even add BANE increase to hit or damage! So add 2 to hits and damage.
Up to what level, and what are you comparing it to? \
Over how many rounds also. Arcane Strike is a swift action, and I am sure Allegro takes time to activate. Most people say their fights(non boss fights) last about 3 rounds so does it do more damage in longer fights, or can it do the most damage in any fight.The inquisitor as en example does better damage as the fight goes on because it gets to stack more bonuses.
How does the inquisitor get more bonuses?
At level 11 for instance this character is stacking +9 on each hit just form Inspire Courage and Arcane Strike?
My knowledge of Inquisitors is limited, but I thought they only gained a +1 every 3 levels to damage?
They get bane as a class ability. They get spells, and judgements. Every round their damage goes up if they activate one of the 3.
By more bonus I was not saying more than the bard. I was saying more as in "additional".
Inquisitors can push out over 100 points of damage at level 10 by round 3 or 4.
What allows the Inquisitors damage to go up?
Those buffs I mentioned in the post you just quoted.
Those buffs I mentioned in the post you just quoted.
I see what you are saying, activate Judgement cast a spell next round activate bane and cast a spell, enter combat get into flanking and make use of your Outflank and Precise strike solo tactics.
Was thinking you meant just judgements and found a feat that increase it per round. I know in the playtest it was a rising bonus like that.
There is a feat that makes judgements better. I can't remember the name though. I think it is in Ultimate magic. It basically give early access to the bonuses IIRC.
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if you are really interested in seeing what 2 weapon fighting can do and you plan on playing for more than 7 levels i would suggest trying the two weapon warrior. you eventually ignore all penalties for two weapon fighting and gain bonuses for using 2 weapons. you also get the ability to do 2 attacks per ao and 2 attacks as a standard action. with those you can also proc your 2 weapon rend more often. this also opens up the opportunity to crit multiple times a round. now consider dual wielding scimitars (my favorite weapon) with improved critical strike after level 11 you can start stacking some truly devastating critical strike feats. and even before critical mastery you can still apply one critical feat per critical strike to an opponent. since you can easily hit with 4 strikes and possible land the other 2 (assuming you take greater two weapon fighting) there stands a good chance you will be able to land and confirm multiple crits a round. now past just doing damage you are also causing opponenets to contract harmful conditions and with the 2 weapon rend chain you can make everyone bleed as well.
TWW has some good things, but loses a great deal of utility. If you have to go to a backup weapon (Composite longbow Bow, against flyers?) you're because you've lost Weapon Training. Duelling Gloves are out for you. You also lose movement in anything but light armor because without armor training, you don't get your movement back in medium or heavy armor (And sash of the war champion is also out). So for me I think its too focused. I like some of the other things fighters are good at.
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The nastiest TWF I've ever seen is a samurai with a splash of barbarian[urban] and fighter[unarmed]. All DEX, dumped STR.
Equipment around 10th: Agile/Furious Amulet of Mighty Fists, +1/Agile/Furious wakizashi, +1/Keen cestus, Celestial Armor, Belt of Incredible Dexterity.
Feats: Mounted Combat (1), Weapon Finesse (1), TWF (3), Dragon Style (fighter dip), Extra Rage (5), I-TWF (7), Improved Critical:wakizashi (Samurai6), Critical Focus(9).
Melee full-attack: several wakizashi strikes, while off-hand makes cestus punches (Dragon Style + Agile Amulet = 1.5x pain on the first).
At 11th & Greater TWF, you're ladling on +9hp damage to each hit from Challenge (or 63 damage alone from Challenge while Hasted if you connect every hit).
-- You're basically a BBEM destroyer; since your weapons are light, you can keep shredding in grapples or even when swallowed whole.
Depends on what you consider viable and how far you want to go.
I've seen a dwarven fighter suck up the -4s and use two war axes. I've been playing with him since 8th level and we're all 19 now and he's gotten the job done when need be. Seemed like his weakness was his armor class. The rest of us used shields and he relied on his hit points which ended up hurting in the long run. It may be that we we're all so hard to hit that the GM just knew to swing at him first. Not having a cleric didn't help much either.
He's a damage machine though and the weapon training and fighter feats supplemented him nicely. He wasn't optimized or anything but it seemed to work. When he managed to get a full attack he tore things to shreds.
One of the big weaknesses I see with twf, or anyone with more than two attacks, is that enemies can just swing and move away. Now they have one attack and one attack of opportunity. This of course only applies in one on one fights but in smaller parties that happens sometimes. Seems like a guy with a greatsword and mobility could become a problem pretty quick.
One of the big weaknesses I see with twf, or anyone with more than two attacks, is that enemies can just swing and move away. Now they have one attack and one attack of opportunity. This of course only applies in one on one fights but in smaller parties that happens sometimes. Seems like a guy with a greatsword and mobility could become a problem pretty quick.
That depends on your build. By level 9-11 there are heaps of classes that can make a move+ fullattack.
Magus- Force Hook PunchDawnflower Dervish, Mobile Fighter- Rapid Strike
Two Weapon Warrior- Doublestrike
Cavalier- Tatician, Co-ordinated Charge
Barbarian- Gtr Beast Totem
Etc.
The Twf does slightly more damage when it gets its full attack and there is no dr. However I would personally never build a twf character because of the costs of weapons and the amount of feats you need to invest. A character's dpr is basically going to be the same if you're going twf or 2h. However with a 2h build you can increase your survivability more than the the twf build. On top of that you have more money to boot.
A character's dpr is basically going to be the same if you're going twf or 2h.Agile changes that equation.
link me a statistical comparasion between twf dex route vs 2h route. Note that I would take the orc bloodline on the 2h build.
Agile still comes in behind THF, and a strength focused TWF build because double slice does not all you to add dex damage to the off-hand weapon, and the agile enhancement is not worded in such a way that it replaces strength where feats are concerned.
You could run a game that favors low hp enemies that use tactics. A twf is at his best when flanked by goblins or something, where the two hander can't cleave and wastes a lot of damage driving things to -17.
Is the twohander really all that worried at that point?
TWF should out DPR THF.
With double slice you apply your STR bonus twice instead of 1.5x. (THF Fighter Archetype negates this)
You apply your static bonuses twice instead of once.
You receive an extra attack.
TWF has the attack penalties, and that hurts TWF a lot. Without doing the math I would have thought TWF would come out on top, but the numbers always favor THF.
That is not likely to happen though. The fighter has buddies so 14 guys going straight for him is a corner case. Even if a GM uses that many opponents their attack bonus will be so low versus the fighter's AC that even without a shield the fighter will most likely.
Depends on what you consider viable and how far you want to go.
+1
At higher levels, a fully optimized two-handed weapon combatant will do a bit more DPR than a fully optimized two-weapon combatant, but the two-weapon character will probably be only a few DPR points behind. Where the two-weapon character will usually have the advantage is in critical status effects (Bleeding Critical, Blinding Critical, etc.), just by having more attacks (potential critical hits).
Nomally, I'd lean toward the mobile fighter archetype over the two-weapon warrior when considering a two-weapon fighter, but not always. A lot depends on what I want to do with the character:
A dwarf two-weapon warrior, with single level dips in barbarian and either cleric or inquisitor (Travel domain), has 40 ft speed in light or medium armor (30 ft in heavy) and (on reaching 9th level as a fighter), can use two dwarven waraxes as if one were a light weapon.
A half-orc (Toothy alternate racial trait) ranger only needs 15+ Dex to be a good two-weapon character (use the bonus Combat Style feats at 6th and 10th for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and either Greater Two-Weapon Fighting or Two-Weapon Rend); use of a double weapon (orc double axe is a martial weapon for half-orcs) allows you to switch between using it as a two-handed weapon (when moving) and attacking with both ends (when full attacking; with a bite from being Toothy), as well as being able to cast (lead blades, anyone?) without having to drop a weapon or use weapon cords.
If you want to tank as a two-weapon character, then the scimitar/light spiked shield/Improved Shield Bash route can work pretty well (although you give up a bit of DPR from the shield's poor critical stats); alternately, the falcata/buckler combination of the rondelero does almost as well DPR-wise (the falcata does better than the scimitar, but the buckler is worse than a bashing light spiked shield).
Note that there is no real need (IMO) for concentrating heavily in Dex; a 17 Dex is needed for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (unless a ranger using a Combat Style bonus feat), while Greater Two-Weapon Fighting is not worth boosting your Dex to 19. A starting Dex of 16 and one advancement (either at 4th or 8th level, depending on whether you want that extra off-hand attack at 6th/7th or 8th/9th) is all you really need to be a "viable" two-weapon character; you can concentrate the rest of your efforts on boosting Str.